Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Dear me, this is going to be a struggle.Right.
Please respond to what I said in that quote, I'd love to hear what you have to say on the God vs Allah front. Hopefully you have learned what JIA meant in the short time that has passed and now understand that the Christian God and the Islamic God are two very distinct deities.
You'll find my abilities are so superior I responded to your comment in my original post (remember my photograph analogy?)
Now, that is telling.
Oh goody, you're taking the pretenious route that is common when someone shows your superior theological skills to be little more than Google-derived.
Look, I can do it to:
Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, I am right, they're the same God, deal with it.The only difference is in God's actions. At one point (in the OT) God wasn't in three parts, so by your ill-logic, the OT God and the NT are different gods, as the Jews do not accept the trinity as part of their faith.
Instead of saying "boy did that shoot you[sic] right in your own foot", why don't you point it out?
Originally posted by Robtard
Actually, I am right, they're the same God, deal with it.The only difference is in God's actions. At one point (in the OT) God wasn't in three parts, so by your ill-logic, the OT God and the NT are different gods, as the Jews do not accept the trinity as part of their faith.
Instead of saying "boy did that shoot you[sic] right in your own foot", why don't you point it out?
Oh dear...
right,
Christianity states that their God (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is the one true God who spoke to Abraham, Moses, Adam etc. They say that God ALWAYS had three persons- even in the OT.
Judaism states that their God is the one true God and denounces the Christian idea of a Trinity as heresy and says Jesus was not the Messiah and not God, they also say Muhammad was not a prophet and their idea of God is wrong, thus they are worshiping a false-god.
Islam states that their God is the God that spoke to Jesus, Abraham, Moses and Adam etc however, they state that the Jews do not know how to worship God correctly and are thus worshiping a false god and that Jesus was not God so Christians too are worshiping a false God.
Therefore, different Gods.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
LoL, and you said my comprehension was lacking. Here, let me post the definition of idol again and we'll go over it.
"a representation or symbol of an object of worship"
The cross serves as a representation/symbol of God. Why else would Christians carry a cross and use it in their prays? You guessed it, because it's a symbol for Jesus.
Cross is the symbol, God/Jesus is the object of worship.
I'm gonna try and make this very very simple.
The Islamic God- is NOT the Christian God.
The Christian God- is NOT the Islamic God.
They are both attributed with many of the same acts- yes. That does not make them the same person.
An Idol is something which is worshipped as a God. Crosses are not worshipped as a God.
You may have a dictionary which paints a more broad view of what an Idol is- but that is not the meaning of idol as is presented in the Bible.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Oh dear...right,
Christianity states that their God (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is the one true God who spoke to Abraham, Moses, Adam etc. They say that God ALWAYS had three persons- even in the OT.
Judaism states that their God is the one true God and denounces the Christian idea of a Trinity as heresy and says Jesus was not the Messiah and not God, they also say Muhammad was not a prophet and their idea of God is wrong, thus they are worshiping a false-god.
Islam states that their God is the God that spoke to Jesus, Abraham, Moses and Adam etc however, they state that the Jews do not know how to worship God correctly and are thus worshiping a false god and that Jesus was not God so Christians too are worshiping a false God.
Therefore, different Gods.
Different views of God's actions, same God at the core.
Funny how you spell out so many similarites between the three then bury your head in your little private theologic sandbox.
Originally posted by Robtard
Different views of God's actions, same God at the core.Funny how you spell out so many similarites between the three then bury your head in your little private theologic sandbox.
I shall try again.
There is this wall which runs through my garden.
My Mum believes Bob built the wall.
My Dad believes Tom built the wall.
Now, the fact is that wall is there- the fact is both Bob and Tom are believed by different people to have built it. However, just because they are believed to have done the same thing- does not mean they are the same person by a different name.
Indeed, they are believed to have done everything the exact same other than the fact that Bob apparently sent his son back to mend the wall and those who believe in Tom say he never sent his son back as he never had one, he instead sent his messenger to do the job.
Same stuff, differnt people.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I shall try again.There is this wall which runs through my garden.
My Mum believes Bob built the wall.
My Dad believes Tom built the wall.Now, the fact is that wall is there- the fact is both Bob and Tom are believed by different people to have built it. However, just because they are believed to have done the same thing- does not mean they are the same person by a different name.
I love these.
I believe Lincoln freed the slaves just because he really liked black people, his favorite food was mutton and his favorite color was black.
You believe Lincoln freed the slaves due to economical pressures in the US, his favorite food was beef-ribs and his favorite color was blue.
Now, does that make our Lincolns not the same 16th president of the U.S. who was assassinated because we differ in views of actions?
Your scenario is faulty, it isn't a question of who built the wall, just how Bob built the wall and why he did it.
Originally posted by Robtard
I love these.I believe Lincoln freed the slaves just because he really liked black people, his favorite food was mutton and his favorite color was black.
You believe Lincoln freed the slaves due to economical pressures in the US, his favorite food was beef-ribs and his favorite color was blue.
Now, does that make our Lincolns not the same 16th president of the U.S. who was assassinated because we differ in views of actions?
Your scenario is faulty, it isn't a question of who built the wall, just how Bob built the wall and why he did it.
This is harder than I thought!
Islam's God said he never had a son and a whole load of other stuff.
Christianity's God not only said he had a son he said he was the son!
This is not the same as.
Islamic God saying he flooded the earth because of people having too much sex.
Christian God saying he flooded the earth because of people not going to Church enough...
Do you get it yet?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
This is harder than I thought!Islam's God said he never had a son and a whole load of other stuff.
Christianity's God not only said he had a son he said he was the son!
This is not the same as.
Islamic God saying he flooded the earth because of people having too much sex. Excellent.
Christian God saying he flooded the earth because of people not going to Church enough...
Do you get it yet?
I see by your ever increasing pretentiousness that you realize the faults in your logic, yet are too stubborn to acknowledge it.
Yet they're still the same God at the very core (which is the argument), the views differ on what God did or didn't do later on.The fact that one group thinks God became flesh while another does not, doesn't take away that they're initially the same God.
Tell me, do the Jews and Christians have a different God? Because as mentioned, the Jews have a different view of God's actions when compared to the Christians, just as Islam does. Funny that.
Ah!
Yes now I see what your thinking.
Initially being the keyword.
There is no dispute that the Christian God and the Islamic God both came from the same source- the teachings of Abraham.
There are many acts,
Creation,
Flood,
Communication with the Prophets,
Judgement
and more
that both religions believe their God did. However, that does not mean they are the same person.
Christians believe that God is three persons who have co-existed as one being for eternity.
Muslims believe that God is one person who has existed for all eternity.
Do both Muslims and Christian's believe their God did the same things? In many cases yes.
Does that make them the same God?
No, because one is a singular being the other is three beings in one.
To your last question, Yes. As Jews say that God is not divided into three persons. The Christian would say they are mistaken and there God is the one true God...the Jews have just rejected him and embraced a false God.
Ah! You still didn't prove that they're not the same, just rehashed that Islam thinks God did some things a certain way while Christianity thinks God did them a different way. No real difference between Judaism and Christianity.
You won't argue that the Jews and Christians "have a different God", or would you?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
They dobecause one is A god.
the other is A trinity.
Yet all three facets of that trinity are the same God.
God = God
Jesus = God (just made flesh)
The Holy Ghost = God (or an expression of that same god's love)
Oh, Islam God = God (that same god) and Jew God = God (that same god), ergo, same God, just different viewpoints on certain actions or inactions of God.
Edit: BTW, you're the first Christian I've ever heard claim that the OT God is not the same NT God (aka Jesus). I find that especially odd since the OT incorporates the NT. Very odd, christorian.
Originally posted by Robtard
They're still the same God, i.e. the one true god, creator of all. The views just differ down the line of how God acted/acts.F.Y.I., Yahweh means "God" and Allah means "God", they're just two different languages for the same word. Might as well argue that "gato" and "cat" aren't the same thing in terms of meaning, you dumb bastard.
YHWH does not mean God, it means, "the existing One." The Name YHWH was translated as LORD or GOD out of reverence for, and to preserve the sanctity of, the Father's Name.
The name of God was considered so holy that the Jews would never utter it. The scribes that wrote the name of God down on scrolls would write a letter, go take a bath in the stream, and then write another letter. They were passionate about God’s holiness. Jews today continue to write God’s name in English as G_d. (Kingdom People written by Trevin Wax © 2007 Kingdom People blog, October 16, 2007, http://trevinwax.com/category/ten-commandments/)
Robtard, based on what I have written below it is not possible that YHWH and Allah are one and the same. The contradiction is just too enormous and conspicuous to gloss over. YWHW either has a Son or He does not. If He does have a Son then there is no possible way that He and Allah are one and the same because Allah categorically denies having a son, but YWHW--according to His Book, the Bible--explicitly affirms that He has a Son.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
There it is in black and white. Whose report will you believe?
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveAre God (i.e. YHWH) and Allah one and the same?
No. There are many false gods but only one, true God: the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The living God who is the Father of Jesus Christ. This is the true God.
The Christian God and Allah cannot be one and the same because in the Qur'an it is recorded that Allah denies having a son. But the Bible states in a multitude of places that God does have a Son. Jesus even stated that God is His Father. Let's take a look at the Qur'an. The Qur'an is organized into "Surahs" instead of by chapter and verse like the Bible.
Read:
Surah 4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
Surah 6:101 The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things ?
Surah 18:4,5 And to warn those who say: Allah hath chosen a son, (A thing) whereof they have no knowledge, nor (had) their fathers, Dreadful is the word that cometh out of their mouths. They speak naught but a lie.
Those are very damaging discrepancies and contradictions. Based on the information contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, God (i.e. YHWH, the God of the Bible) is the true God, but Allah is "a" false god. There are many false gods and Allah is just one of the many gods who are false. The true God does have a Son and His Name is a Name that is above every name. That Name is Jesus!
More proof from the Qur'an that the God of the Bible and Allah are not one and the same. God has a Son (Jesus the Christ), but Allah denies having a son.
Surah 23:91 Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.
This is not an issue of semantics, hair-splitting, or being technical. I have quoted Allah's own words where he himself states (in his Qu'ran in a number of places) that he does not have a son.
On the contrary, the Bible (the Word of the true God) states in the Old Testament and New Testament in many places throughout Scripture that God does indeed have a Son.
The God of the Bible and Allah are not one and the same. Christ Jesus is never mentioned as the Son of Allah because Allah is not God. Jesus Christ is only called or refrerred to as a prophet in the Qu'ran. But in the Bible Jesus is called the Son of God. In addition, God Almighty calls Jesus His beloved Son. The God of the Bible and Allah are not one and the same.
Allah states in no uncertain terms that he does not have a son. But the God of the Bible says that Jesus is His beloved Son. Is Allah confused? No, Allah is not confused. Allah is correct, he does not have a son. Allah denies having a son because the God of the Bible and Allah are not one and the same. YHWH (i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and Allah are not one and the same. The God of the Bible is the true God and His Son's Name is Jesus (Who is the Christ).
Furthermore, Allah is the mood god, he has an idol that represents him (this is documented, historical fact). But the God of the Bible, YHWH (i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), does not have (nor has He ever had) any kind of idol to represent Him, associated with Him, nor in connection with Him--whatsoever. (This too is documented, historical fact). All the other gods of the earth have had some type of idol (i.e. a literal, physical statue or other manufactured work of their likeness and image that has been carved, fashioned, formed, or created to stand for them). So why hasn't the God of the Bible ever had an idol to represent Him? The answer is simple: the God of the Bible has never been an idol, is not now an idol, and will never be an idol. Unfortunately, Allah and those who represent him can never say that. The God of the Bible and Allah are not one and the same.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Jesus is not just God made flesh- he is God. Totally as much as the father is.Allah says he is not made up of three people.
Clearly, different Gods.
I know, not arguing that Christians believe Jesus is God.
Correct, but God is God, they're the same starting at the beginning, one denomination thinking God took one certain course while another thinks differently doesn't render God being the same from the beginning.
Yeah, I understand you think that, but you also think the Jews worship a different God when Christians also revere the OT. Very odd.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
There is no dispute that the Christian God and the Islamic God both came from the same source- the teachings of Abraham.
Odd you state this but then say "different God" because of a belief in a different course of God's actions by Christians, Jews and Muslims.
You can argue that one view of actions is the one correct view (faith), but saying "different God" is contradictory.
Originally posted by Robtard
I know, not arguing that Christians believe Jesus is God.Correct, but God is God, they're the same starting at the beginning, one denomination thinking God took one certain course while another thinks differently doesn't render God being the same from the beginning.
Yeah, I understand you think that, but you also think the Jews worship a different God when Christians also revere the OT. Very odd.
Odd you state this but then say "different God" because of a belief in a different course of God's actions by Christians, Jews and Muslims.
You can argue that one view of actions is the one correct view, but saying "different God" is contradictory.
Bob and Tom are still different people,
Lincoln is one in the same.
Thus, I am correct.
Christian's cannot recognise the Islamic God as their God.
Muslims cannot recognise the Christian God as their God.
Jews cannot recognise the Islamic or Christian God as their God.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]
Robtard, based on what I have written below it is not possible that YHWH and Allah are one and the same. The contradiction is just too enormous and conspicuous to gloss over. YWHW either has a Son or He does not. If He does have a Son then there is no possible way that He and Allah are one and the same because Allah categorically denies having a son, but YWHW--according to His Book, the Bible--explicitly affirms that He has a Son.
Tell me, do the Jews worship a different God? Because they don't accept Jesus either.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Bob and Tom are still different people,Lincoln is one in the same.
Thus, I am correct.
Christian's cannot recognise the Islamic God as their God.
Muslims cannot recognise the Christian God as their God.
Jews cannot recognise the Islamic or Christian God as their God.
And again, it isn't an argument of Bob or Tom, as there is only one person (Abrahamic God).
Therefore. you are incorrect.
They all recognise the same God, they different in how they view God's actions to an extent. As you said, the Jew, Christian and Muslim God all comes from the same source, the teachings of Abraham. To state this then deny the same God is a contradiction.