Originally posted by Quiero Mota
And I'm saying it isn't a ruse or loophole. If you wanna call it an "irrational hatred", then you might as well go a step further and call religion in general irrational. I maintain that they're not pointing at god as a loophole for their disdain of gays. The Abrahamic religions have an aversion towards homosexual activity just like Buddhists don't kill spiders and Hindus don't eat beef. Yeah that's right, "Hindus have an irrational adoration for cows". That's really not too far from what you're saying.Is there anything rational about dodging beef or transcendental meditation? No, they do it for religion. The same reason Christians and Muslims don't care for homosexuality. I honestly think you're saying they don't like it for reasons other than religion, to give yourself confidence and ammunition in riding it off as invalid and a fairytale. The Abrahamic religions condemn something you self-identify as, so you're coming back with a few right hooks of your own and claiming "It's not the religion, its them!", when in fact they simply don't like it because of religion and nothing else.
A step further? Haven't you been listening to me for the last few years?Religion is irrational. I maintain they do point at god and say "hey, don't blame me for hating gays, he said I had to!"
I'm sure meditation has it's benefits. I'm simply not one to partake in it. And the health benefits alone of not eating beef are some step towards rationality; though I highly doubt that is their motivation.
No, I'm not writing it off as an excuse to validate my belief that it's a fairy tale, the story alone is enough to do that. I'm simply pointing out, again, that people so often blame their homophobia on their religion, when it's a very internalized matter for them. It's practically an institution in some families and cultures. But I also think you might be misunderstanding me or I'm not doing a very good job of getting my point across. I'm not saying it's not the religion, it's the followers; I'm saying it IS the religion because of the followers. The religion was spun out of straw by men, very human men, not some burning bush or a man nailed to a cross. Jesus would be appaled by the behaviour and attitudes of most of his followers today. He spent 33 years telling us how to live and we've spent 2000 killing each other over what he meant. The part about the followers is that the abandonment of many other principles set forth in the bible has been a matter of conveinience and lifestlye for it's followers, but they cling to this one, not because it's in the bible, but because they just don't like ****.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
One doesn't have to focus on hell when discussing why one should convert to one religion or another. The positive side is usually much more effective. People resonate with things that are uplifting and in some cases are willing to reevaluate their lives. Saying something welcoming or positive can be done without the slightest bit of smugness.A characteristic that can be found in people that believe anything at all.
No, one doesn't HAVE to focus on hell, but it has helped a great many of them in their attempts at conversion. I have no doubt you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Look at the mormons. Some of the nicest, most polite, most arrogantly sure of themselves folks I've ever met. Granted, I've not met them all. Sure the message can be said with the abscence of smugness, it just rarely is.
Sure it's a common characteristic. Look at me, I've very arrogant. That's because I know I'm right. I just don't need a pretend god and his imaginary disappointment in me to back up my points.
Originally posted by Devil King
No, one doesn't HAVE to focus on hell, but it has helped a great many of them in their attempts at conversion. I have no doubt you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Look at the mormons. Some of the nicest, most polite, most arrogantly sure of themselves folks I've ever met. Granted, I've not met them all. Sure the message can be said with the abscence of smugness, it just rarely is.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Devil King
Sure it's a common characteristic. Look at me, I've very arrogant. That's because I know I'm right. I just don't need a pretend god and his imaginary disappointment in me to back up my points.
Yes yes you're quite amusing.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
A correction. He spent only 3 1/2 years. He was only 30 when he began his ministry. Just like Mithra...hmmSince his views were much different from the Pharisees..what did he learn and where did he go in his earlier years...just a though....
But three and a half years doesn't sound very good in my sentence.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
YouTube videoTestimonies about visiting Heaven.
What say the masses?
Originally posted by Devil King
I maintain they do point at god and say "hey, don't blame me for hating gays, he said I had to!"
Exactly. Just like many Hindus say "Hey, don't blame me for not wanting to try your wife's fillet mignon, Vishnu says I can't".
Originally posted by Devil King
No, I'm not writing it off as an excuse to validate my belief that it's a fairy tale, the story alone is enough to do that. I'm simply pointing out, again, that people so often blame their homophobia on their religion, when it's a very internalized matter for them. It's practically an institution in some families and cultures. But I also think you might be misunderstanding me or I'm not doing a very good job of getting my point across. I'm not saying it's not the religion, it's the followers; I'm saying it IS the religion because of the followers. The religion was spun out of straw by men, very human men, not some burning bush or a man nailed to a cross. Jesus would be appaled by the behaviour and attitudes of most of his followers today. He spent 33 years telling us how to live and we've spent 2000 killing each other over what he meant. The part about the followers is that the abandonment of many other principles set forth in the bible has been a matter of conveinience and lifestlye for it's followers, but they cling to this one, not because it's in the bible, but because they just don't like ****.
And I believe that's not true. See, you have to wonder why they don't like gays if its not because of the Bible. Is it "just because"? They just "feel like it"? No, its because of the Bible. If those same homophobes weren't raised with Biblical teachings in their childhood, do you honestly think they'd feel the same way towards gay people today? I don't.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Exactly. Just like many Hindus say "Hey, don't blame me for not wanting to try your wife's fillet mignon, Vishnu says I can't".
I wouldn't say exactly. I'm saying both are absurd reasons to cling to an idea. I like a great steak. Not as much as a piece of ass, but they're both fairly satisfying. In fact, as much as I like steak, I rarely eat it. The only meat I eat is fish and chicken. Not for religious reasons, but because I choose to for health reasons.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
And I believe that's not true. See, you have to wonder why they don't like gays if its not because of the Bible. Is it "just because"? They just "feel like it"? No, its because of the Bible. If those same homophobes weren't raised with Biblical teachings in their childhood, do you honestly think they'd feel the same way towards gay people today? I don't.
I don't wonder. I realize why they don't like gays. Either they can't conceive of the concept or they've been raised to think this way by their family or their society. Chickens don't peck to death the chick with the black feather on it's head because of some chicken religion; they do it out of instinct driven by disdain for anything that is different or doesn't conform to their rationale. Yes, I can absolutely see them still being bastards whether they were raised in a western christian home or not. (People, not chickens) What you're discounting are the huge numbers of haters out there who don't fall back on the bible for their dislike of homosexuals. Or on any religion for that matter. I have the luxury of having a basis for my angst in regards to the institutionalized homophobia that religion provides. And more often than not, those very same people will, despite their not considering christianity as their motivation, still point to it as a validation of their perspective; a legitimizing motivation for their hatred. When that's not it at all. It's really just that they hate ****.
Originally posted by Devil King
I wouldn't say exactly. I'm saying both are absurd reasons to cling to an idea. I like a great steak. Not as much as a piece of ass, but they're both fairly satisfying. In fact, as much as I like steak, I rarely eat it. The only meat I eat is fish and chicken. Not for religious reasons, but because I choose to for health reasons.I don't wonder. I realize why they don't like gays. Either they can't conceive of the concept or they've been raised to think this way by their family or their society. Chickens don't peck to death the chick with the black feather on it's head because of some chicken religion; they do it out of instinct driven by disdain for anything that is different or doesn't conform to their rationale. Yes, I can absolutely see them still being bastards whether they were raised in a western christian home or not. (People, not chickens) What you're discounting are the huge numbers of haters out there who don't fall back on the bible for their dislike of homosexuals. Or on any religion for that matter. I have the luxury of having a basis for my angst in regards to the institutionalized homophobia that religion provides. And more often than not, those very same people will, despite their not considering christianity as their motivation, still point to it as a validation of their perspective; a legitimizing motivation for their hatred. When that's not it at all. It's really just that they hate ****.
When someone hates gays, I don't think its "just because". Many people who are racist, are so because they were either raised to or had a bad experience with another race (like getting beat up by a bunch of black guys as a kid). They're not racist "just because".
You seem very positive that its not religion, but you're also not saying exactly what it is. So here's my question: what is a nonreligious explanation for homophobia? And how do you explain the various cultures that revered homosexuality, and even considered it superior to being straight?
Originally posted by Devil King
they can't conceive of the concept
As in they don't know why it exists?
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
When someone hates gays, I don't think its "just because". Many people who are racist, are so because they were either raised to or had a bad experience with another race (like getting beat up by a bunch of black guys as a kid). They're not racist "just because".You seem very positive that its not religion, but you're also not saying exactly what it is. So here's my question: what is a nonreligious explanation for homophobia? And how do you explain the various cultures that revered homosexuality, and even considered it superior to being straight?
As in they don't know why it exists?
Racism is not my point. At least in racism there is a surface issue that goes beyond practice or appearance. "Just because" is a lazy codification of my point. I don't expect people to always know why they hate. I have seen them hate simple for the sake of hating.
No. I am certain it is in large part because of religion; or at least their assumed religion. What I am certain of is that religion and man are not two seperate things. This is the point you seem intent on disassociating. I can't say exactly what it is because I don't subscribe to that kind of baseless reaction. I find it, well...baseless and reactionary.
No, I don't know they can or can't say why it exists; as though a justification is needed for it to be fact and thus become a basis for their not descriminating. Even I don't know, for certain, why it exists. But what I do know it that it does and that it likely has for as long as humans have existed. I know it can and has been observed in other species. But what I know is that there are cetain people in this world who would love to revisit the beating to the face I got because I dared to walk down the street holding my boyfriend's hand as though I had as much providence as they themselves would assume they enjoy simply because they are heterosexual. They chose to ignore that I have as much right as they do, despite my homosexuality.
A letter from Hell (a dramatic presentation).
Originally posted by JesusIsAlivelies
YouTube videoA letter from Hell (a dramatic presentation).
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveSo I should beleive in God from fear of going to hell? Would I not go to hell either way? Lose lose situation, I will stick with logic. Also that video is a sick form of propoganda / brainwashing which would be very usefull in converting kids.
YouTube videoA letter from Hell (a dramatic presentation).
Originally posted by Magee
So I should beleive in God from fear of going to hell? Would I not go to hell either way? Lose lose situation, I will stick with logic. Also that video is a sick form of propoganda / brainwashing which would be very usefull in converting kids.
No, you should believe in Jesus because He loves you, died for you, paid the penalty of sin for you, and will one day return for you and others who love His appearing.