Originally posted by Galan007
Essentially, his stance is that Frank being afraid of Abraxas, and not acting directly against him, equates to Abraxas being uber-as-hell by default... An abc logic that I cannot wrap my head around.
Originally posted by Galan007Abraxas seemed pretty uber separate and apart from Franklin being terrified of him. Also, I may not be recalling it correctly, but I was under the impression that Franklin wasn't aware of his powers during that storyline until the very end. Didn't Valeria/Roma have to unlock/guide him?
^ Zop LOVES Frank being that powerful.Essentially, his stance is that Frank being afraid of Abraxas, and not acting directly against him, equates to Abraxas being uber-as-hell by default... An abc logic that I cannot wrap my head around.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Abraxas was powerful. I just think he gets overly wanked by some... More than what's due, at least.
Abraxas seemed pretty uber separate and apart from Franklin being terrified of him.
...And Frank being afraid of him has nothing to do with why I think he was powerful. Nada/zilch/zero.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I don't remember if Frank was unaware of his powers. I just remember that he only used his powers once--to resurrect Galactus--an act which completely burned him out.
Also, I may not be recalling it correctly, but I was under the impression that Franklin wasn't aware of his powers during that storyline until the very end. Didn't Valeria/Roma have to unlock/guide him?
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Zop LOVES Frank being that powerful.
naughty
Essentially, his stance is that Frank being afraid of Abraxas, and not acting directly against him, equates to Abraxas being uber-as-hell by default... An abc logic that I cannot wrap my head around.
They were prepped by Roma and the power to do this :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/tended.jpg/
Yet they never dared direct that power toward Abraxas. Just as all of Roma's arsenal : her Citadel "with enough firepower to lay waste entire dimensions" or her Celestial Nullifier were useless vs Abraxas (or she would have used them). Hell Roma herself is pretty powerful. She held her own for a while against a CCU wielder, that was pancaking realities on top of each other, until he gained the upper hand and beat her. Yet she went down like a cheap whore vs Abraxas.
Originally posted by zopzopI disagree.
Just as all of Roma's arsenal : her Citadel "with enough firepower to lay waste entire dimensions" or her Celestial Nullifier were useless vs Abraxas (or she would have used them).
The CN cannot create, it can only nullify/destroy. That said, if Roma would have used it, she wouldn't have been able to undo the damage Abraxas caused without permanently destroying the universes involved. Why would Roma, the chick who tends to Eternity, want to destroy most/all of her boss if she didn't have to? That's why the UN was optimal: it could both destroy AND recreate/realign the multiverse. Big difference.
Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree.The CN cannot create, it can only nullify/destroy. That said, if Roma would have used it, she wouldn't have been able to undo the damage Abraxas caused without permanently destroying the universes involved. Why would Roma, the chick who tends to Eternity, want to destroy most/all of her boss if she didn't have to? That's why the UN was optimal: it could both destroy AND recreate/realign the multiverse. Big difference.
She didn't even attempt to use it to kill Abraxas before his evil spread beyond the first few universes. She was helpless and stated nothing less than the UN could end him.
Originally posted by zopzopTHAT'S BECAUSE THE CN CAN ONLY DESTROY. IT CANNOT CREATE.
She didn't even attempt to use it to kill Abraxas before his evil spread beyond the first few universes. She was helpless and stated nothing less than the UN could end him.
Not trying to be a prick, but I just explained this. Roma tends to Eternity. Why would she willingly perma-kill him with the CN (which she is certainly capable of) if another weapon existed that was capable of both destroying Abraxas, AND fixing the damage he caused via destroying (and more importantly: recreating/realigning) the multiverse?
The UN was simply the best tool for the job in that situation.
Originally posted by Galan007
THAT'S BECAUSE THE CN CAN ONLY DESTROY. IT CANNOT CREATE.Not trying to be a prick, but I just explained this. Roma tends to Eternity. Why would she willingly perma-kill him with the CN (which she is certainly capable of) if another weapon existed that was capable of both destroying Abraxas, AND fixing the damage he caused via destroying (and more importantly: recreating/realigning) the multiverse?
The UN was simply the best tool for the job in that situation.
Exactly! They've used it to nullify multiversal threats before (see Jim Jaspers of Earth 238). She could have used it to eradicate Abraxas when he first showed his face but she knew it wouldn't do anything against him and hence they needed the UN.
Hell her Citadel could "lay waste to entire dimensions" and is supposedly so well guarded but she didn't use any of it's weapons against Abraxas when he stormed it.
Roma herself held her own for a while vs someone wielding a CCU (the same CCU that was placing layer upon layer of universes upon each other and causing OMNIVERSAL chaos), but look how she fared vs Abraxas.
Originally posted by zopzopCrikey, you're just not understanding me.
Exactly! They've used it to nullify multiversal threats before (see Jim Jaspers of Earth 238). She could have used it to eradicate Abraxas when he first showed his face but she knew it wouldn't do anything against him and hence they needed the UN.Hell her Citadel could "lay waste to entire dimensions" and is supposedly so well guarded but she didn't use any of it's weapons against Abraxas when he stormed it.
Roma herself held her own for a while vs someone wielding a CCU (the same CCU that was placing layer upon layer of universes upon each other and causing OMNIVERSAL chaos), but look how she fared vs Abraxas.
The CN is identical to the UN in that they both nullify/erase/destroy their target. However they're also vastly different in a few ways:
a.) the CN can only destroy, it cannot create. The UN can do both.
b.) the CN can only target whole universes at a time--it cannot target individual galaxies, or solar systems, or planets, or creatures within said universe. The UN can.
So once again: Roma, the "Celestial Guardian", the woman who "tends to Eternity", is NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF DESTROYING UNIVERSES to beat an opponent--especially when she knows of another item (the UN) which has the power to destroy Abraxas, and fix the damage he caused, without permanently destroying so much as a single planet in the process. That said, if Roma would have opted to use the CN--even when she first realized Abraxas was free--she would have had to permanently destroy at least one whole universe to kill him (that's how the CN works.) But Again: destroying universes is not what she does. In fact, it's the exact opposite of what she does.
Aside from all of that, Roma knew throughout the entire arc that the UN would ultimately be used to "win the day" (ie. defeat Abraxas):
Plot aside, she had no reason to use the CN. No reason at all.
Originally posted by Galan007
Crikey, you're just not understanding me.The CN is identical to the UN in that they both nullify/erase/destroy their target. However they're also vastly different in a few ways:
a.) the CN can only destroy, it cannot create. The UN can do both.
b.) the CN can only target whole universes at a time--it cannot target individual galaxies, or solar systems, or planets, or creatures within said universe. The UN can.So once again: Roma, the "Celestial Guardian", the woman who "tends to Eternity", is NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF DESTROYING UNIVERSES to beat an opponent--especially when she knows of another item (the UN) which has the power to destroy Abraxas, and fix the damage he caused, without permanently destroying so much as a single planet in the process. That said, if Roma would have opted to use the CN--even when she first realized Abraxas was free--she would have had to permanently destroy at least one whole universe to kill him (assuming he hadn't tainted any other dimensions.) But Again: destroying universes is not what she does.. In fact, it's the exact opposite of what she does.
Aside from all of that, Roma knew throughout the entire arc that the UN would ultimately be used to "win the day" (ie. defeat Abraxas):
Plot aside, she had no reason to use the CN. No reason at all.
I understand what you are saying. But I'm merely pointing out they HAVE used the CN to annihilate an entire universe as long as they killed the guy they are after, example Jim Jaspers 238.
She could have used the CN at anytime to nullify whatever reality Abraxas was currently in but she chose not to. Obviously nullifying the reality he was in wouldn't have destroyed Abraxas or otherwise she would have risked using it to stop him cold.
She even called the UN a weapon of "unimaginable power" and said that was what would be needed to save the day. Obviously nothing in her very respectable arsenal would do the job.
Originally posted by zopzopLord Mandragon ordered the destruction of universe 238. Roma had nothing to do with that. Nothing.
I understand what you are saying. But I'm merely pointing out they HAVE used the CN to annihilate an entire universe as long as they killed the guy they are after, example Jim Jaspers 238.
Originally posted by zopzopAgain: Roma= "she who tends to Eternity", "the Celestial Guardian", "the Guardian of the Multiverse." Her purpose is to protect Eternity, NOT to destroy him. She knew all along that the UN would be used to "win the day"--she had no reason to perma-kill entire universes just for the lulz.
She could have used the CN at anytime to nullify whatever reality Abraxas was currently in but she chose not to.
Originally posted by zopzopNo. When you're talking about nullification you must remember that nullification is nullification--the same thing happens to anything within that 'nullification sphere'. With that being said, the only reason the UN was used in such a vast scope was to fix all the damage Abraxas had caused. Reed explicitly tells us this:
Obviously nullifying the reality he was in wouldn't have destroyed Abraxas or otherwise she would have risked using it to stop him cold.
Point: Abraxas alone could have been singularly targeted, and subsequently erased from existence (nullification is nullification.) However, just erasing Abraxas would not have fixed the damage he caused to the realities--hence Reed's statement above.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, Franklin's mental barriers/self-imposed limitations were non-existent in that battle. Point being: that isn't his standard level of power. Far from, in fact....It's like using Hulk from the Onslaught saga (the one Jean mind wiped near the end) and trying to call that his 'regular' level. Doesn't work. All it does is show us what they are capable of when let loose by external factors--which has nothing to do with the debate at hand.
Actually that is his standard level of power. Technically it's the self-imposed mental barriers which serve as an external factor -- not the other way around. Furthermore, those barriers (the ones created in Byrne's classic FF #245) are no longer in place; they were broken in a confrontation with a character named Occulus several years back. (Franklin's powers were later exhausted again subsequent to the aforementioned altercation with Abraxas, but the mental blocks NEVER came back into play.) Even more interestingly, recent developments in Hickman's FF run show that Franklin had been subconsciously choosing not to use his abilities since the Abraxas incident. His adult counterpart simply reminded him of what he is currently capable of, thus 'reawakening" his abilities in a manner of speaking. Make no mistake, Franklin's abilities are currently active in full. That's why he's able to create small universes with such ease. Aside from that, the creator of this thread clearly specified FULL POTENTIAL Franklin Richards. People who still think Franklin has "mental dampers" clearly haven't been reading Fantastic Four in quite some time.
Originally posted by DoonIs that why Frank, very recently, had no idea that HE was warping the Celestial's blast?:
Make no mistake, Franklin's abilities are currently active in full.
Is that why Frank, very recently, had no idea that HE was warping the Celestial itself?:
"And why are they growing out of your head?"
Listen, I'm not saying that Franklin isn't currently at full power. He obviously is. What I'm saying is that, up to this point, he is still just a boy who is hugely unaware of what he can really do. Most of what he does do on the high end occurs as a subconscious side effect (see the above scans.)
Originally posted by DoonHe does have the mental dampers any young boy, who isn't overly accustomed with his abilities, would have. That much is blatantly clear.
People who still think Franklin has "mental dampers" clearly haven't been reading Fantastic Four in quite some time.
