Originally posted by Da Pittman
It really isn't a sacrifice if you know you are going to be coming back. Just a thought.
Going through pain and the doubt- which yes he had as a human being- was the sacrifice.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Whats he sacrifcing for exacltey? Nobody gains from his death....
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavThe problem is that before he came down to Earth he was all knowing so he would have known what was going to happen before it happened. It wouldn't make a difference what he did or said when he was "human" because he would have already known what he was going to do before he did it, if not then God is not all knowing.
Father, why have you forsaken me?
Its pretty simple.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
The problem is that before he came down to Earth he was all knowing so he would have known what was going to happen before it happened. It wouldn't make a difference what he did or said when he was "human" because he would have already known what he was going to do before he did it, if not then God is not all knowing.Its pretty simple.
He was both fully human and fully divine.
His humanity was certainly capable of causing him to doubt, even his own divinity and his mission.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavWas Jesus human before he appeared on Earth? Before he became Jesus did he have doubt and was he all knowing? Was not God always the Trinity?
He was both fully human and fully divine.His humanity was certainly capable of causing him to doubt, even his own divinity and his mission.
If God has always been the Trinity then that would mean that God is part human and has doubt and is not all knowing. If Jesus was not human before being "born" on Earth then he would have been all knowing as God is supposed to be so there would have been no doubt. Do you not see this paradox?
God the Son was MADE man.
God is omnipotent, omniscient and infinite in every way. Any paradoxes which arsie from our attempts to understand him are a result of the fact that we are incapable of being able to understand a being of such magnitude.
An ant could never understand the complexities of you. Neither could you ever understand the complexities of God.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavAnd before he was made man he was all knowing God so he would have known what was going to happen before it happened, hence no sacrifice because he would already know what was going to happen before he became man.
God the Son was MADE man.God is omnipotent, omniscient and infinite in every way. Any paradoxes which arsie from our attempts to understand him are a result of the fact that we are incapable of being able to understand a being of such magnitude.
An ant could never understand the complexities of you. Neither could you ever understand the complexities of God.
Again the paradox.
That is such a BS answer and a copout becuase you can not answer the question. If God is all knowing it is plain and simple, he would know everything and if he doesn't then he is not all knowing.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
And before he was made man he was all knowing God so he would have known what was going to happen before it happened, hence no sacrifice because he would already know what was going to happen before he became man.Again the paradox.
That is such a BS answer and a copout becuase you can not answer the question. If God is all knowing it is plain and simple, he would know everything and if he doesn't then he is not all knowing.
He was MADE man...therefore his humanity could doubt himself...have you never had doubts?
Jesus always KNEW what would happen, but sometimes he doubted himself.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavYes I've have doubts lots of them but I'm now all knowing or a god.
He was MADE man...therefore his humanity could doubt himself...have you never had doubts?Jesus always KNEW what would happen, but sometimes he doubted himself.
Before he was MADE man he was all knowing, it doesn't make a difference that he was MADE human and having human flaws and doubts. The point is that before he was MADE he would have already known what was going to happen before he was MADE human. I consider you to be a pretty pragmatic person from what I have seen of you but you are getting into circular logic that seems to be the standard when getting to the fundimentals of God.
How can God be all kowing and no nothing at the same time?
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavThen it was not a sacrifice but a demonstration. He was not giving up his life because he knew that he wasn't, he was giving up his godhood for a little while knowing full well that he would return to it, while he was human he didn't know this but before he became human he did. If you knew that by giving up your house for a year you would become super rich would that be a sacrifice?
He did know what was going to happen, but his humanity caused him to briefly doubt that knowledge...
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Then it was not a sacrifice but a demonstration. He was not giving up his life because he knew that he wasn't, he was giving up his godhood for a little while knowing full well that he would return to it, while he was human he didn't know this but before he became human he did. If you knew that by giving up your house for a year you would become super rich would that be a sacrifice?
His sacrifice was to become man, suffer and die. He gained nothing from that sacrifice, the only people who gained from it was us.
Oh and your definition of sacrifice is flawed... a sacrifice is given in order to gain benefits. So everyone who makes a sacrifice is inteding to become "super rich" as you put it.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavHe did not "die", he died as a human but he still lives as his original self as a god.
His sacrifice was to become man, suffer and die. He gained nothing from that sacrifice, the only people who gained from it was us.Oh and your definition of sacrifice is flawed... a sacrifice is given in order to gain benefits. So everyone who makes a sacrifice is inteding to become "super rich" as you put it.
No I have not even tried to define what a sacrifice is, I was asking you if what he did knowing the outcome is a sacrifice. A sacrifice is either a punishment for your deeds or giving up something to gain something. So yes he gave up his godhood to (in his terms a picoseconds) to forgive us of our sins. Yes he did gain something, becoming the savior of mankind, to be worshiped and praised for his sacrifice for us. So yes he did gain something and did it for a reason the same would be a father giving his life for his kids, he is doing this to give his kid the gift of life. Now the problem is that Jesus did this knowing that he is not giving anything up but a moment of discomfort.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
He did not "die", he died as a human but he still lives as his original self as a god.No I have not even tried to define what a sacrifice is, I was asking you if what he did knowing the outcome is a sacrifice. A sacrifice is either a punishment for your deeds or giving up something to gain something. So yes he gave up his godhood to (in his terms a picoseconds) to forgive us of our sins. Yes he did gain something, becoming the savior of mankind, to be worshiped and praised for his sacrifice for us. So yes he did gain something and did it for a reason the same would be a father giving his life for his kids, he is doing this to give his kid the gift of life. Now the problem is that Jesus did this knowing that he is not giving anything up but a moment of discomfort.
Still a sacrifice.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavSo what do you consider a bigger sacrifice?
Still a sacrifice.
Giving your life to save mankind knowing you will return to a god?
Giving your life to save mankind knowing you are going to heaven?
Giving your life to save mankind knowing you are dead and not coming back?
For me Jesus the god did jack shit, Jesus the man is something to be proud of, Joe Blow the Atheist giving his life to save mankind trumps them all.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
So what do you consider a bigger sacrifice?Giving your life to save mankind knowing you will return to a god?
Giving your life to save mankind knowing you are going to heaven?
Giving your life to save mankind knowing you are dead and not coming back?For me Jesus the god did jack shit, Jesus the man is something to be proud of, Joe Blow the Atheist giving his life to save mankind trumps them all.
I think you are totally wrong. However, that is up to you. Doesn't really matter...you don't even think the sacrifice was necessary...you don't even think Jesus was necessary...
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavWell I doesn't matter what I think, I know that you and I disagree on the idea of God and that is fine but I would like to know which you think is the bigger sacrifice. I do respect your views and out of the hundreds of people that I debate or talk about religion I do have to say I enjoy ours. We may disagree but I think you do bring solid arguments for your views.
I think you are totally wrong. However, that is up to you. Doesn't really matter...you don't even think the sacrifice was necessary...you don't even think Jesus was necessary...
Originally posted by Da Pittman
Well I doesn't matter what I think, I know that you and I disagree on the idea of God and that is fine but I would like to know which you think is the bigger sacrifice. I do respect your views and out of the hundreds of people that I debate or talk about religion I do have to say I enjoy ours. We may disagree but I think you do bring solid arguments for your views.
Well it does matter what you think because it is what you think that will determine your eternal fate, and also actions in this life.
I still feel your perspective on the Sacrifice of Jesus is wrong. It is not necessarily right to judge a sacrifice's importance by the volume of something being sacrificed rather by the outcomes.
Jesus' sacrifice was one he willingly made, knowing he would return to the status quo after the ordeal but even so it was still a sacrifice- which redeemed mankind and offered an escape from the taint of Original Sin and all sin's in general.
Man had transgressed against God and a debt had to be paid, Jesus paid it for you.
The notion that his sacrifice was somehow not admirable because he knew he was going to be all right seems altogether trivial in my eyes.