Originally posted by PhilBias or not, what you said here is all true. As mentioned, I definitely support Superman bumping up to trans.
Superman, I'd think that he's not used to due weaknesses [red sun/magic], and not due to raw capability. I don't know if they're taken into consideration for the rankings, but in that case J'onn has such a common one [fire] it's hard to ever use him and justify his placement, for example, and there's many such cases.I'm not going to insist with it other than this, but Superman being above other kryptonians due to having better high-end feats is underselling it, imo. It's not just about the physical stats [which - I can't stress this enough - are almost Pre-Crisis level].
But his functional powerset is, in essence, completely different [in a tourney setting] from somebody like Zod. Some examples:
- he doesn't just hear things, he can hear the frequencies of the Multiverse, and can effectively erase somebody from existence by screaming the counter-frequency. He doesn't just have good vision, he can see the soul, emotional spectrum, an dmore.
- he doesn't just freeze-breath ice, he freezes the brain of planets who consume suns, freeze intangible beings, freeze chronal particles [https://imgur.com/a/qGY02vv], manipulate the weather to create hurricanes and much more.
- his X-Ray vision isn't just to see things, he can deflect multiple-planet worth of EM energy.]. And he can generate electromagnetic spectrum radiation from them, too [emp, microwaves, gamma etc.].
- his heat vision isn't just a glorified laser, it has one shot trans beings [Despero], it has destroyed shields that the rest of the heroes combined couldn't [Darkseid], has matched everything from Omega-Beams to Astro Force, has worked at the heat-death of the Universe, can use it internally, has overpowered Hal's [yes..] output etc.
- he is not just invulnerable, his brain can take an exploding tesseract and crush kryptonians inside of it, can resist tk, can resist cosmic transmutations, dna changes etc.
- he isn't just smart, he can reconstruct the entirety of the Miracle Machine from memory, bottle the whole Universe, create pocket Universes, his mind works better than the best computers etc.
- his showings against trans and abstract level opponents are frequent, consistent and ridiculous impressive, too.
etc.
Bottom line: I'd take Superman against many in the trans tier, in a forum/tourney setting. He's sooo far above a "super fast flying brick with heat vision" in terms of both raw physicals and application and range of power, that he makes 'normal' kryptonians look paraplegic.
But....I recognize my bias, so I can understand why others don't see it this way.
Aaaaanyway, I will try to vote for everything, given the consensus.
I'd be more curious to hear why some don't think he should move up..?
for me it's more a matter of getting rid of the highest showings and looking at where he usually pans out through all showings. we don't say superman consistently operates at the levels phil was bringing up. that doesn't mean he doesn't have a gear that other heralds don't--clearly he does. it also doesn't mean he can't beat some of the trans tier guys--he certainly can. but he doesn't use that gear all the time because it's in his character to hold back. were we making a list where character wasn't taken into account, and we were listing based only on power set, then i'd say sure. to me he remains the top of the herald tier though. someone like prime defines the trans tier to me. we could argue superman vs prime, but i think in general prime is still beyond at least the standard operating superman. /shrug
I think he has a good shout to be trans. But then, all those at the edges of HH should have a good shout.
For me, sure, as the top dog in DC, with 10 issues every week, he collects all the high feats. But he also collects the low featsm which we cannot ignore.
The trans tier, for me, is for threats which take multiple heroes to beat.
Conversely, if Supes went evil...would we need teams of heralds to bring him down? Philo mentioned Despero - we mustn't forget V&V Despero who casually smacked his skull against Billy, for example.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Yes. This is well documented, and shown.
The trans tier, for me, is for threats which take multiple heroes to beat.Conversely, if Supes went evil...would we need teams of heralds to bring him down?
In fact, he's the one who beats guys that beat teams of heroes [Darkseid, DD, Imperiex Probes, etc.].
---
Anyhow, I feel like this is one of those things that will be forever set in stone, no matter the showings.
On one hand, we have the Flash at high herald.
The guy who, technically, has low showings like 98% of his appearances.
But, to justify his position, we take his high showings, and ignore that he doesn't operate at that level for anywhere near a significant fraction.
On the other hand, we have Superman.
And we wave away all of his consistent feats and battles, and say "what about the low showings?"
That's my cue that this won't ever budge.
@Leo. I think his holding back is, in a vs forum thread, basically 'he won't kill' but still operates at 'full capacity', so it shouldn't restrain him much other than he won't fly through opponents or erase them from existence. In a tourney, not even that would matter. It depends what we rank. Agree to disagree.
We should make a list to vote, with all the proposed changes. That way we get a better overview, and we adjust our votes better.
Short answer is, I can see a good argument for Superman to be trans level.
But that should be the case for all HHs at the high extremes of the range....Just like an argument can be made for the 'lower' HHs to be mid heralds.
@Philo regarding teams: it's more single heroes are deployed against him. Marvel (I know I know, non canon Kingdom Come), WW.....
I think for him to become trans, we would need to see his other powers used more frequently. You used the Flashes as an example....But speed is an inherent property to them. If we REALLY used their full bag of tricks, then we're talking about time travelling clones who all IMP and speedsteal can cause Flashpoints.
But most of the time, they run and punch really fast. As does Superman. And there's a reason people mostly think his HV is just a glorified laser (not us, obv). Because most of the time, that's what it's used for.
And most of the time, the Flashes just run really quickly. Not excusing their 90%of low showings, but rather excusing their 90%of unimaginative power use.
If you think of the Flashes are solidly HH, then Superman is at the high end. So their speed (ish), coupled with all his other attacks. Which feels right to me.
I disagree, I don't think there's any 'high-heralds' at the extremes of the range that could be argued to be trans. I feel this is just as generic of a statement as "Superman has low showings, so we ignore the fact that he is trans. Shhh about Flash".
I'd give examples [how does Superman do against Darkseid [non-abstract]? How do the rest of the HH do against Thanos? How does Superman do against Doomsday [ri[[ed in half], how do the rest of the heroes do against him [specifically unable to last more than minutes at best]? How does Superman do against Imperiex Probes, how do the rest of the heroes do? How does Superman do against Infinity Man [abstract-leve]? How does the combined New Gods Patheon do? etc. etc.], but this point, I'm lost on the criteria, since there seems to be one for Superman, and another for the rest.
Clark is judged based on a subjective average within a comic book, while Flash is judged on 2% of his showings and full fledged abilities.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I really don't want to do this, since I like Flash..
I think for him to become trans, we would need to see his other powers used more frequently. You used the Flashes as an example....But speed is an inherent property to them. If we REALLY used their full bag of tricks, then we're talking about time travelling clones who all IMP and speedsteal can cause Flashpoints.But most of the time, they run and punch really fast. As does Superman.
And most of the time, the Flashes just run really quickly. Not excusing their 90%of low showings, but rather excusing their 90%of unimaginative power use.
But...
This is an absurd double standard.
So you excuse Flash being 98% of the time just a guy that runs and throws flurries of punches that are ineffectual [so, in essence, his showings barely put him at low-herald/high meta 98% of the time], and still place him on high herald, but Superman is the one who needs to show his range of power more frequently?
A Flash fan? Arguing that we need extreme frequency of capabilities?
A Flash fan? Arguing comic portrayals?
Whaaaaaa?
Flash IS argued to throw IMPs both in the forum and tourneys.
Flash IS argued to speed-steal both in the forum and tourneys
Flash IS argued to time-travel [LITERALLY YOU DID!] in the tourneys, when it's not banned.
Superman has more showings to justify, in every category, than Flash has IMPs/speed steal combined.
Saaaaaint?
Furthermore, this tier is for two situations:
1). Vs forum threads
2). Tourneys
In the first, we have the 'full capacity' rule.
In the second, we're in complete control.
Frequency is completely irrelevant for latter since we're in complete control, and the full capacity assures that Superman [a super-genius, mind you] would be fighting at his best, for the first.
Aaaaanyway, I really think Flash should be high-herald [for the same reason I think Superman is trans] but... if we keep changing the standards...hell, in that case, I might disagree with many of the stuff here.
@Philo regarding teams: it's more single heroes are deployed against him. Marvel (I know I know, non canon Kingdom Come), WW.....It's really not, though. Besides, as I've said, Superman beating/matching team-busters or higher and in some case roflstomping them[Darkseid, Imperiex Probes, Doomsday, Disciple etc.], Superman is consistently said and shown to take on whole teams - King of the World [extended JLA], CSA [Trinity], S/B arc [where he one-shots Despero] where he takes dozens of heroes etc. Batman, himself, has admitted that it would take all of them to fight him, more than once.
But again, we're moving into comics. Which one is it? Tourney-mode and forum/full capabilities, or comic book portrayals?
you raise a valid point. i don't think i was really looking at the list as being just for tourneys--it's become a lot more than that around here and around the interwebz. should we be looking at powerset alone for this? not sure about that.
the flash argument is a tough one. based on phil's criteria for superman, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that flash could exceed the trans tier. after all, phil you were the one who said flash is the only herald who could beat a non-holding back superman when i asked that question some time ago in the forum. thing is with flash holding back he is STILL a hh imo.
i dunno. maybe we gotta come up with a clearer description of how we're ranking? if it is as you say just tourneys, well, that is basically powerset alone and would likely change a few people's placements.
My two cents-
No one else in the high herald tier has operated above their weight class as consistently as Superman has(especially over the last 10ish years.) He operates on such a level, so routinely, that it has legitimately almost become his 'norm' at this point.
If any other herald-leveler operated outside their weight class as often as Superman does, I'd be arguing for them to bump up as well... But no one else does. Sure, most heralds get a very high-end feat here and there(every few years or so), but Superman acquires them all the time. For me, the sheer frequency of Superman's high-end feats(compared to the relatively few 'lows' he has) is enough to warrant him being bumped up a tier. /shrug
not gonna interrupt you guys discussion here, most of the list are very on point. But just gonna put in my 2 cents and be out of the way
I wholehearted agree with Galan and Phil on this.
When I see the cream of the topHigh Herald I see someone like Mr Majestic, Hal Jordan. Or someone who benefit tremendously in a forum setting like the Flash (Speed) or Surfer (Versatility)
This is what the best of Herald level are capable of, Majestic can rearrange solar system, has nano second reaction time, has weaponry that can cut through everything in the universe, being the best fighter in the universe, subatomic programming via manipulate photons with eye beams
Hal Jordan is another one, who can easily be argued above Herald level. Since Johns pick up Hal story like 13 years ago he has been wanking Hal non stop. Hal’s will power rival the entire central battery of OA. He kills Krona a above skyfather level being that possess all the emotional entities. You think moving planet, splitting atom is impressive? You think containing black hole or even the energy of big bang with construct is impressive? Well someone like Kyle Rayner can do all that, yet Hal is even more powerful than him. I’m not even gonna get into Flash and Surfer since there’s too much to talk about on that
But the point is, Superman is above all of them, he’s above the best herald level characters by a mile. More than half you guys on this forum are more familiar with superman’s feats than me. But even someone who dont read superman comics like me knows, just recent years, he benched press the weight of the earth for 5 days straight without breaking a sweat (retarded feat but ridiculous nonetheless) , he repaired million pieces of the freaking moon peace by peace in like 10 seconds. Or years before when he tanked the force of 50 supernovas point blank. That one time he hold a black hole in his hand. Too many to names. Of course he has many low feats and mediocre too, being a character who appears in too many comics with too many writers don’t completely understand his power or sacrifice his power for the sake of the story.
But I think when we look at a character, we don’t cut out his top feats and lowest feats. We don’t compare their average. We compare their best first, and then their average, and then their low PIS jobbing feats. The priority should always be what can he do when he is at his max.
Originally posted by leonidasI've always seen Flash as beating Superman due to speed steal, but that's a very specific match-up, on a very specific ability. Kind of like Xavier would probably beat H/P Doomsday due to telepathy, or whatnot.
you raise a valid point. i don't think i was really looking at the list as being just for tourneys--it's become a lot more than that around here and around the interwebz. should we be looking at powerset alone for this? not sure about that.the flash argument is a tough one. based on phil's criteria for superman, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that flash could exceed the trans tier. after all, phil you were the one who said flash is the only herald who could beat a non-holding back superman when i asked that question some time ago in the forum. thing is with flash holding back he is STILL a hh imo.
i dunno. maybe we gotta come up with a clearer description of how we're ranking? if it is as you say just tourneys, well, that is basically powerset alone and would likely change a few people's placements.
Originally posted by leonidas👆
i dunno. maybe we gotta come up with a clearer description of how we're ranking? if it is as you say just tourneys, well, that is basically powerset alone and would likely change a few people's placements.
We need to have a standard for everyone, not selectively. I think the tier was for us, mostly, and the rules of full capacity/tourneys are specifically our forum.
but flash could use that ability on anyone, in theory, and win. at full capacity, using powerset as the gauge, he WOULD do so, before anyone in the herald or trans tier could even react. and at full capacity, hal can do....pretty well anything--certainly beat many or even most trans, and he's been operating at insane levels over the last couple years as well. by powerset, i'd say flash and hal should both be trans. for that matter, thor could be too, at least the classic version.
i dunno, this just seems like a slippery slope if we're going on powerset/tourney-style rankings. if we put superman in trans, i'm fine with it, and see the reasoning. i'm just not sure there aren't others we can elevate making use of the same reasoning.
I feel like I'm creating future arguments for the Marvel fans to use, lol.
These are all my opinions, obviously, so don't treat it as me trying to argue, but I want to clarify my position.
In regards to Flash's speed stealing, I'd rather not say anything here, for obvious reasons [keep it from prying eyes, sort to speak] and I will send you a message on Fb. It's not an automatic win. But yes, his speed is certainly a handful for many, I don't disagree with that. But, then we have Superman, who is basically Flash without the speed-steal, but with actual in-comic book trans formidability and dozens of other high-end options. It's like saying Super Skrull is in the same tier as Mr. Fantastic.
My problem with the Flash is that he exemplifies somebody held at a different standard [ridiculously so] compared to Superman. When Superman is involved, we suddenly talk about 'low showings' and subjective 'averages', when Flash [and the rest] are nowhere near his average or high end, both in comics and on the forum, but we omit that and rank them based on their 'full capacity' [i.e. forum rules] or tourney-rules [we literally use whatever feat we want]
As for the other two - yes, Hal is certainly uber for the last period, but I don't think he is trans [unless we include Pre-Crisis absurdities]. I hate to bring up Prime, but he exemplifies what happens when he goes out of his tier [http://i.imgur.com/vxnErXy.jpg] He has impressive raw power and versatility, but he can be overwhelmed once you get through his defense - Orion [high herald] showed this [https://imgur.com/a/MpTYmzh] and Zod [mid-herald?] showed this [https://imgur.com/a/nVlk8PF] [that's why he was smart in the rematch and kept the distance/used misdirection]. His output is at its highest end ridiculous [Krona, Amazo] but that's assuming he gets the chance to hit the opponent with it. Since we're at the topic of Superman, he has no-sold Hal's all-out blast [https://imgur.com/a/2rnww7O] and has flat-out overpowered and gave him in a concussion in their latest fight [https://imgur.com/a/RPZ0I5o] and once super-speed is used, well.. https://imgur.com/a/oswAWpi
I'm not saying it couldn't be argued that he might beat some of the more limited ones [say, Mangog with a krona-buster, and I don't even want to get into that...lol] but generally, he's out of his depth there.
Speaking of which --- are we sure we want to keep Sentinel at trans-tier? Just a though.
And, on the topic of things that would open the floodgates, imo, Thor is versatile as hell [just like Hal], but their externalized power [ring/mjolnir] makes them vulnerable once they're bypassed, while his damaging attacks [godblast] would never get the chance to actually hit in a non-story form where the opponent is not standing still [i.e. tourney/forum] and, even moreso, many of those there can actually tank it.
As in Hal's case, that doesn't mean you couldn't put him against someone at trans and try to argue he'd beat them. But generally [Thanos, consistently, Sentry, consistently etc.] he is a step below them.
And, as Galan said -- consistency, is something that Superman has.
Just imo *dodges bullets*
---
Anyway - the deal with Supes is done [I think we're 3 [leo, saint, bentley] vs 2 [me, galan]], so unless someone suddenly changes his vote, which would be unlikely, I think we should move on to actual votes on ALL of them, to get the bigger picture. Somebody want to compile all the characters discussed in these last few pages? If not, I'll do it, but probably sometime tomorrow.
Alright, so I suggest we all vote one more time for all of this, considering we have all of the proposed changes.
Here's the template:
- Out of the list entirely -
Waverider - yes [phil], if no where [currently mid, lol]?
Infinity Man - yes [phil], if no where [currently high]?
- to Trans -
Superman up -
Imperiex Probes up - but there's another vote for high herald [currently mid]
Doomsday [Gog Wars] up -
My new proposal: Swamp Thing to trans -
- to High Herald -
Maxima up -
Wonder Woman up -
Doomsday (DoS) up - but there's another vote for mid herald [currently low]
Orion up -
Nate Grey up -
Zod up -
BRB up -
Hulk up -
Kurse up -
Rachel [PF] up -
Barry/Wally up -
Firestorm up -
The Atom [Palmer] up -
- to Mid Herald -
My new proposal: Stardust down to mid -
Damage [current] up to mid -
Manchester Black up to mid -
Cassandra Nova up to mid -
Shadow King up to mid -
Exodus up to mid -
Magneto up to mid -
Doom up to mid -
Kang up to mid -
Graviton up to mid -
Spectrum [Monica] up to mid -
Lightray up to mid -
Dr Light [him/her] up to mid -
Vulcan up to mid -
Ultron up to mid -
Moonstone wielders down to mid -
He-Man up to mid -
Hercules up to mid -
Mongul up to mid -
Kalibak up to mid -
Apoc up to mid -
- to Low Herald -
My new proposal: Ikaris down to low-
Terrax to low -
Captain Comet to low -
Solomon Grundy to low -
Metamorpho to low -
- to High Meta -
Forerunner down to hm -
Aztek down to hm -
Darwin down to high -
Jack of Heart down to high -
Argent down to high -
