Can you handle the Truth?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
YHWH (the Name of the God of the Bible) does not mean God it means "the Self-existing One," but this has no bearing on the discussion. The God of the Bible has a Son (this is not a school of thought, it is a fact based on the Bible). Allah denies having a son based on the Qu'ran. For this reason, the God of the Bible and the god of the Qu'ran are not one and the same.

Christian Arabs say "allah". Yes, its a school of thought.

God in the Koran (who also is the one who created Adam, and revealed scripture to Moses and Abraham), says that an all-powerful being would not need to sacrifice anything to save humanity froms sins. He could simply snap his fingers. Also, an all-powerful being doesn't need to do anything.

Yes, a school of thought.

As for the last quote which you've posted a million times, which is taken from Jack Chick, the Koran repeatedly denounces idolatry, which is worshipping anything that can be seen or was crafted by human hands.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[COLOR=darkblue]this is not a school of thought, it is a fact

You might want to get more familiar with what that word means.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Ok, let's examine the verse in baby quotes.

[b]Do not dispute with Jews and Christians, except with those of them who have acted unjustly. Tell them: "We believe in that which was revealed to you before Mohammed, and our God and your God is One in the same, and to Him do we submit.

Notice, how it specifically says Jews and Christians. Not Hindus, not Shintos, not Greeks, not Egyptians, or any other polytheists. Going off that, the term "Christian God" refers to the Christian concept of [Abraham's] God. As you know, Jews and Christians worship Abraham's god. Muslims also do, and Koran repeatedly asserts this. So that right there shows you all three worship the same God in distinct ways. [/B]

😆 I often give up before explaining stuff that deeply which makes the other person feel like they "won."

If it is clear, I just don't have the patience to do it with folks above the age of 13.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Christian Arabs say "allah". Yes, its a school of thought.

God in the Koran (who also is the one who created Adam, and revealed scripture to Moses and Abraham), says that an all-powerful being would not need to sacrifice anything to save humanity froms sins. He could simply snap his fingers. Also, an all-powerful being doesn't need to do anything.

Yes, a school of thought.

As for the last quote which you've posted a million times, which is taken from Jack Chick, the Koran repeatedly denounces idolatry, which is worshipping anything that can be seen or was crafted by human hands.

The Qu'ran contradicts the Bible in many places, therefore YHWH could not be the Author of the Qu'ran. Hence, YHWH and Allah cannot be one and the same.

http://members.aol.com/thetruth/biblevs.htm

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Qu'ran contradicts the Bible in many places, therefore YHWH could not be the Author of the Qu'ran. Hence, YHWH and Allah cannot be one and the same.

http://members.aol.com/thetruth/biblevs.htm

Thats not what they mean, they are correct to say it is the same person that both Christians and Muslims are talking about. However, one of the interpretations is more accurate than the others. The interpretations are also irreconcilable- which is why you are saying they are different people.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why do people get offended when you tell them the truth as it pertains to the Bible?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Oh fine then.

It's about time, despite all your early pretentiousness and little jabs, it only took three pages for you to recognize your error, welcome.

Originally posted by Robtard
It's about time, despite all your early pretentiousness and little jabs, it only took three pages for you to recognize your error, welcome.

Indeed, I still believe the opposing views are irreconcilable.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Thats not what they mean, they are correct to say it is the same person that both Christians and Muslims are talking about. However, one of the interpretations is more accurate than the others. The interpretations are also irreconcilable- which is why you are saying they are different people.

I beg to differ with you. They are not correct to say that Christians and Muslims are referring to the same Person because it is not really a matter of interpretation. For example, the Bible affirms throughout that the Father has a Son, but the Qu'ran denies this basic yet essential verity. That is not a misinterpretation that is a contradiction. For example, let's say that I have a secretary and I instruct her to record in a memo that I have a son, and she does it. Then she is replaced by someone else who records that I do not have a son. This is an example of a contradiction not a misinterpretation. Now, if I had told the first secretary that I had a son and she misheard me perhaps that could be described as a misinterpretation.

Many books of the Bible preceded the Qu'ran by hundreds of years. The youngest book in the New Testament preceded the Qu'ran by at least 500 years. The youngest book in the Old Testament preceded the Qu'ran by at least 1,000 years. Again, the contradictions are significant, glaring, and cogently prove that YHWH Who is called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, cannot be one and the same with Allah. YHWH is a personal God Who loves humanity and desires to have a relationship with them. YHWH is called Father and seeks to make every one of us His sons and daughters by adoption through His Son Jesus Christ. But Allah does not have a son and does not seek to know his creation on a personal level.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch3.html#ch3-9

Because one is totally based on earlier paganism and one is a reformed view of that same paganism.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Some Jews have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord (and Savior) and believe that He is the Messiah who was foretold by the prophets. But, there are Jews as well as Gentiles (i.e. nations or non-Jews) who do not accept Jesus Christ as the Christ; however, this is nothing new.

I'm talking about the institute of Judaism, it does not accept Jesus as God, ergo, Judaism would have a different God than Christianity by the same rational you use to state that Islam does. But we know this is not true, nor would you argue that the Jews worship a different God, they just worship God incorrectly in your views (as would the Muslims).

In reality though, all three religions worship the same God, they differ in their views of God's actions later on. This is a fact.

Like I told GMG, you can argue that a certain view/faith is the one and only correct interpretation, as those three religions do, but you can not argue that they worship a different god, they simply have different views of worship. When it comes to Islam, Judaism and Christianity, God is God, period.

Deal with it and having the same God as Islam doesn't take away from your faith in Jesus, another fact.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Indeed, I still believe the opposing views are irreconcilable.

Oppposing views are/were not in question, if the views jived together then there wouldn't be 3 separate religions.

Adam's analogy was dead on, by your accounts the car was green, by mine the car was blue, still the same car though.

Originally posted by Robtard
Oppposing views are/were not in question, if the views jived together then there wouldn't be 3 separate religions.

See, they are the issue. That is what JIA means.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
See, they are the issue. That is what JIA means.

No, he is saying what you were initially saying, that the god in question is a different God, which isn't the case.

It's common knowledge that Christians and Muslims (Jews too) worship differently/have oppsoing views, that has nothing to do with having a different God.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm talking about the institute of Judaism, it does not accept Jesus as God, ergo, Judaism would have a different God than Christianity by the same rational you use to state that Islam does. But we know this is not true, nor would you argue that the Jews worship a different God, they just worship God incorrectly in your views (as would the Muslims).

In reality though, all three religions worship the same God, they differ in their views of God's actions later on. This is a fact.

Like I told GMG, you can argue that a certain view/faith is the one and only correct interpretation, as those three religions do, but you can not argue that they worship a different god, they simply have different views of worship. When it comes to Islam, Judaism and Christianity, God is God, period.

Deal with it and having the same God as Islam doesn't take away from your faith in Jesus, another fact.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I beg to differ with you. They are not correct to say that Christians and Muslims are referring to the same Person because it is not really a matter of interpretation. For example, the Bible affirms throughout that the Father has a Son, but the Qu'ran denies this basic yet essential verity. That is not a misinterpretation that is a contradiction. For example, let's say that I have a secretary and I instruct her to record in a memo that I have a son, and she does it. Then she is replaced by someone else who records that I do not have a son. This is an example of a contradiction not a misinterpretation. Now, if I had told the first secretary that I had a son and she misheard me perhaps that could be described as a misinterpretation.

Many books of the Bible preceded the Qu'ran by hundreds of years. The youngest book in the New Testament preceded the Qu'ran by at least 500 years. The youngest book in the Old Testament preceded the Qu'ran by at least 1,000 years.

Again, the contradictions are significant, glaring, and cogently prove that YHWH Who is called the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, cannot be one and the same with Allah. YHWH is a personal God Who loves humanity and desires to have a relationship with them. YHWH is called Father and seeks to make every one of us His sons and daughters by adoption through His Son Jesus Christ. But Allah does not have a son and does not seek to know his creation on a personal level according to the Qu'ran.

http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch3.html#ch3-9

In addition, Jesus and Muhammed contradict each other.

http://www.carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/thechristiandifference.shtml

http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/IslamShortComp.htm

http://members.aol.com/AllahIslam/part3.html

"leep thyn heart".........."only fools ill make a mokey of it , just like the tea glass.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
In addition, Jesus and Muhammed contradict each other.

http://www.carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/thechristiandifference.shtml

http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/IslamShortComp.htm

http://members.aol.com/AllahIslam/part3.html

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
In addition, Jesus and Muhammed contradict each other.

They do, but the God the Christians and Muslims (and Jews) worship is still the same. The interpretations differ after a certain point, that is the difference.

Deny (fear) it all you want and it's rather funny that Christians like you who have negative stigmas about Islam try and separate yourselves from them in this silly matter despite the proof that Islam is based off the Abrahamic God.

Like I said, just because you worship the same God at the core, doesn't mean that your views on Jesus (the NT) are more or less valid. "Fear is the mind-killer."

Originally posted by Robtard

Deny (fear) it all you want and it's rather funny that Christians like you who have negative stigmas about Islam try and separate yourselves from them in this silly matter despite the proof that Islam is based off the Abrahamic God.

That's exactly what it is. Neo Crusaders like JIA want to estrange Islam as far from Christianity as can (they can't).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But Allah...does not seek to know his creation on a personal level.

Oh really, show me the Koranic verse that says so.

Originally posted by Robtard
They do, but the God the Christians and Muslims (and Jews) worship is still the same. The interpretations differ after a certain point, that is the difference.

Deny (fear) it all you want and it's rather funny that Christians like you who have negative stigmas about Islam try and separate yourselves from them in this silly matter despite the proof that Islam is based off the Abrahamic God.

Like I said, just because you worship the same God at the core, doesn't mean that your views on Jesus (the NT) are more or less valid. "Fear is the mind-killer."

Repeating a statement does not make that declaration true. This is perhaps now the third time that you have stated that Christians and Muslims worship the same deity. But what is consistent in its absence is any logical support for what you claim. On the contrary I have substantiated my position with evidence from the Bible and the Qu'ran that conspicuously refute your entire claim (which thus far has not been supported with anything other than your own opinion).

Here again are the statements that you have not supported:

1) the God the Christians and Muslims (and Jews) worship is still the same. The interpretations differ after a certain point, that is the difference.

No, I would not call a contradiction a matter of interpretation. Here are just some major contradictions between the Bible and the Qu'ran which proves that they did not originate from the same divine Source:

The Qu’ran contradicts the Bible
Many stories of the Bible that have been recorded in the Qu’ran were misquoted and are contradictory to the Bible. Here are a few: examples:

The story of Cain and Abel

After Cain killed his brother Abel, The Qu’ran says that "God sent a raven who scratched the ground to show him how to hide the shame of his brother." Surah 5:34. This is not mentioned in the Bible.

The story of Noah and the flood

1. The Qu’ran in Surah 11:42 & 43 says that one of the sons of Noah refused to go into the Ark and was drowned in the flood, while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood (Genesis 7:7).
2. In Surah 11:44 the Qu’ran says that the Ark came to rest on top of mount Judi, While the Bible says that it was Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:4).

The Story of Abraham

1. Abraham's father, according to the Qu’ran, is Azar (Surah 6:74), while the Bible says that his name was Terah (Genesis 11:26).
2. The Qu’ran says Abraham had two sons, the Bible says they were eight
3. The Qu’ran says Abraham lived in the valley of Mecca (Surah 14:37),while the Bible says he lived in Hebron (Genesis 13:18).
4. In the Qu’ran Abraham sacrificed Ismael Surah 37:100-112),while the Bible says it was Isaac (Genesis 22)
5. The Qu’ran says that Abraham had two wives, in the Bible he had three.
6. The Qu’ran says that he built the Kaaba (Surah 2:125-127). The Bible has no record of that.

The story of Moses

1. The Qu’ran states that the one who adopted Moses was Pharaoh's wife (Surah 28:9), While the Bible says it was Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2:5)
2. The Qu’ran states that Haman lived in Egypt during Moses' time (Surah 27:4-6), while the Bible says that Haman lived in Persia during King Ahasuerus time (Esther 3:1).

The story of Mary (the mother of Jesus)

1. The Qu’ran states that her brother was Aaron (Surah 19:28), while the Bible says that Aaron lived 1300 years before Mary (Numbers 26:59).
2. That she gave birth to Jesus under a palm tree (Surah 19:13),while the Bible says it was in a stable (Luke 2:7).
3. That Jesus spoke and made miracles at the time he was a baby (Surah 19:24-26). The Bible has no record of that.
4. That Zacharias could not speak for three days (Surah 19:10), while the Bible says he could not speak until the child was born (or for about 9 months) Luke 1:20.

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Since the Bible came first, and since there is every reason to believe that the Bible was kept uncorrupted, Muslim theologians have lots of explaining to do with regard to such contradictions in their Book.
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For more information, write to [email protected]
Last modified June 22, 1996
http://members.aol.com/thetruth/biblevs.htm

2) Deny (fear) it all you want and it's rather funny that Christians like you who have negative stigmas about Islam try and separate yourselves from them in this silly matter despite the proof that Islam is based off the Abrahamic God.

Well, I guess anyone can make a book put Abraham's name in it and then claim that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (i.e. YHWH) and Allah are one and the same. But that does not make that statement true. Again, go back up and re-read the glaring contradictions that disprove the myth that they are the same deity. The Bible states that God is immutable (i.e. He does not change, ever). The above contradictions ought to raise a red flag in your mind and show beyond a reasonable doubt that what you have been told concerning Islam is not based on fact, but pure tradition and untruth. Allah might mean god in Arabic but that does not mean that it refers to the God of the Bible--whose Name is YHWH, not Allah. You see, God is not the personal Name of the God of the Bible, it is more a description of the position that God holds with respect to His creation. For example, with respect to those who are married, the word husband describes the position that the man holds relative to the wife. However, husband is not the personal name of the man. Similarly, God is not God's Name it is a descriptive title or appellation that denotes the position of the Creator with regard to His creatures. There are many gods in the world and every single one of them has an idol associated with it (including Allah). In stark contrast, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob i.e. YHWH has never had an idol associated with Him (these are the facts).

3) Like I said, just because you worship the same God at the core, doesn't mean that your views on Jesus (the NT) are more or less valid. "Fear is the mind-killer

You write this statement presumptively as if it is a foregone conclusion, but you have not established that they are the same deity.

My views on Jesus are supported by Scripture which is saying a lot. Again, can you validated claims 1, 2, & 3 that I have organized for you or shall I conclude that you are unable to?

In addition, Jesus and Muhammed contradict each other (more evidence that the YHWH and Allah are not one and the same):

http://www.carm.org/islam/Jesus_Muhammad.htm

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/thechristiandifference.shtml

http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/IslamShortComp.htm