OAA, True Beyonders, Infinity Being > LT> Infinites, Hunger, > Multi Eternity/Infnity/Death/Oblivion, Cosmic Egg , MykaarCrystal....so on
Originally posted by Galan007
LT > IG > UN > Multi-Eternity > Eternity (singular) > Celestials > Franklyn.In short LT or all the Celestials would annihilate Franklyn IMO.
Originally posted by guy222
There's a reason the celestials regard franklin as a peerAs one who knows bout the celestials wouldn't put franklin above Tiamut, Exitar or Arishem
Well, as stated several times, the creator of this thread specifically referred to a "full potential" Franklin, which (to me) implies the following:
Full access to his powers, i.e., no mental dampers or other external restraints, such as "psycho armor" (previously worn by Franklin's teen version Psi-Lord) to inhibit his abilities
Full comprehensive knowledge/skill over his tremendous abilities
Fully developed intellect in adulthood
Having said that, as someone who knows about both Franklin AND the celestials, I believe that a "full potential" Franklin would be able to defeat one or more celestials, with exception to the older, more experienced entities, such as Arishem or Exitar.
In the upcoming issues of both FF books (released later this month), the celestials, Galactus and the adult Franklin Richards will all likely make an appearance. It should be interesting.
Originally posted by Galan007
The CN and the UN both nullify their target. That said, the CN unquestionably could have killed Abraxas. Nullification is nullification. However, the CN could not have remade the universe(s) it destroyed in the process (remember, the CN can only target whole universes at a time.) Permanently destroying universes is a path Roma would NEVER willingly travel.That, again, is why the UN was optimal: it could nullify/destroy Abraxas, nullify/destroy the multiverse, AND recreate/realign it. That's why Roma knew well beforehand that it would be used to "win the day."
I also think it's important to recall that the CN is a one way ticket, when the crystal have been broken (triggering the nullification) that's it, but it also make killing Abraxas kinda difficult to say the least, as Abraxas can just relocate himself to another reality, running from the UN isn't quite so easy.
Originally posted by Utrigita
I also think it's important to recall that the CN is a one way ticket, when the crystal have been broken (triggering the nullification) that's it, but it also make killing Abraxas kinda difficult to say the least, as Abraxas can just relocate himself to another reality, running from the UN isn't quite so easy.
Tell that to Korvac. All he did was move his power to a different timeline and the Nullifier was foiled.
Originally posted by Doon
Well, as stated several times, the creator of this thread specifically referred to a "full potential" Franklin, which (to me) implies the following:Full access to his powers, i.e., no mental dampers or other external restraints, such as "psycho armor" (previously worn by Franklin's teen version Psi-Lord) to inhibit his abilities
Full comprehensive knowledge/skill over his tremendous abilities
Fully developed intellect in adulthood
Having said that, as someone who knows about both Franklin AND the celestials, I believe that a "full potential" Franklin would be able to defeat one or more celestials, with exception to the older, more experienced entities, such as Arishem or Exitar.
In the upcoming issues of both FF books (released later this month), the celestials, Galactus and the adult Franklin Richards will all likely make an appearance. It should be interesting.
i know all that 😛
i tweet the editor in chief and editors
i have told all here franklin as avatar, psilord has 'died' in the future
it was a celestial who brought him to life
i also told us that it should b franklin to put an end to the galactus/celestials war because its senseless
good point u made 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007There was nothing in your subsequent post that I ever disagreed with.
Franklin didn't know about that, but Roma must've,
cause she manipulated events just so Valeria/Franklin could restore big G
in order to do just that.
Originally posted by Galan007The Chaos Wave posed a far greater threat than Abraxas (omniversal
compared to multiversal)--and it caused more devastation on panel as well.
I'd consider any options at that point, too.
In the Abraxas arc, Eternity/Infinity were the embodiment of everything.
Roma said it:
"All that ever was, is, or will be" is the Omniverse ... to Roma.
Originally posted by Galan007Regardless, threatening to use something is certainly not the same as actually
using it. Either way, my only point was that the CN COULD have destroyed Abraxas
(nullification is nullification.) However, there was no reason for Roma to
permanently destroy any universes when the UN (which possessed the power to
destroy AND recreate/realign the multiverse) was available... And since Roma
knew the UN would be used to "win the day" from the beginning, the CN simply
was never needed.
The UN is not supposed to auto erase-re-create at the click of a button,
unless of course we take into account this:
"It would be as if the" (target) "never existed...
was never born," (target) "and all actions" (target) "took during its lifetime would cease to have been,
and the effects of those actions would likewise be nullified"
-------------------------------
This is corroborated in the Handbooks, specifically the UN's bio:
-------------------------------
The Handbooks tell us when Reed hit Abraxas,
it undid the damage Abraxas had cause to reality:
---------------------------------------------------
Otherwise, Reed should have been nullified along with everything else,
and NOTHING should have been left behind in order to click the button again on "nothingness"
which is what re-creates Reality with the UN:
---------------------------------------------------
I know yall won't accept that though, 😛
cause it forces you to agree that nullifying Abraxas alone re-created the Multiverse
in-order to rid reality of Abraxas and realign all there is.
Originally posted by zopzop
Tell that to Korvac. All he did was move his power to a different timeline and the Nullifier was foiled.
So Korvac stripped himself of all his power? And I'm fairly certain that the UN killed the girl Korvac had revived because she was having a part of his energy in her.
But anyway my point was that the UN is far more "handy" in terms of use then the CN. I wasn't trying to correct anything Galan said merely adding a bit of info on the CN and it's limitations.
Originally posted by Mr MasterRoma possibly knowing has nothing to do with anything I said. 😛
Franklin didn't know about that, but Roma must've,
Originally posted by Mr MasterYou're right, I won't accept it. Why? Because that line of logic completely contradicts what Reed himself explicitly told us.
I know yall won't accept that though, 😛
cause it forces you to agree that nullifying Abraxas alone re-created the Multiverse
in-order to rid reality of Abraxas and realign all there is.
-Reed-
"In order to realign all that is, we needed to end all that was":
Or in even simpler terms: "In order to fix the damage Abraxas caused, we had to destroy the multiverse." If nullifying Abraxas alone would have set things right, Reed would have just nullified him... But he didn't.
Anywho, I agree that the UN *shouldn't* be able to recreate/realign that which it destroys--but for the purposes of that arc, it was clearly capable of doing so.
...And I still maintain that the CN could have destroyed Abraxas (nullification is nullification.) It just couldn't have fixed the damage he caused, without permanently destroying the universes involved. The UN was the superior weapon in that scenario.
Originally posted by guy222
i know all that 😛i tweet the editor in chief and editors
i have told all here franklin as avatar, psilord has 'died' in the future
it was a celestial who brought him to life
i also told us that it should b franklin to put an end to the galactus/celestials war because its senseless
good point u made 🙂
Yes, I saw your previous posts on the subject. To me, Psi-lord and Avatar are practically different characters even though they are both older versions of Franklin Richards.
Here are my thoughts on Avatar:
In FF #245, Franklin accidentally used his reality altering/molecular manipulation powers to age himself into adulthood. This particular adult version of FR was extremely powerful in my opinion; he was rather godlike in that he could do virtually anything he set his mind to. It's important to point out, though, that John Byrne, the author of FF #245, never referred to this "grown up" Franklin as Avatar. Another writer took it upon himself to apply the name 'Avatar' much later.
My thoughts on Psi-Lord:
As stated previously, this version of FR has a convoluted background; and I blame Tom DeFalco for that entirely. DeFalco essentially wanted to transform Franklin into a teenage version of Cable. He sent the character into the far-flung future, where he was subsequently raised to a be a gun-toting, time-traveling warrior (like Cable). Similar to Cable's techno-organic virus, which was/is used to dampen the character's power level, Psi-Lord was given "psycho-armor" -- a special suit bonded to Franklin's physical structure, that siphoned off the full extent of his abilities, limiting them to telekinesis and telepathy (like Cable). And fyi, this version of Franklin never died. Rather, someone (Psi-Lord himself?) went back in time to the moment where young Franklin was initially kidnapped by Nathaniel and returned the child to his parents before he could be raised in the future to become Psi-Lord. Thankfully, this version of the character is obsolete in the 616 time continuum now. He never existed -- even though we know he did.
Now, there is also a parallel version of an adult Franklin from Rachel Summers' universe (who may or may not be as powerful as our Franklin from Earth 616); he appears in the classic Days of Future Past storyline. This is the particular version you make mention of who 'died in the future'. Keep in mind, though, that he brought himself back to life by sheer force of will and was powerful enough in 'death' to cross over to the 616 universe in Days of Future Present.
And yes, a Celestial did bring young Franklin back to life in the Heroes Reborn: The Return limited series, but I like to think the character was merely sleeping. Indeed, with proper training in the use of his powers, in my opinion, Franklin would have been able to resurrect himself without the aid of any Celestial. That point is mute though since FR was clearly untrained back then and is still a novice to some degree even now (although it's nice to see that someone is finally tutoring him in the use of those abilities).
To be honest, I personally find it difficult to fathom how such powerful characters go about fighting among themselves anyway. Reality warping (especially up to a cosmic scale, as exemplified by Franklin) essentially means you basically have the power to do whatever you want. Want to grow up instantaneously? Done. Want to make Mephisto disappear in a flash of light? Done. Want to undo Asgardian magic and save Ben Grimm from the brink of death (after he was fatally wounded by Thor)? Done. Want to create your own bloody universe??? Done. It's pretty staggering. And Celestials obviously are able to achieve much of the same thing in terms of sheer power, so how does one outdo the other? To make matters even more confusing, guys like Jim Starlin craft elaborate stories where noobs like Thanos acquire some "weapon" of sorts that turns them into overnight king of the omniverse. I'll still never understand how Thanos managed to defeat The Living Tribunal. I get that he had a very powerful weapon in the form of the "heart of the universe", but I don't think that should be enough to take down a character as obviously powerful as the LT. Hmm..
That was a long post. Yikes!
personally I've said this a while back but it seems to me Franklin's been growing more and more powerful in terms of his estimated future potential due to power creep. I believe he will be sidelined if he ever attains full power whether on his own conscious decision as a "good guy" knowing it's too much power/cosmic event revolving entirely around circumstances nullifying him as a universal power whether by power removal or cosmic law getting put into effect preventing him from interfering. With his recent showings I can say a future potential Franklin Richards could be anywhere from Mad Jim Jaspers level all the way to classic beyonder. Arguing exactly what is going to be a full potential Franklin is a moot point as of this moment simply because he's already shown at his current age he can tangle with celestials, what is too come is all speculation and his powers could in fact exponentially increase... so like I said full potential for Franklin could be where he is right now all the way to Classic Beyonder... there really is no saying at this point.
Originally posted by Uriel005
personally I've said this a while back but it seems to me Franklin's been growing more and more powerful in terms of his estimated future potential due to power creep. I believe he will be sidelined if he ever attains full power whether on his own conscious decision as a "good guy" knowing it's too much power/cosmic event revolving entirely around circumstances nullifying him as a universal power whether by power removal or cosmic law getting put into effect preventing him from interfering. With his recent showings I can say a future potential Franklin Richards could be anywhere from Mad Jim Jaspers level all the way to classic beyonder. Arguing exactly what is going to be a full potential Franklin is a moot point as of this moment simply because he's already shown at his current age he can tangle with celestials, what is too come is all speculation and his powers could in fact exponentially increase... so like I said full potential for Franklin could be where he is right now all the way to Classic Beyonder... there really is no saying at this point.
Agreed. It's fun to speculate though. 😄
Originally posted by Uriel005
personally I've said this a while back but it seems to me Franklin's been growing more and more powerful in terms of his estimated future potential due to power creep. I believe he will be sidelined if he ever attains full power whether on his own conscious decision as a "good guy" knowing it's too much power/cosmic event revolving entirely around circumstances nullifying him as a universal power whether by power removal or cosmic law getting put into effect preventing him from interfering. With his recent showings I can say a future potential Franklin Richards could be anywhere from Mad Jim Jaspers level all the way to classic beyonder. Arguing exactly what is going to be a full potential Franklin is a moot point as of this moment simply because he's already shown at his current age he can tangle with celestials, what is too come is all speculation and his powers could in fact exponentially increase... so like I said full potential for Franklin could be where he is right now all the way to Classic Beyonder... there really is no saying at this point.
Agreed. Although I think young FR may already be above Jasper's power level. Jaspers was once transported to a void outside of reality and was unable to use his abilities as a result, thus being rendered helpless. The Fury subsequently "fried" his brain. So although extremely powerful, Jaspers has shown limitations. Were Franklin put in the same situation, we don't know for sure what the outcome would be. And it's also important to point out that, unlike Jaspers, Franklin has additional powers aside from reality warping and molecular manipulation; he has vast psionic powers (telepathy, telekinesis, energy blasts of concussive force, astral projection and precognition) as well. His psionic abilities are so dangerous that his own father, Reed Richards, put him into a coma to prevent him from destroying all life on Earth after Annihilus used a machine to prematurely release the child's full potential (in terms of power, not intellectual comprehension).
And yes, it's all speculation at this point.
Originally posted by Doon
Yes, I saw your previous posts on the subject. To me, Psi-lord and Avatar are practically different characters even though they are both older versions of Franklin Richards.Here are my thoughts on Avatar:
In FF #245, Franklin accidentally used his reality altering/molecular manipulation powers to age himself into adulthood. This particular adult version of FR was extremely powerful in my opinion; he was rather godlike in that he could do virtually anything he set his mind to. It's important to point out, though, that John Byrne, the author of FF #245, never referred to this "grown up" Franklin as Avatar. Another writer took it upon himself to apply the name 'Avatar' much later.
My thoughts on Psi-Lord:
As stated previously, this version of FR has a convoluted background; and I blame Tom DeFalco for that entirely. DeFalco essentially wanted to transform Franklin into a teenage version of Cable. He sent the character into the far-flung future, where he was subsequently raised to a be a gun-toting, time-traveling warrior (like Cable). Similar to Cable's techno-organic virus, which was/is used to dampen the character's power level, Psi-Lord was given "psycho-armor" -- a special suit bonded to Franklin's physical structure, that siphoned off the full extent of his abilities, limiting them to telekinesis and telepathy (like Cable). And fyi, this version of Franklin never died. Rather, someone (Psi-Lord himself?) went back in time to the moment where young Franklin was initially kidnapped by Nathaniel and returned the child to his parents before he could be raised in the future to become Psi-Lord. Thankfully, this version of the character is obsolete in the 616 time continuum now. He never existed -- even though we know he did.
Now, there is also a parallel version of an adult Franklin from Rachel Summers' universe (who may or may not be as powerful as our Franklin from Earth 616); he appears in the classic Days of Future Past storyline. This is the particular version you make mention of who 'died in the future'. Keep in mind, though, that he brought himself back to life by sheer force of will and was powerful enough in 'death' to cross over to the 616 universe in Days of Future Present.
And yes, a Celestial did bring young Franklin back to life in the Heroes Reborn: The Return limited series, but I like to think the character was merely sleeping. Indeed, with proper training in the use of his powers, in my opinion, Franklin would have been able to resurrect himself without the aid of any Celestial. That point is mute though since FR was clearly untrained back then and is still a novice to some degree even now (although it's nice to see that someone is finally tutoring him in the use of those abilities).
To be honest, I personally find it difficult to fathom how such powerful characters go about fighting among themselves anyway. Reality warping (especially up to a cosmic scale, as exemplified by Franklin) essentially means you basically have the power to do whatever you want. Want to grow up instantaneously? Done. Want to make Mephisto disappear in a flash of light? Done. Want to undo Asgardian magic and save Ben Grimm from the brink of death (after he was fatally wounded by Thor)? Done. Want to create your own bloody universe??? Done. It's pretty staggering. And Celestials obviously are able to achieve much of the same thing in terms of sheer power, so how does one outdo the other? To make matters even more confusing, guys like Jim Starlin craft elaborate stories where noobs like Thanos acquire some "weapon" of sorts that turns them into overnight king of the omniverse. I'll still never understand how Thanos managed to defeat The Living Tribunal. I get that he had a very powerful weapon in the form of the "heart of the universe", but I don't think that should be enough to take down a character as obviously powerful as the LT. Hmm..
That was a long post. Yikes!
hope u stay on kmc good post 🙂
my point on the heart on the infinite is why would god need a pawn to fix a flaw whereas living tribunal his rightful servant couldn't
but its no different than any writer telling his story
in heroes reborn, ashema achieved what tiamut did in the previous eternals series having a heart and it was franklin who helped
to those who don't realize a celestial or celestials power ask urself who created the mutants..why are they so powerful...answer is right there
have a blessed one
