Originally posted by Galan007
Well if there are no objections to the meta and street changes, I say we start revamping the herald tiers.A few proposed changes from me right off the bat:
Waverider either moves to trans or he's off the list entirely because he exceeds the parameters. Same with Infinity-Man.
Imperiex Probes to trans.
Superman to trans(yes, I said it)
Maxima to high herald
Orion to high herald
Wonder Woman to high herald
BRB to high herald
Hulk to high herald
Nate Grey to high herald [at least]
DoS Doomsday to high herald
Barry/Wally to high herald
Solomon Grundy to low herald
Terrax to low herald...And Firestorm to high herald is obviously a given [😖hifty:]
There are more, of course, but those stood out to me.
What say ye?
I'd vote against a fair few of those, so instead of muddying things up, I'm gonna not get involved.
I'm unsure about many of those, so I'll wait for a bit to think about them.
It depends based on what we see the line between tiers, which is a bit blurry for me at least. I see, for example, Thor and Beta Ray as a good example of how the tiers separate.
But, just to get rid of these -
@Galan
Infinity Man - do you interpret DOTNG version as him not being amped - since he was always empowered of the source? [not that his feats in general aren't ridiculous and justifiable on their own, but in that arc, he's at cosmic being level - I mean killing Black Racer? Fighting and tanking Scott [Anti-Life]'s attack destroying the Source Wall? Yeah..]. I do, but I'm curious.
Waverider - I agree, his control over time/energy is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
So, imo, both of them shouldn't even be in the tiers.
I see each tier as relatively fluid. IOW, Thor and BRB could both be high heralds, for example, but Thor would still edge Bill out in a forum fight more times than not. Doesn't change the fact that they are generally portrayed as peers. Flip side, I see the gap between tiers(say mid herald compared to high herald) as...pretty significant in most cases.
But I figured there would be resistance to some of the moves, which is totally fine(I'm actually glad to have discussions about them)... They were just some thoughts I initially had.
@Phil
I think DotNG IM was amped beyond his 'norm'.
well, i got a little time so i'll look through the lh tier at least:
characters i would consider moving:
apoc up to mh
argent down to hm
aztek maybe all the way down to mm unless someone has some actual feats for the guy...
cassie nova up to mh
the new damage should go up...?
darwin down to hm
dos dd up to hh
doom up to mh
forerunner down to hm
graviton up to mh
jack of hearts down to hm
manchester up to mh
monica up to mh
shadow king up to mh
ultron up to mh
and am i missing magneto...? i see ultimate mags, but not the 616 version? 😑
i'll look through the others tomorrow.
Originally posted by leonidas616 Magneto isn't on the master list for some reason. He should definitely be, though.
and am i missing magneto...? i see ultimate mags, but not the 616 version? 😑
I'm sure you and Phil have some thoughts about where he should be placed?
Originally posted by MrMindmmm
you guys might as well establish the skyfather tier too after you done with trans tier later 😛
ok, the mid-herald tier:
bill up to hh
zod up to hh
hulk up to hh
probes up to hh
kurse up to hh
metamorpho down to lh
nate up to hh
phoenix up to hh
grundy down to lh
supreme up to hh
waverider to hh (undecided if he should be higher--his power set is hard to counter for almost anyone so maybe)
ww up to hh
HIGH HERALD tier:
doomsday up to trans
infinity man unsure
moonstone wielders could be dropped to mh
swamp thing--unsure. should he still be here? hard power set to gauge.
TRANS tier:
should fate be trans if strange isn't?
have some questions about a couple others who i don't know. that trans tier just feels odd to me and always has. we can discuss it more later i guess but it feels like it needs more names and maybe some of those names need to be clarified a bit.
Okay, sooo...
My thoughts:
Overall:
I feel that the low-meta tier, especially, is getting things a bit murky. Say, we have Spectrum against the Hulk [Leo brought up a good point in the vs forum]. There's absolutely no way that she ever loses against the Hulk. Now, Hulk is proposed for the high herald - but let's just consider him mid. Do we move Spectrum up? Ok, then. Now what? Well, now we logically to move all of the similar level energy manipulators up:
- Dr Light [him & her]
- Dr. Polaris
- Graviton
- Lightray
- Magneto
- Vulcan
We see somebody like Magneto there, logically we should also move up Doom? Then, also, Kang. And Ultron.
Then we get into Apocalypse up?
What about Exodus?
Obviously, Manchester Black, too. Cassandra Nova, too.
etc.
Who is left to be the representative of the low-herald? Hercules? I see Darksaint has proposed to move him up. Ok then, do we move up Kalibak [Orion-level physicals + beta club]? Drax? He-Man? Mongul?
It's like dominos. Where do we stop? I feel, as before, that each tier should have a representative. Low-herald is left without one, the mid close to being filled by dozens from low-herald. The lines between low/mid/high are almost non-existent. I don't see a 'range' defined for either of them.
We should really make some of this less relative.
As for some of the proposed ones [but it might change, depending on how we move the rest]:
Metamorpho down to LH
- yes, easily.
Grundy down to LH
- he varies a lot, but yes.
Hulk to high herald, no
- sorry, but he's too limited. His lack of usage in tourneys is self-explanatory, but he really gets exposed in threads that don't have the opponent standing and punching with him [and not using their superspeed, mind you]. Is he a heavy favorite against many of the high-heralds if they use just their strength and durability? Sure. But that's not what the forum/tourneys are about.
DoS DD to high-herald, unsure
- I've thought about this quite a bit, and I'm on the edge due to one thing - adaptability.
https://imgur.com/a/OasNTHq
In my mind, I don't see a being that's just a strong and durable non-flying brick [see above] as being a high herald, not when there's so characters with a dozen options. But given all the options are basically 'energy' [which DD can adapt] or high-end superspeed [which DD has], I see a good case could be made for him.
Him being low-herald right now is hilarious, though. I'm going to pass on this for now.
BRB to high herald, unsure
- I've really thought about it, and I don't think he has that 'extra gear' to go into high-herald. I see akin to somebody like John Stewart [mid] compared to somebody like Thor/Kyle [high. I didn't put Hal here because it's too blatant]. But I'll wait.
Maxima to high-herald, yes
- 'Wonder Woman'-ish physicals, with high-end TP and high-end TK.
Orion to high-herald, yes
- I don't think there's much that needs to be said here, except how is he not already there? Astro force + motherbox is...insane.
Wonder Woman to high-herald, yes
- Yes. Ever since New 52 [so, for the last 8 years] she's been on a rampage, and the lasso's soul stealing and other crazy stuff push her there. .
Barry/Wally to high-herald, yes
- Yes. Virtually impossible to beat on the forum/tourney.
Imperiex Probes to trans tier, yes
- OWAW speaks for itself. Individually, they were above any single hero without plot-devices, and were steamrolling teams of them [even those of big 7, minus Superman].
Superman to trans-tier, agree
- there's a lot to say here, but it would take too much space, suffice he has skyrocketed in every category imaginable [for reference, these tiers were done for the mid 2000s]. Ever since then, after Infinite Crisis and culminating in the Final Crisis period, where he really started going towards the "skyfathers who?" portrayals, followed by the New 52 [where has has legitimate insane feats, and he's even directly, quantifiably stated to be more powerful than all of the other heroes combined], then both these versions got merged for an even more powerful one [that's about to face Dr. Manhattan, for reference], he's on an absurd feat-fest. He's at the point where he has showings where you can argue anything for him.
i'm ok with hulk NOT going to hh, but at marvel, he does seem to be the guy right now, surpassing pretty well everyone. his tier does not seem representative of his status at marvel if that makes sense. should it?
and i agree whole-heartedly with the domino effect. do we just list someone we think epitomizes a tier and just ask how many would someone win or lose against him? if it's a split they stay in the tier, if they dominate we move up, if they get dominated we move them down? i dunno. this is why the thread was so hard to build in the first place and why the idea of a GENERAL guideline really was the goal. over the years this list has been cited by a LOT of people and a lot of forums but it still bears repeating--it's a GUIDE. we don't have to be perfect here so maybe LESS change is ultimately better...?
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm ok with hulk NOT going to hh, but at marvel, he does seem to be the guy right now, surpassing pretty well everyone. his tier does not seem representative of his status at marvel if that makes sense. should it?and i agree whole-heartedly with the domino effect. do we just list someone we think epitomizes a tier and just ask how many would someone win or lose against him? if it's a split they stay in the tier, if they dominate we move up, if they get dominated we move them down? i dunno. this is why the thread was so hard to build in the first place and why the idea of a GENERAL guideline really was the goal. over the years this list has been cited by a LOT of people and a lot of forums but it still bears repeating--it's a GUIDE. we don't have to be perfect here so maybe LESS change is ultimately better...?
I agree with all of this. I'd think that the tiers are for the forum/tourneys, not for the comic books standings, because we use it for the former.
I'll throw out some names that, imo, are representative for the tiers:
low-herald: Magneto, Hercules, Exodus
- so that would be physical, tp/tk, and energy manipulation overview.
mid-herald: GLs [John/Guy], Beta Ray Bill [or, say, Black Adam since Bill is in contention], Martian Manhunter
- it's like the ones above, but more raw power and/or more options.
high-herald: GLs [Hal/Kyle], Thor, Surfer
- it's like the ones above, but cream of the tier
Of course, there's exceptions [specifically, the ones involving TP/Speed, which can one-shot people no matter the tier], but as a general guideline, imo.
Once we reach a consensus on the 5-6 representatives, it's eyeballing it in a "would he fit better in a tourney with that tier, or that tier, considering those are there?".
To get as an example on how I think: Hulk [he's the most obvious, and I don't want to think of another just not to piss other people off, lol]. He's out of his depth against the high-herald, as there's nothing he could do. Out of mid, too much versatility to do anything to two of them [GLs/J'onn] and he'd be hard pressed to deal with Adam's speed/mobility. In low, he'd likely beat Hercules/Exodus, but lose to Magneto [imo]. So he'd fit best there.
Ok, so I agree with leaving BRB in mid-herald. The gap between mids and highs is going to be mostly linked to high showings vs high showings and people shown as peers in everything else.
I'm not for bumping Superman to trans because this list is not for comicbook appearances but for tourneys. I don't think Kal has even been a very demanded character in tournaments so bumping him to trans is unwarranted. The reasons are similar to those keeping Hulk in mid-herald.
So a few votes:
Hulk remains mid-herald
Superman remains high-herald
Barry/Wally bumped up to High herald.
Stardust to mid-herald.
Orion to high-herald
Wonder Woman to high-herald.
Metamorpho to low-herald.
Zod to mid-herald (a reasoning similar to Kal remaining where he is).
Ultron to mid-herald
Superman, I'd think that he's not used to due weaknesses [red sun/magic], and not due to raw capability. I don't know if they're taken into consideration for the rankings, but in that case J'onn has such a common one [fire] it's hard to ever use him and justify his placement, for example, and there's many such cases.
I'm not going to insist with it other than this, but Superman being above other kryptonians due to having better high-end feats is underselling it, imo. It's not just about the physical stats [which - I can't stress this enough - are almost Pre-Crisis level].
But his functional powerset is, in essence, completely different [in a tourney setting] from somebody like Zod. Some examples:
- he doesn't just hear things, he can hear the frequencies of the Multiverse, and can effectively erase somebody from existence by screaming the counter-frequency. He doesn't just have good vision, he can see the soul, emotional spectrum, an dmore.
- he doesn't just freeze-breath ice, he freezes the brain of planets who consume suns, freeze intangible beings, freeze chronal particles [https://imgur.com/a/qGY02vv], manipulate the weather to create hurricanes and much more.
- his X-Ray vision isn't just to see things, he can deflect multiple-planet worth of EM energy.]. And he can generate electromagnetic spectrum radiation from them, too [emp, microwaves, gamma etc.].
- his heat vision isn't just a glorified laser, it has one shot trans beings [Despero], it has destroyed shields that the rest of the heroes combined couldn't [Darkseid], has matched everything from Omega-Beams to Astro Force, has worked at the heat-death of the Universe, can use it internally, has overpowered Hal's [yes..] output etc.
- he is not just invulnerable, his brain can take an exploding tesseract and crush kryptonians inside of it, can resist tk, can resist cosmic transmutations, dna changes etc.
- he isn't just smart, he can reconstruct the entirety of the Miracle Machine from memory, bottle the whole Universe, create pocket Universes, his mind works better than the best computers etc.
- his showings against trans and abstract level opponents are frequent, consistent and ridiculous impressive, too.
etc.
Bottom line: I'd take Superman against many in the trans tier, in a forum/tourney setting. He's sooo far above a "super fast flying brick with heat vision" in terms of both raw physicals and application and range of power, that he makes 'normal' kryptonians look paraplegic.
But....I recognize my bias, so I can understand why others don't see it this way.
Aaaaanyway, I will try to vote for everything, given the consensus.