Can you handle the Truth?

But the idea that God already knows whats going to happen, means the future can only happen one way.
If the future can only happen one way, then there are no other options or possiblities.
If thier are no other options or possibilities, then everything we do is already done, fixed.
Therefore, we really don't have a choice. The timeline is fixed, like a BOOK that God is reading.
The characters of a BOOK do not have thier own choices, no matter how many times you read the book, the ending will always be the same. There is no freedom of choice involved, because freedom of choice would mean different endings (options).
Do you understand this ?
You can't choose to love someone, you either do or you don't. It comes naturally, not forced.
God doesn't respect our Free Will at all, if he did, he wouldn't send people to eternal torture as a punishment for our choices. [/QUOTE]

Ok Kali,

-First of all. God is timeless. He can see present, past and future at the same time, because time has not meaning for him, as it doesn't have for spiritual beings. It is not like the comic books, or Sci-fi movies when someone takes a glimpse of the future, alternative timelines, etc.

- I will use your metaphore of the Book that you brought up. God certainly read the Book of mankind of existence all pages at the same time. He certainly intervenes in some of the pages to reveal himself to mankind, but the pages are mostly written by us, and for us. Life is the only book written by characters.

- The concept of free will, making free decisions is binded to the concept of "responsibility". Every decision we freely make, has a consequence and, we the concept of free will requires that we take full responsability for the consequences of the decisions we make. There are many factors and circunstances that effect the grade of freedom in which you make your decisions, there are many factor as ignorance that lessen your responsability of the consequences of some of your decisions, but finally you decide the path you are taking, and you have to be responsible for your decisions and their consequences.

-God want all us to be saved, and he has established the path for doing so. It is our decisions to follow it or not.

Take care

Originally posted by darkfan76
...-God want all us to be saved, and he has established the path for doing so. It is our decisions to follow it or not.

Take care

Originally posted by darkfan76
Ok Kali,

-First of all. God is timeless. He can see present, past and future at the same time, because time has not meaning for him, as it doesn't have for spiritual beings. It is not like the comic books, or Sci-fi movies when someone takes a glimpse of the future, alternative timelines, etc.

- I will use your metaphore of the Book that you brought up. God certainly read the Book of mankind of existence all pages at the same time. He certainly intervenes in some of the pages to reveal himself to mankind, but the pages are mostly written by us, and for us. Life is the only book written by characters.

- The concept of free will, making free decisions is binded to the concept of "responsibility". Every decision we freely make, has a consequence and, we the concept of free will requires that we take full responsability for the consequences of the decisions we make. There are many factors and circunstances that effect the grade of freedom in which you make your decisions, there are many factor as ignorance that lessen your responsability of the consequences of some of your decisions, but finally you decide the path you are taking, and you have to be responsible for your decisions and their consequences.

-God want all us to be saved, and he has established the path for doing so. It is our decisions to follow it or not.

Take care

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
This is were your point falls apart. How do you know what god wants?

This is "I first give the conclusion, then I formulate the question, so the readers are biased before any answer is given". 😛

Because he has revealed himself to mankind through Jesus Christ, and there is the living testimony of Christians starting 2,000 years up-to-date about Christ teachings and commandments. Historic Testimony of Christians is all written in documents that are easily retrievable, including Bible itself.

I won't give you texts from the Bible to support this, because you don't believe in the Bible anyway, and I don't believe in Christianity only because of the Bible, but because of the documented testimony of Christians through time.

Anyway, it is finally a matter of faith. True faith. Faith is not a logical or intellectual conclusion, an emotion or a sentiment only, but reason should support what you believe by faith. There is not contradiction among faith and reason. Of course, don't tell that to the fundamentalists. 😉

I can handle the truth... but can the truth handle me? Oh! Giggity giggiy goo!

Most people can NOT handle the truth, that's why they don't question.

Originally posted by darkfan76
This is "I first give the conclusion, then I formulate the question, so the readers are biased before any answer is given". 😛

Because he has revealed himself to mankind through Jesus Christ, and there is the living testimony of Christians starting 2,000 years up-to-date about Christ teachings and commandments. Historic Testimony of Christians is all written in documents that are easily retrievable, including Bible itself.

I won't give you texts from the Bible to support this, because you don't believe in the Bible anyway, and I don't believe in Christianity only because of the Bible, but because of the documented testimony of Christians through time.

Anyway, it is finally a matter of faith. True faith. Faith is not a logical or intellectual conclusion, an emotion or a sentiment only, but reason should support what you believe by faith. There is not contradiction among faith and reason. Of course, don't tell that to the fundamentalists. 😉

I believe that the bible exists because I have one, but I do not believe that the bible is a reflection of what God wants. It is what man wants.

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
The problem is that for God the book has already been published, read and is collecting dust on his shelf, no matter what man “decides” it has already been read by God. The point is to God there is no free will because he already knows what and when man will make his decisions, it is like playing a game of Plinko and the ball has many choices of where it can go after it has been released with no control from the person that dropped it but only one place it will end up because it has already been seen.

OK, Don't bash God for being God, and being timeless, and eternal, and infinite, just because us, limited beings have a hard time trying to understand those concepts and him.

Following the metaphore of the Book, Let's take for example a History Book, let's say about American Civil War.

I can read the final first. Then I will know who won the war and its consequences. Did I make the North win the war? Not.

God knowing the final, doesn't make us write te pages of our life's book. Is us. Knowing it is not the same as causing.

You know,
-some Christians groups (followers of Calvin's theroies) deny free will stating that God had created some for Heaven and others for Hell. So for them God basically created robots.

- Some non-believers deny God because for them free will doesn't make sense with an omniscient God that already know what is going to happen

I, as a Christian, believe in free will as the greatest gift for God, being aware of things, having intelligence, understanding, brains, give me an edge above all creations. Make my own destiny. Does God know how I'm going to end up?, Yes. Does he make me make the decision I make? Not. I accept the responsability of my actions everyday, and I certainly know that everything I do, have consequences for good or for bad.

I guess I've said enough of this particular topic, not for convincing anybody but for letting you to know what my beliefs are.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I believe that the bible exists because I have one, but I do not believe that the bible is a reflection of what God wants. It is what man wants.

Good for you! .

For me Bible is the testimony of men inspired by God, about the ways God has reveal himself through history to mankind. Bible is both human and divine. And Bible exists even if you and I don't have one.

Good for me! 😆

Originally posted by darkfan76
Good for you! .

For me Bible is the testimony of men inspired by God, about the ways God has reveal himself through history to mankind. Bible is both human and divine. And Bible exists even if you and I don't have one.

Good for me! 😆

But you still cannot say you know what God wants.

Originally posted by darkfan76
OK, Don't bash God for being God, and being timeless, and eternal, and infinite, just because us, limited beings have a hard time trying to understand those concepts and him.

Following the metaphore of the Book, Let's take for example a History Book, let's say about American Civil War.

I can read the final first. Then I will know who won the war and its consequences. Did I make the North win the war? Not.

God knowing the final, doesn't make us write te pages of our life's book. Is us. Knowing it is not the same as causing.

You know,
-some Christians groups (followers of Calvin's theroies) deny free will stating that God had created some for Heaven and others for Hell. So for them God basically created robots.

- Some non-believers deny God because for them free will doesn't make sense with an omniscient God that already know what is going to happen

I, as a Christian, believe in free will as the greatest gift for God, being aware of things, having intelligence, understanding, brains, give me an edge above all creations. Make my own destiny. Does God know how I'm going to end up?, Yes. Does he make me make the decision I make? Not. I accept the responsability of my actions everyday, and I certainly know that everything I do, have consequences for good or for bad.

I guess I've said enough of this particular topic, not for convincing anybody but for letting you to know what my beliefs are.

While for man and it’s perception we do have free will however God doesn’t have these limits so in the eyes of God we do not because our story is already written in his eyes.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you still cannot say you know what God wants.

We, believers can say about God, only what he has reveal about himself to mankind. No one can brag about knowing God perfectly. About the specific topic of mankind's salvation he has revealed that he wants everybody to be saved. This revelation has been transmitted by Christians for 2000 years , and some 1950 years ago it was written by
Apostle Paul.

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

But you don't believe in the Bible anyway so don't pay to much attention to me. 🙄

Originally posted by darkfan76
We, believers can say about God, only what he has reveal about himself to mankind. No one can brag about knowing God perfectly. About the specific topic of mankind's salvation he has revealed that he wants everybody to be saved. This revelation has been transmitted by Christians for 2000 years , and some 1950 years ago it was written by
Apostle Paul.

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4

But you don't believe in the Bible anyway so don't pay to much attention to me. 🙄

This is my point. You can only know your own path; but if God wishes to let a non-saved Buddhist into heaven, who are you to tell God no?

Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
I’m not bashing God, well maybe sometimes but not in this and I clearly understand the concept and you seem to miss this as example in this post. The thing you are trying to compare to is God which is timeless and all-knowing and supposed to have created everything so you reading the end of a book are pointless unless you started the Civil War knowing how it would end.

While for man and it’s perception we do have free will however God doesn’t have these limits so in the eyes of God we do not because our story is already written in his eyes.

Hard to try to see things through God's eyes? Isn't it? Specially considering that he is our creator and gave us the free will to act as we want, but also established a certain path to be followed to return to him. Why doesn't he allow us anything that we want? It could seem pointless to do anything when you know how it is going to end for us, but not really, remember Love is only God's motivation and he has intervened in the history of mankind to show us that, but a positive and active is always required from us, using our freedom.

Even though I don't like Jim Carrey too much, the movie "Bruce all mighty" is very illustrative about how we very often make judgements about God and the concepts we usually handle about him, his motivations, about his relationship with mankind, etc. Take care!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
This is my point. You can only know your own path; but if God wishes to let a non-saved Buddhist into heaven, who are you to tell God no?

When did I say Buddhists won't go to Heaven? When did I say Heaven is only for Christians? When did I say all Christians will go to heaven.

It was revealed by God to Christians 2000 years ago that God will judge differently to those who has not received the revelation of Christ and this revelation was written about 1945 years ago by Apostle Paul.

"For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus".
Rom, 2, 14-16

You see, Christians believes that Judgement will be more severe for Christians that for other people, who will then judged by their consciences.

If a Christian tells you that Heaven is only for Christians, he or she is lying or ignores what Bible tells about that particular subject, and what Christianity have believed for 2000 years.

Originally posted by darkfan76
When did I say Buddhists won't go to Heaven? When did I say Heaven is only for Christians? When did I say all Christians will go to heaven.

It was revealed by God to Christians 2000 years ago that God will judge differently to those who has not received the revelation of Christ and this revelation was written about 1945 years ago by Apostle Paul.

"For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus".
Rom, 2, 14-16

You see, Christians believes that Judgement will be more severe for Christians that for other people, who will then judged by their consciences.

If a Christian tells you that Heaven is only for Christians, he or she is lying or ignores what Bible tells about that particular subject, and what Christianity have believed for 2000 years.

😆 Then tell that to JIA.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😆 Then tell that to JIA.

Don't know JIA, but seems to be very popular around here. Fundamentalists use to be even more intolerant with other Christians who doesn't think alike, than they are with no Christians.

Originally posted by darkfan76
Don't know JIA, but seems to be very popular around here. Fundamentalists use to be even more intolerant with other Christians who doesn't think alike, than they are with no Christians.

Just wait until he comes back. 😉

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Jesus is either
1)mentally ill
2) lying
3) joking
4) or what He said that He is, the only way to God the Father.

There is no evidence or reason to suggest that Jesus was mentally ill. Lying is a sin and the Bible states that Jesus never sinned. We have no record in the Bible of Jesus ever telling any jokes. So the only alternative is that Jesus spoke truly.

There are no other alternatives.

There is enough evidence that he was mentally ill, some Schizophrenics are absolutely brilliant, but they still hear and see things that aren't there, the following link shows what schizophrenia is, maybe he was telling the truth, but the likeliness is rather... low

http://www.nym.org/healthinfo/docs/047/doc47.html

also with your earlier saying one could only find truth by 'sincerely' asking for forgiveness on the sins you have apparently committed by simply being born to find the truth... by the time you can 'sincerely' ask that you've already lost all reason and logic and no longer can tell the difference of logical truth (due to the loss of logic) and think that the logical thing is what in today's world is seeming to become less and less likely... like a conspiracy theorist, plus if god is real and tries to contact us and only contacts one rather than the whole... his prophets getting tossed into a mental hospital, and people will only think he's crazy, and I mean EVERYONE including the extreme Christians, in fact especially them, now if your wondering "Why does he have to be so mean?" then... i apologize for my straight forwardness but this seemed like the appropriate thread considering the title.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
This is my point. You can only know your own path; but if God wishes to let a non-saved Buddhist into heaven, who are you to tell God no?

God does not violate His Word.