Originally posted by Templares
Paradigm shift? 😆 😆 😆 Bwahaha.Just a fancy way of saying JUST BELIEVE EVEN THOUGH THE EVIDENCE IS LACKING.
*cough*blind faith*cough*
Like all imaginary beings like the Easter bunny, god is none-existant unless the evidence proves otherwise.
There are many things that exist that have never been proven. The problem is that you are trained to believe only what you can see. This is why I said that you should have a paradigm shift.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are many things that exist that have never been proven. The problem is that you are trained to believe only what you can see.
I am sure you realize that that is a two way street. We, as in theists, are indoctrinated to believe a certain thing and sometimes, it can be so severe that it causes the opposite of becoming righteous. Shedding innocent blood should NEVER be a Godly cause.
Originally posted by Templares
Paradigm shift? 😆 😆 😆 Bwahaha.Just a fancy way of saying JUST BELIEVE EVEN THOUGH THE EVIDENCE IS LACKING.
*cough*blind faith*cough*
Like all imaginary beings like the Easter bunny, god is none-existant unless the evidence proves otherwise.
Also, I never said that the evidence of God's existence was lacking. I reiterate that everything material is evidence of God's existence.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlivethats a load of stupidity. the difference between humans and clay is that if you burn clay it doesn't scream, feel pain, or die because its not alive. christanity is a pretty bullshit religion, it's all death to anyone who doesnt think the same, and it's quite literally a rewording of the old testament and various other religions. the only religion that i know of that supports killing people who dont follow them as much is Islamic (which one part translates to basically say "if in your travels you find somebody who does not believe in your religion [islamic] then it is your responsibility to kill him)
[COLOR=darkblue][COLOR=darkblue]Again, does not the potter have power over the clay? Does not the artist exercise arbitrary decisions over what stroke to apply, how much paint to use, or the size of the canvas? Why does the musician have so much control over the notes that he composes or the songwriter the choice of words that he puts into writing? Why do authors reserve so much authority over their writings? All human creators--in the arts--carry out their prerogatives daily yet when God does it over His creation people want to have a fit.This is very hypocritical.
Does not the manufacturer of any product have total control over how that product looks, feels, tastes, behaves, smells, functions, etc? Have you ever destroyed something that you owned SpearofDestiny? I surmise that you have destroyed things that you did not manufacture and yet you did it without compunction or any feeling of wrong. I know that these are crude examples, but it was the best that I could do at this time
Re: Can you handle the Truth?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why do people get offended when you tell them the truth as it pertains to the Bible?
Like these Guys?
Science vs. Religion vid top left of page.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080321/ap_on_sc/exploding_star
Exploding star article is interesting as well.
Originally posted by The big EH
thats a load of stupidity. the difference between humans and clay is that if you burn clay it doesn't scream, feel pain, or die because its not alive. christanity is a pretty bullshit religion, it's all death to anyone who doesnt think the same, and it's quite literally a rewording of the old testament and various other religions. the only religion that i know of that supports killing people who dont follow them as much is Islamic (which one part translates to basically say "if in your travels you find somebody who does not believe in your religion [islamic] then it is your responsibility to kill him)
I didn't say anything about believers killing anyone who doesn't think the same (you must be confused with Islam). Jesus never told His disciples to kill anyone. In fact, believers were the ones being killed--not the other way around (do your research). Did you forget: Jesus was put to death by crucifixion? At one point one of Jesus' disciples drew his sword to defend Jesus, but Jesus commanded Him to put his sword away.
You have totally misunderstood my point to Spear of Destiny that God as Creator has the power and the right to take a life--but other human beings do not have the power to take another person's life. God is the Author of life i.e. He is the one Who gives life; hence, God as the manufacturer can do with His creation as He sees fit. I don't know why you can't understand this.
Re: Re: Can you handle the Truth?
Originally posted by Mark Question
Like these Guys?
Science vs. Religion vid top left of page.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080321/ap_on_sc/exploding_star
Exploding star article is interesting as well.
I watched the video. Like which guys? Who are you referring to?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I am sure you realize that that is a two way street. We, as in theists, are indoctrinated to believe a certain thing and sometimes, it can be so severe that it causes the opposite of becoming righteous. Shedding innocent blood should NEVER be a Godly cause.
Indoctrination is a fact of life. People are inculcated all the time from the media, school, and parents. There is no way around it. Both believers and atheists alike experience this.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Then you are truly lost. You say that God created the universe from nothing but then say that nothing doesn't exist. 😕
That is why God is supreme, He is the only One Who can create from non-existent material. God is the only One Who can invent things that have no precedent in any form or fashion. For example, color. Colors did not exist until after God created them. I know that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the truth.
What are you confused about? Nothing is just that "nothing." Nothing is devoid of time, space, and matter. Yet God can cause these elements to come into existence at will.
Originally posted by Templares
Im gonna assume that what youve posted is sarcasm. But for those who dont, sucks to believe and waste your life on something that has no credible proof of existence like all IMAGINARY beings do.You might want to think otherwise but honestly if you admit that there is no way to prove that your god exists, then your god is nothing more than just an over-glorified Boogeyman. I do believe that worshipping/believing/having faith in one's delusions is a fom of lunacy and delusional lunatics are not reasonable people for their points to be taken seriously.
To give JIA a recap:
1.Find credible (credible, as in NOT through blind faith. Remember the "proofs" in the Bible require blind faith.) proof to back-up your assumption that your god - the Christian God - exists.
Once that's done then we could proceed to number two . . . .
2. Find credible proof to back-up your assumption that your god - the Christian God - SPECIFICALLY is the Creator/Designer of the Universe?
The second part should be pretty straighforward once you cleared the first hurdle.
As a friendly reminder, avoid using unknown mysteries (the unproven existence of spirits) to prove another unknown mystery (the unproven existence of god).
Also, how do you know anything in the remote past that was written down is true? You were not there to see, hear, or experience any of the events unfold. They were not captured on streaming video or posted on youtube. You've never seen Christopher Columbus, Abraham Lincoln, Alexander the Great etc. You are simply taking someone else's word. How do you know Shakespear wrote anything? Were you there when he wrote? So how can you be sure that he wrote anything? What you call evidence I could simply dismiss as "simply writings." Isn't that what unbelievers do with the Bible?
Again, does not the potter have power over the clay? Does not the artist exercise arbitrary decisions over what stroke to apply, how much paint to use, or the size of the canvas? Why does the musician have so much control over the notes that he composes or the songwriter the choice of words that he puts into writing? Why do authors reserve so much authority over their writings? All human creators--in the arts--carry out their prerogatives daily yet when God does it over His creation people want to have a fit.
So what ever happened to free will ?
Does not the manufacturer of any product have total control over how that product looks, feels, tastes, behaves, smells, functions, etc? Have you ever destroyed something that you owned SpearofDestiny? I surmise that you have destroyed things that you did not manufacture and yet you did it without compunction or any feeling of wrong. I know that these are crude examples, but it was the best that I could do at this time.
You are comparing human beings to inanimate objects. Nice job 😆
If I torture or destroy an inanimate object, it wont feel any pain. It wont know what's going on.
If I torture an animal or my own child, that would be wrong. That's a better analogy, since God is supposedly our father and creator. Now, tell me...as father of my own child, do I have the right to starve, torture, or kill my own child ? Or a pet for that matter ? I am its master in the end....
What is your definition of "spirit?"
I can't come up with a clear cut definition, but the best way I can describe it is that every object contains energy. Potential energy is not spiritual, but once this energy occupies a living being, it becomes spiritual- thus spirit extends beyond human, to animal and plant as well.
I see the Earth itself as alive, not dead. It has cyclical functions, and I see it as more of an evolving organism, then just a giant rock with water.
Plants are different from human and animal, but they are still alive. We can't concieve what it is like to be a plant, but we know they are alive. Likewise, I beleive the Earth as a planet is a living thing, even though its difficult for us to conceive what life is for a planet.
I personally feel the same applies to the Universe, but that's another story.
I used the above Scriptures to support my belief that God is love in stark contrast to your claim to the contrary.
Well your back up is poor then. You aren't directly addressing my points, but rather side stepping them. That's not an answer JIA, that's a desperate ploy. You're not a stupid person, even if you come off as one. You display a fair knowledge of general science and various studies. I've seen your posts. So I assume you can come up with better arguments than merely copy and paste. Maybe I expected too much from you. My apologies.
Earlier you cited instances that you believe support your assertions that God must not be loving, but when I quote Scriptures in support of my belief you discount them as simply writings. Hmmm...I wonder why.
Because they contradict God's actions in the Old Testament. And you still didn't actually address the points, you side stepped them AGAIN, like you always do.
How can someone who is love personified torture and kill so many people ? What kind of love is that? Why can't you just answer that ? Or is that too much for you to justify ?
They only appear to be contradictions because (perhaps) you do not understand how God operates. Hang in there though.
They are clearly contradictions. At least logically so.Nice side stepping again 👇
I believe the Scriptures are true. Conversely, you believe the Bible to be simply writings. I guess we are at a stalemate.
No, because I do not claim my opinion as fact. My belief that the Bible is just writings of man is not fact, but belief. I do not claim it as fact. You claim your belief as fact. So there is no stalemate, until you admit that you are only speaking from belief, not fact.
Your disbelief and my belief are equally valid or invalid depending one's point of view. I cannot prove that my belief is true and you cannot disprove it. Again, we are at a draw in this regard. [/B][/QUOTE]
It seems to me like you are finally admitting your beliefs are not fact, but beliefs. Am I correct ?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is why God is supreme, He is the only One Who can create from non-existent material. God is the only One Who can invent things that have no precedent in any form or fashion. For example, color. Colors did not exist until after God created them.
I will admit that I do agree that for a being to be able to create from nothing is probably the greatest feat one can accomplish, and that would certainly qualify a being as omnipotent.
However, on your point about color: Color is a matter of perception, and it does not truly exist the way we imagine it does. There are animals who see less colors than we do, and animals who can see far more colors than we can.
It's simply a relationship between eye and environment.
So color is not a phenomena which needs to be created by an omnipotent being, but rather a product of the relationship between eye and environment, much like sound. There are sound waves, but sound only exists to a being with ears.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I know that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the truth.
Oh trust me JIA, I have no problem swallowing anything...beleive me 😆
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
What are you confused about? Nothing is just that "nothing." Nothing is devoid of time, space, and matter. Yet God can cause these elements to come into existence at will.
I see "nothingness" as empty space, while "nothing" is lack of space.
I don't think "nothing" actually exists, it is just a concept we invented to understand nature.
"Nothingness" however, is still something if you define that as empty space- or a vacuum.
Ugh....so confusing
Reply number 2
Originally posted by The big EH
thats a load of stupidity. the difference between humans and clay is that if you burn clay it doesn't scream, feel pain, or die because its not alive. christanity is a pretty bullshit religion, it's all death to anyone who doesnt think the same, and it's quite literally a rewording of the old testament and various other religions. the only religion that i know of that supports killing people who dont follow them as much is Islamic (which one part translates to basically say "if in your travels you find somebody who does not believe in your religion [islamic] then it is your responsibility to kill him)
Have you ever taken the life of an insect, animal, or other organism (including plants)? If so, who gave you the right to end the life of another living thing that you did not create/manufacture? Again, God does not need me to defend Him, but people accuse Him of being sadistic and cruel when the fact is He is the Creator of all life. We do things everyday that if God were guilty of we would have a fit yet we have no pangs about it. We destroy and kill things all the time and continue on as if nothing was amiss. Yet God exercises His divine right as Creator and Judge of all flesh and the earth--in response to sin and evil--and we jump off of our hypocritical highhorse and want to throw the book at God and give Him the maximum sentence.
Now do you see my point?
At least God--according to the Scriptures--is the Creator of all life. If anyone has the right to give or take a life it is the Creator/manufacturer of that life/thing. If anyone has the power to judge this earth it is the Creator and sustainer of it. How many universes and planets have you created (and sustained by your wisdom and power) The big EH? How many creatures are you responsible for breathing life into? As soon as you show me the schematic diagram for the universe that you have created I can fax it up to God then you can have the right to criticize God. Until then you have no case. Go look in the mirror and examine your own life (and all that you have done) before finding fault with God to see if you are above reproach. I guarantee you, me, and everyone else are not.
Re: Reply number 2
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Have you ever taken the life of an insect, animal, or other organism (including plants)? [B]If so, who gave you the right to end the life of another living thing that you did not create/manufacture? Again, God does not need me to defend Him, but people accuse Him of being sadistic and cruel when the fact is He is the Creator of all life. We do things everyday that if God were guilty of we would have a fit yet we have no pangs about it. We destroy and kill things all the time and continue on as if nothing was amiss. Yet God exercises His divine right as Creator and Judge of all flesh and the earth--in response to sin and evil--and we jump off of our hypocritical highhorse and want to throw the book at God and give Him the maximum sentence. [/B]
Yes, I have taken the life of many insects, and I have eaten many plants, and I have also eaten animals who have been killed by other people.
I am a human being though, who is imperfect.
If God is my moral superior, how could he perform the same actions that a human being like me would ?
And like I stated earlier...whether a human being tortures me, or whether God tortures me, ultamately makes no diference if I am still being tortured. God committing the evil act does not make it a good act. The act itself is still sadistic and cruel, regardless of whose inflicting it.
Do you understand ?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Now do you see my point?
Yes, but it fails.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
At least God--according to the Scriptures--is the Creator of all life. If anyone has the right to give or take a life it is the Creator/manufacturer of that life/thing. If anyone has the power to judge this earth it is the Creator and sustainer of it. How many universes and planets have you created (and sustained by your wisdom and power) The big EH? How many creatures are you responsible for breathing life into? As soon as you show me the schematic diagram for the universe that you have created I can fax it up to God then you can have the right to criticize God. Until then you have no case. Go look in the mirror and examine your own life (and all that you have done) before finding fault with God to see if you are above reproach. I guarantee you, me, and everyone else are not.
Just because I give birth to a child does not mean I have the right to torture him or her.
If I had the power to breathe life into a clay model, that does not mean I have the right to make it suffer. The clay model never asked to be born, just like human beings never asked to be born and put through a trial of heaven and hell.
life feeds on life this is necessary, i'm not arguing that. and god does do those things, if he is all controlling than he could prevent so many wrongs in the world (i.e. disasterous hurricanes, terrorism, war, holocaust, other genocides) but the fact that he doesn't means one of 3 possibilities. 1. he doesn't give a damn and never will 2. he is a cruel bastard who gets his kicks from suffering or 3. he just doesnt exist
f*cking A spearofdestiny
man i cant wait till 2012
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveThis is where you fail and the argument that you use and other to support God, you want to use science to back up your claim but when it comes down to God you throw it out the window. Were everything in the universe must follow the laws this doesn’t apply to God which is so much BS. If you plan on using science to back up your claim then you must use science all the way, you can not just turn off the scientific principal when you come to explaining your God. You are willing to support the scientific part of your argument when you think in supports your view but when God is involved he doesn’t have to follow anything and defies all.
That is why God is supreme, He is the only One Who can create from non-existent material. God is the only One Who can invent things that have no precedent in any form or fashion. For example, color. Colors did not exist until after God created them. I know that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the truth.What are you confused about? Nothing is just that "nothing." Nothing is devoid of time, space, and matter. Yet God can cause these elements to come into existence at will.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive😆 😆😆 😆😆 😆 Don't tell me you actually believe what you just wrote 😱
Have you ever taken the life of an insect, animal, or other organism (including plants)? [B]If so, who gave you the right to end the life of another living thing that you did not create/manufacture? Again, God does not need me to defend Him, but people accuse Him of being sadistic and cruel when the fact is He is the Creator of all life. We do things everyday that if God were guilty of we would have a fit yet we have no pangs about it. We destroy and kill things all the time and continue on as if nothing was amiss. Yet God exercises His divine right as Creator and Judge of all flesh and the earth--in response to sin and evil--and we jump off of our hypocritical highhorse and want to throw the book at God and give Him the maximum sentence.Now do you see my point?
At least God--according to the Scriptures--is the Creator of all life. If anyone has the right to give or take a life it is the Creator/manufacturer of that life/thing. If anyone has the power to judge this earth it is the Creator and sustainer of it. How many universes and planets have you created (and sustained by your wisdom and power) The big EH? How many creatures are you responsible for breathing life into? As soon as you show me the schematic diagram for the universe that you have created I can fax it up to God then you can have the right to criticize God. Until then you have no case. Go look in the mirror and examine your own life (and all that you have done) before finding fault with God to see if you are above reproach. I guarantee you, me, and everyone else are not. [/B]
Again, does not the potter have power over the clay? Does not the artist exercise arbitrary decisions over what stroke to apply, how much paint to use, or the size of the canvas? Why does the musician have so much control over the notes that he composes or the songwriter the choice of words that he puts into writing? Why do authors reserve so much authority over their writings? All human creators--in the arts--carry out their prerogatives daily yet when God does it over His creation people want to have a fit.
So what ever happened to free will ?
Free will is still in force. Free will is not a license to do whatever you want whenever (that is not what free will is). Free will is the ability/power to choose but, within a set of well-defined parameters. But what you must understand is that free will is not immune to consequences. For example, you could exercise your free will to rob a bank right? But if you did so you would subject yourself to the consequences of your actions correct? It is the same in refernce to God. God as the Creator has set the standard of law (just like in our society). We can abide by that law or go counter to that established order (it is our choice). There will be ramifications if we go outside those boundaries in our own laws, how much more with God's laws? Actually, God is the One Who ordained government in the first place: to curb sin as it were and maintain order. That does not mean that people will automatically obey it just means that the bar/standard has been set for what should be done.
Does not the manufacturer of any product have total control over how that product looks, feels, tastes, behaves, smells, functions, etc? Have you ever destroyed something that you owned SpearofDestiny? I surmise that you have destroyed things that you did not manufacture and yet you did it without compunction or any feeling of wrong. I know that these are crude examples, but it was the best that I could do at this time.
You are comparing human beings to inanimate objects. Nice job 😆
If I torture or destroy an inanimate object, it wont feel any pain. It wont know what's going on.
If I torture an animal or my own child, that would be wrong. That's a better analogy, since God is supposedly our father and creator. Now, tell me...as father of my own child, do I have the right to starve, torture, or kill my own child ? Or a pet for that matter ? I am its master in the end....
Have you ever taken the life of an insect, animal, or other organism (including plants)? If so, who gave you the right to end the life of another living thing that you did not create/manufacture? Again, God does not need me to defend Him, but people accuse Him of being sadistic and cruel when the fact is He is the Creator of all life. We do things everyday that if God were guilty of we would have a fit yet we have no pangs about it. We destroy and kill things all the time and continue on as if nothing was amiss. Yet God exercises His divine right as Creator and Judge of all flesh and the earth--in response to sin and evil--and we jump off of our hypocritical highhorse and want to throw the book at God and give Him the maximum sentence.
Now do you see my point?
At least God--according to the Scriptures--is the Creator of all life. If anyone has the right to give or take a life it is the Creator/manufacturer of that life/thing. If anyone has the power to judge this earth it is the Creator and sustainer of it. How many universes and planets have you created (and sustained by your wisdom and power) Spear of Destiny? How many creatures are you responsible for breathing life into? As soon as you show me the schematic diagram for the universe that you have created I can fax it up to God then you can have the right to criticize God. Until then you have no case. Go look in the mirror and examine your own life (and all that you have done) before finding fault with God to see if you are above reproach. I guarantee you, me, and everyone else are not.
What is your definition of "spirit?"
I can't come up with a clear cut definition, but the best way I can describe it is that every object contains energy. Potential energy is not spiritual, but once this energy occupies a living being, it becomes spiritual- thus spirit extends beyond human, to animal and plant as well.
I see the Earth itself as alive, not dead. It has cyclical functions, and I see it as more of an evolving organism, then just a giant rock with water.
Plants are different from human and animal, but they are still alive. We can't concieve what it is like to be a plant, but we know they are alive. Likewise, I beleive the Earth as a planet is a living thing, even though its difficult for us to conceive what life is for a planet.
I personally feel the same applies to the Universe, but that's another story.
This sounds like pure opinion pal. What do you base your theory about what constitutes "a spirit" on?
I used the above Scriptures to support my belief that God is love in stark contrast to your claim to the contrary.
Well your back up is poor then. You aren't directly addressing my points, but rather side stepping them. That's not an answer JIA, that's a desperate ploy. You're not a stupid person, even if you come off as one. You display a fair knowledge of general science and various studies. I've seen your posts. So I assume you can come up with better arguments than merely copy and paste. Maybe I expected too much from you. My apologies.
I don't understand why you feel that I am not directly answering your points. You cited referenes from the Scriptures that support your position that God is so on and so forth. I used the same approach i.e. I quoted Scriptural references to support my belief that God is love. The difference is you accuse me of side-stepping when I do it and not addressing your points directly.
😕
Earlier you cited instances that you believe support your assertions that God must not be loving, but when I quote Scriptures in support of my belief you discount them as simply writings. Hmmm...I wonder why.
Because they contradict God's actions in the Old Testament. And you still didn't actually address the points, you side stepped them AGAIN, like you always do.
How can someone who is love personified torture and kill so many people ? What kind of love is that? Why can't you just answer that ? Or is that too much for you to justify ?
God is the giver of life in the first place; hence, He (and only He) reserves the right to take that life back at His discretion. We are all God's product; consequently, as the Manufacturer God can recall His product whenever He wants to--especially if He deems it defective i.e. deserving of judgment leading to death. I don't know that you can understand God's display of love. Many people have this idea that God should just show love and only love all the time regardless of what we do. But God is not just love. God is also Judge of all flesh, Judge of all the earth. He is responsible for administrating righteousness and justice in the universe in accordance with the laws that are described in His Word. What you see in the Old Testament is God moving as it were in His Judicial capacity. God is Sovereign but He is righteous in everything that He does (even when you or anyone else can't comprehend what or why God does what He does). I don't even understand everything that God does that is why I must exercise my faith that He is all that the Scriptures reveal that He is, and that He knows what He is doing.
They only appear to be contradictions because (perhaps) you do not understand how God operates. Hang in there though.
They are clearly contradictions. At least logically so.Nice side stepping again 👇
There are no contradictions just different points of view leading to inaccurate interpretations of what is actually going on.
I believe the Scriptures are true. Conversely, you believe the Bible to be simply writings. I guess we are at a stalemate.
No, because I do not claim my opinion as fact. My belief that the Bible is just writings of man is not fact, but belief. I do not claim it as fact. You claim your belief as fact. So there is no stalemate, until you admit that you are only speaking from belief, not fact.
I believe what I believe just like you and everyone else.
Your disbelief and my belief are equally valid or invalid depending one's point of view. I cannot prove that my belief is true and you cannot disprove it. Again, we are at a draw in this regard. [/B][/QUOTE]
It seems to me like you are finally admitting your beliefs are not fact, but beliefs. Am I correct ?
In reference to the Scriptures my beliefs are factual. For example, I believe that God created the heavens and the earth. To me this is a fact not opinion. But I show my credence through my belief--by faith of course because I was not there when God did it.