Originally posted by JesusIsAliveNature abhors a vacuum and will always fill it with something or pull something from somewhere to fill it.
But...you stated,How can nothingness be unstable much less erupt into something if nothingness does not have space or time? Besides, there really is no such animal as space or time because space and time are reckoned together (i.e. space-time). In addition, instability is the product of energy; hence, there is energy and energy is something.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But...you stated,How can nothingness be unstable much less erupt into something if nothingness does not have space or time? Besides, there really is no such animal as space or time because space and time are reckoned together (i.e. space-time). In addition, instability is the product of energy; hence, there is energy and energy is something.
I was keeping it simple for you.
Nothingness is so unstable that is always becomes something.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Exactly.
And that is how nothingness becomes something.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
This universe is such an involved/complicated system that it is not plausible for it to be an eternal, independent, self-made construct.
That is a good point, but what I am saying is that perhaps there was never a "real" beginning, and maybe there will never be a real end. Many scientists are lead to the conclusion that our "big bang" was not the only one, but rather one in a series of infinite big bangs which are followed by what we call "big crunches".
To me, it makes more sense that the universe exists in a cycle, like pretty much everything within it. There are beginnings and endings, but within an infinite cycle.
I beleive existence is circular, not linear. A circle has no beginning or end. I hope that makes sense. It shouldn't be such a far fetched idea, since your idea of God is infinite.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Moreover, the universe is an impersonal entity whereas God--based on the Scriptures--is the all-intelligent/knowing, all-present, all-powerful Creator. There is no comparison between the two.
That is true, but so is nature. Nature is also impersonal, but it pretty much determines everything.
The Biblical God is too human, and no offense, but he is also too limitted for a supposedly unlimitted being.
I am not saying that the Universe is a deity, but since no actual human is eternal, i doubt a human like being would be eternal.
God being all knowing and all present would be a contradiction, as discussed in other threads. If God were all knowing, he would know the future, and thus free will would be a fluke. If he was omni present, that means he would exist in Hell as well, but if he is all Holy and pure, he couldn't possibly exist in Hell. So that doesn't make sense.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It is believable that the Creator of a thing must precede the thing created. But, God needs no one to come to His defense; however, I would like to say that the there must be a point where all things start and finish. That point is God. I have no problem avowing this fact.
1) Please see my first post.
2) What you claim is not fact, but opinion. Please remember the difference.
Originally posted by Templares
No one knows for sure-yet - but there is no need to cop out to supernatural explanations with zero explanatory power and resign to ignorance by saying simply that "god did it" or "its magic".It could be that this "vacuum" or state of nothingness IS the First Cause. Compared to the Christian God, it makes LESS baseless assumptions, not to mention this state of nothingness and similar like it have been observed, experimented upon - generally known to exist - which makes it more credible and probable.
Hell, the Christian god's very existence itself is in doubt which is why youre pathetically using the circular argument of First Cause to prove its existence. Prove first by credible outside means that your god exist (credible, as in NOT through blind faith) before attaching baseless assumptions like so and so is the First cause and is the Creator of the Universe.
There is no way to prove that God exists. God is a Spirit; hence, He is not visible to the naked eye.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Nature abhors a vacuum and will always fill it with something or pull something from somewhere to fill it.
Nature is the law (or laws) of God (i.e. ordained, created, and originated by God) in force. Nature is not some self-made presence that orders the universe. Nature is not some self-created entity that governs life. It is simply a product of God's sublime wisdom. This is all nature is. In other words, nature is God's employee (without benefits of course).
I've already addressed the argument of free will before--following that line of reasoning, God Himself would not have free will because He would know from the beginning what He would do in the future, and He could not go against what He knew that He would do...therefore, God would have no free will.
As in, the argument falls apart.
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
That is a good point, but what I am saying is that perhaps there was never a "real" beginning, and maybe there will never be a real end. Many scientists are lead to the conclusion that our "big bang" was not the only one, but rather one in a series of infinite big bangs which are followed by what we call "big crunches".To me, it makes more sense that the universe exists in a cycle, like pretty much everything within it. There are beginnings and endings, but within an infinite cycle.
I beleive existence is circular, not linear. A circle has no beginning or end. I hope that makes sense. It shouldn't be such a far fetched idea, since your idea of God is infinite.
That is true, but so is nature. Nature is also impersonal, but it pretty much determines everything.
The Biblical God is too human, and no offense, but he is also too limitted for a supposedly unlimitted being.
I am not saying that the Universe is a deity, but since no actual human is eternal, i doubt a human like being would be eternal.
God being all knowing and all present would be a contradiction, as discussed in other threads. If God were all knowing, he would know the future, and thus free will would be a fluke. If he was omni present, that means he would exist in Hell as well, but if he is all Holy and pure, he couldn't possibly exist in Hell. So that doesn't make sense.
1) Please see my first post.
2) What you claim is not fact, but opinion. Please remember the difference.
That is a good point, but what I am saying is that perhaps there was never a "real" beginning, and maybe there will never be a real end. Many scientists are lead to the conclusion that our "big bang" was not the only one, but rather one in a series of infinite big bangs which are followed by what we call "big crunches".
To me, it makes more sense that the universe exists in a cycle, like pretty much everything within it. There are beginnings and endings, but within an infinite cycle.
I beleive existence is circular, not linear. A circle has no beginning or end. I hope that makes sense. It shouldn't be such a far fetched idea, since your idea of God is infinite.
Isn't it enlightening that gravity pulls objects toward the earth regardless of what anyone believes? Similarly, God has already revealed to humanity how this universe came into existence and yet we still say things like, "I believe...so on and so forth. But I do hear you and understand what you mean and where you are coming from.
That is true, but so is nature. Nature is also impersonal, but it pretty much determines everything.
The Biblical God is too human, and no offense, but he is also too limitted for a supposedly unlimitted being.
I am not saying that the Universe is a deity, but since no actual human is eternal, i doubt a human like being would be eternal.
God being all knowing and all present would be a contradiction, as discussed in other threads. If God were all knowing, he would know the future, and thus free will would be a fluke. If he was omni present, that means he would exist in Hell as well, but if he is all Holy and pure, he couldn't possibly exist in Hell. So that doesn't make sense.
God only appears human to you because you, me, and the rest of humanity were created/made in God's image and likeness. God has given the human race many of His attributes i.e. free will, a rational mind, the ability to exercise dominion, etc. unlike the animal kingdom. God is not at all human. If God were human there never would have been these verses of Scripture:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
Humans are vindictive, selfish, money-loving, hateful, creatures. On the other hand, God is love. God didn't have to lift a finger to save wretched, ungrateful sinners like us from eternal damnation and yet He went out of His way to provide (not everyone will accept) salvation for the world (i.e. Asians Blacks, Hispanics, Natives, Whites, and everyone else). Many will reject God's gift of love wrapped up in the Person of Jesus.
1) Please see my first post.
2) What you claim is not fact, but opinion. Please remember the difference.
What do you claim that I claim? I don't know that I claim anything as such, but I do present what the Scriptures reveal.
Originally posted by AngryManatee
If it is proof of a god's existence, then why do you have faith? Belief on the basis of evidence is not faith.Concerning your black holes statement, black holes are not just nothing. How would nothing be able to generate such an intense gravity field? If not a singularity, then at least perhaps a huge amount of mass compressed to an astronomical density.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Uh...I believe that it is the other way around. Something becomes nothing (virtually), not comes from nothing. Stars supposedly burn out to form black holes.Although in God's creative work something does come from nothing. God is the only one Who can create something from nothing.
I said "virtually" nothing not nothing.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You have the cart before the horse. How can nothingness exist unless it is [B]already "something?" [/B]
Nothingness cannot exist. That is why the universe does exist. I know what your problem is, you keep thinking of before, and there is no before. Nothingness does not have time. The universe is eternal, because nothingness is unstable.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Nothingness cannot exist. That is why the universe does exist. I know what your problem is, you keep thinking of before, and there is no before. Nothingness does not have time. The universe is eternal, because nothingness is unstable.
Nothingness cannot be unstable if it does not exist. You said that nothingness does not exist (out of one side of your mouth), and that nothingness is eternal because it is unstable (out of the other corner of your mouth. I detect duplicity). Which is it? Either nothingness does not exist (in this case it cannot be unstable) or nothingness is eternal (which is a catch-22 because how can nothingness be eternal, think about it).
What say you?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I've already addressed the argument of free will before--following that line of reasoning, God Himself would not have free will because He would know from the beginning what He would do in the future, and He could not go against what He knew that He would do...therefore, God would have no free will.As in, the argument falls apart.
Wrong. 👇
If God is beyond time, then he does not exist within the bounds of time, and therefore could know the past, present, and future while retaining his free will.
However, for us who exist within the bounds of time, if the past, present, and future are already determined, then we have no true free will...because there is no other possibility...only the one timeline which God knows in and out, thus rendering choice a fluke.
Nice try though
Isn't it enlightening that gravity pulls objects toward the earth regardless of what anyone believes? Similarly, God has already revealed to humanity how this universe came into existence and yet we still say things like, "I believe...so on and so forth. But I do hear you and understand what you mean and where you are coming from.
Gravity has been proven though.
The Bible story of creation is not proven, nor does it contain anywhere the amount of evidence that gravity has. So you can't really compare the two JIA.
God only appears human to you because you, me, and the rest of humanity were created/made in God's image and likeness. God has given the human race many of His attributes i.e. free will, a rational mind, the ability to exercise dominion, etc. unlike the animal kingdom. God is not at all human. If God were human there never would have been these verses of Scripture:
God possesses anger, jealousy, rage, judgement, love, favoritism, bias, etc. He is very human according to the Bible. He acts like a human, a rather immature one at that..but that's another argument.
God, as written in the Bible, is very human. I didn't say he literally is a human, but his spirit is no different than that of a human's.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
Why are you quoting those passages ? It has nothing to do with our conversation....
Humans are vindictive, selfish, money-loving, hateful, creatures. On the other hand, God is love. God didn't have to lift a finger to save wretched, ungrateful sinners like us from eternal damnation and yet He went out of His way to provide (not everyone will accept) salvation for the world (i.e. Asians Blacks, Hispanics, Natives, Whites, and everyone else). Many will reject God's gift of love wrapped up in the Person of Jesus.
If God was love he would not have:
-burnt down two cities killing men, women, and children
-produced the Great Flood which was mass genocide
-banished Adam and Eve to hard lives, because they broke one rule
-banishes those who do not believe in him to Hell
-ordered the torture of his own son, simply so he wouldn't torture everyone else
-kill the first born sons of Egypt
-send other plagues of starvation and illness upon Egypt
-burn a woman to ash because she looked back at her home city
and so on.
The God of the Bible is immature, and has killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined. So please re-evaluate what you personify as love.
What do you claim that I claim? I don't know that I claim anything as such, but I do present what the Scriptures reveal.
You cannot claim a belief as fact. You referred to your last belief as a fact.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Nothingness cannot be unstable if it does not exist. You said that nothingness does not exist (out of one side of your mouth), and that nothingness is eternal because it is unstable (out of the other corner of your mouth. I detect duplicity). Which is it? Either nothingness does not exist (in this case it cannot be unstable) or nothingness is eternal (which is a catch-22 because how can nothingness be eternal, think about it).What say you?
I said:
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Nothingness cannot exist. That is why the universe does exist. I know what your problem is, you keep thinking of before, and there is no before. Nothingness does not have time. The universe is eternal, because nothingness is unstable.
Nothingness does not exist, and that the Universe is eternal. The universe is not nothingness, and nothingness is not something.
Why is there something in the cosmos instead of nothingness?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is no way to prove that God exists. God is a Spirit; hence, He is not visible to the naked eye.
Again another baseless assumption. Show credible evidence first - and it doesnt have to be through the naked eye - that supernatural spirits exist before using it as an explanation to something else. Youre explaining an unknown(Christian God) with an another unknown(spirit).
Just admit that there is NO WAY TO PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS because he is just a make-believe, imaginary being.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveNo this is your assumption but this goes against what you have said before and you are now contradicting yourself again. You could also say that nature is governed by some lady with twigs in her hair and both statements have the same amount of validity.
Nature is the law (or laws) of God (i.e. ordained, created, and originated by God) in force. Nature is not some self-made presence that orders the universe. Nature is not some self-created entity that governs life. It is simply a product of God's sublime wisdom. This is all nature is. In other words, nature is God's employee (without benefits of course).