Celestials or LT vs full potential franklin richards

Originally posted by Galan007
Is that why Frank, very recently, had no idea that HE was warping the Celestial's blast?:

"Why would you shoot flowers at me?"

Is that why Frank, very recently, had no idea that HE was warping the Celestial itself?:

"And why are they growing out of your head?"

Listen, I'm not saying that Franklin isn't currently at full power. He obviously is. What I'm saying is that, up to this point, he is still just a boy who is completely unaware of what he can really do. Most of what he does do on the high end occurs as a subconscious side effect (see the above scans.)

He does have the mental dampers any young boy would have. That much is blatantly clear.

Umm.......... Franklin was clearly being flippant with the aforementioned comment. He undoubedtly knew he was warping the Celestial! That's crystal clear.

As for mental dampers, if that's how you're choosing to define them, fair enough. Just be aware that the "dampers" have a very specific meaning in the character's history, as that word was used mainly to describe the barriers he created for himself subsequent to accidentally transforming himself into an adult (back in FF# 245).

And yes, I agree that he's a boy who is only now learning to master his powers (thanks to Hickman, in fact), but, again, the thread clearly states "full potential Franklin Richards". What that means is this. When Franklin grows up (if he ever does) and reaches the extent of his evolutionary process, will he be able to defeat LT and/or the Celestials? In my opinion, he would not be able to conquer the Living Tribunal, who is essentially one notch down from The One Above All himself. However, I can definitely see a fully evolved Franklin take down a few celestials. I think it's within him, at some point, to do so.

Be back later..

Originally posted by Doon
Umm.......... Franklin was clearly being flippant with the aforementioned comment. He undoubedtly knew he was warping the Celestial! That's crystal clear.

Originally posted by Doon
As for mental dampers, if that's how you're choosing to define them, fair enough.

And yes, I agree that he's a boy who is only now learning to master his powers (thanks to Hickman, in fact),

Originally posted by Doon
but, again, the thread clearly states "full potential Franklin Richards".

^ I interpreted the recent mad Celestials scene to be Franklin taking the piss.

I think it's fair to point out that Franklin's been actively training with the mysterious blank man to make a more stable, orderly universe. He was consciously fighting the Annihilation Wave forces with his powers. He consciously healed Ben and dispelled the Angrir persona. He's a kid and he doesn't spend time thinking about how powerful he is. But I think he understands on a basic level, just how powerful he is.

I don't understand though how he was screwing around with his own universe with Leech conscious right next to him in Fantastic Four #600.

Originally posted by Galan007
No. To the contrary, it was made crystal clear that Franklin had NO clue what was going on initially--as was evident by him wondering why the f*ck flowers were manifesting all over the place (see the scans I posted earlier.)

I disagree. He was messing with Celestial. Galan, Frank's been in training lately. Read OneDumbGO's post for more on that.

As for the scans, no worries -- I've got the book. 🙂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I interpreted the recent mad Celestials scene to be Franklin taking the piss.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But I think he understands on a basic level, just how powerful he is.

If he's ever going to reach "full potential", he needs to understand how his reality manipulation powers work on more than a basic level.

Originally posted by Doon
I disagree. He was messing with Celestial.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't understand though how he was screwing around with his own universe with Leech conscious right next to him in Fantastic Four #600.

Leech has been learning to control his powers in the book as well.

^ Oh. Guess that explains that.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't know wtf this means, tbh. mmm

Originally posted by Galan007

Originally posted by Galan007
If he's ever going to reach "full potential", he needs to understand how his reality manipulation powers work on more than a basic level.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Oh. Guess that explains that. Franklin was making fun of the Celestials and pretending to be clueless.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I question the need for a more "full potential" Franklin when he does this without any particular effort:

Anyway, Frank still thinks like a boy most of the time. When he starts thinking like God, he'll be at full potential.

...It's all about his mental adeptivity (is that a word?) imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't know wtf this means, tbh. mmm

If he's ever going to reach "full potential", he needs to understand how his reality manipulation powers work on more than a basic level.

I didn't get that impression at all.

Taking the piss = to appear serious, but actually meaning the opposite. In essence, Franklin was sort of mocking the Celestials.

Like this..

"Umm.. I just turned your silly blast into flowers. And umm.. notice how they're coming out of your head now."

That's obviously not what he said, but it's what he meant basically. Like ODG said, he's been training quite a bit of late. That's never been done before in a FF book. Kudos to Hickman for that. Most writers shy away from Franklin's abilities because he's too powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lord Mandragon ordered the destruction of universe 238. Roma had nothing to do with that. Nothing.

Again: Roma= "she who tends to Eternity", "the Celestial Guardian", "the Guardian of the Multiverse." Her purpose is to protect Eternity, NOT to destroy him. She knew all along that the UN would be used to "win the day"--she had no reason to perma-kill entire universes just for the lulz.

No. When you're talking about nullification you must remember that nullification is nullification--the same thing happens to anything within that 'nullification sphere'. With that being said, the only reason the UN was used in such a vast scope was to fix all the damage Abraxas had caused. Reed explicitly tells us this:

"In order to [b]realign all that is, we needed to end all that was."

Point: Abraxas alone could have been singularly targeted, and subsequently erased from existence (nullification is nullification.) However, just erasing Abraxas would not have fixed the damage he caused to the realities--hence Reed's statement above. [/B]

I'm aware of that scan, I have the entire arc. My point was she could have (assuming it would even work) ended the threat of Abraxas as soon as he ravaged his first universe. But NOTHING in her arsenal would do.

The fact that nothing in her considerable arsenal AND her own respectable power (holding her own for a while vs a CCU wielder experienced enough to use that thing to compress realities on top of each other) was able to stop Abraxas speaks volumes.

Originally posted by zopzop
I'm aware of that scan, I have the entire arc. My point was she could have (assuming it would even work) ended the threat of Abraxas as soon as he ravaged his first universe. But NOTHING in her arsenal would do.

The fact that nothing in her considerable arsenal AND her own respectable power (holding her own for a while vs a CCU wielder experienced enough to use that thing to compress realities on top of each other) was able to stop Abraxas speaks volumes.

That, again, is why the UN was optimal: it could nullify/destroy Abraxas, nullify/destroy the multiverse, AND recreate/realign it. That's why Roma knew well beforehand that it would be used to "win the day."

Originally posted by Doon
"Umm.. I just turned your silly blast into flowers. And umm.. notice how they're coming out of your head now."

That's obviously not what he said, but it's what he meant basically.

(taken from the panels I posted earlier.)

Franklin looks genuinely confused to me. /shrug

^ I get that.

I'm also considering that during the lead-up to his confrontation with the mad Celestials, Franklin reminds Leech that it's what he's been training for and that Franklin is the least fearful going into the fight. That even after the fight's started and sh1ts going ballistic, Franklin confidently walks up to the mad Celestials. And that after they confuse him in that void, he dismantles the fingers holding the portal open with the clearly snide comment, "See. Suck it, space gods."

Strikes me as someone who knows how powerful he is (particularly since he's been working at it).

^ Right, but in that one instance Franklin didn't seem cocky/confident, and he didn't make any blatantly snide comments. If you look at both the narration and his depicted expressions, he seems confused.

^ The comment sounds pretty snide to me when I think about it. And I get what you're saying. Not trying to change your mind. I just think between the two extremes of "dumbfoundedly clueless kid" and "confidently adept youth," Franklin is much closer to the latter. Which is why I brought up my opinion of what was going on.

^ It can be viewed at both ways, I suppose. It doesn't matter in the end, though--the feat is quite impressive any way you choose to look at it.

Originally posted by Doon
Actually that is his standard level of power. Technically it's the self-imposed mental barriers which serve as an external factor -- not the other way around. Furthermore, those barriers (the ones created in Byrne's classic FF #245) are no longer in place; they were broken in a confrontation with a character named Occulus several years back. (Franklin's powers were later exhausted again subsequent to the aforementioned altercation with Abraxas, but the mental blocks NEVER came back into play.) Even more interestingly, recent developments in Hickman's FF run show that Franklin had been subconsciously choosing not to use his abilities since the Abraxas incident. His adult counterpart simply reminded him of what he is currently capable of, thus 'reawakening" his abilities in a manner of speaking. Make no mistake, Franklin's abilities are currently active in full. That's why he's able to create small universes with such ease. Aside from that, the creator of this thread clearly specified FULL POTENTIAL Franklin Richards. People who still think Franklin has "mental dampers" clearly haven't been reading Fantastic Four in quite some time.

Originally posted by Galan007

Frank certainly did not know of Galactus' special connection to the UN,
which allowed him to recall it from Abraxas. No way.

Roma ... who had prepped for this day since Valeria's birth.

... meh ... it's on panel but not in the mood to search for scans.

The whole point of Roma training Valeria and tending to her,
was for this day, so she could raise Galactus with Fraklin,
so that the UN could be retrieved.

The ONLY thing able to stop Abraxas in Marvel. (I'm sure something of equal power)

"Ultimate Nullifier, a weapon powerful enough to destroy Abraxas"

--------------------

Sounds familiar?

"Realizing the danger Abraxas posed,
the FF went on a Dimension-hopping journey to recover the UN,
the One weapon that could destroy him"

......................................................................................

Indeed, Roma (Omniversal Guardian) stated the same thing On Panel:

Roma: "It will be a weapon of unimaginable power that will WIN This day"

......................................................................................

Here Galactus says it, and Reed realizes this truth:

Galactus: "But This Time, This Day can end ONLY one way"

Reed: "Yes .... God help me, I can see that now"

Originally posted by zopzop

They were also trained for this day by Roma
(she knew it would come).

Originally posted by Galan007

So once again: Roma, the "Celestial Guardian", the woman who "tends to Eternity",
is NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF DESTROYING
UNIVERSES to beat an opponent--

How was that gonna get fixed?

In fact,
crazy Jamie related to Brian through a dream a near-future vision
of Roma actually using the CN on 616 cause Wanda didn't stop.

This is why he destroyed the CN with a huge boulder to give them time.

Saturnyne threatened to use the Celestial Nullifier on 616
if the FF didn't keep Franklin in check.

Now, that's 616.

So,
it is quite clear that while it is not Roma and/or Saturnyne's desire,
they will take out any part of Eternity they have to,
to beat an opponent.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea Zop is wrong about Franklin, but his point is true concerning another.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Roma threatened to use the Celestial Nullifier on Wanda & 616 during the HOM drama,
and Wanda had already blown countless Universes to shreds via her Chaos Wave.

Regardless, threatening to use something is certainly not the same as actually using it. Either way, my only point was that the CN COULD have destroyed Abraxas (nullification is nullification.) However, there was no reason for Roma to permanently destroy any universes when the UN (which possessed the power to destroy AND recreate/realign the multiverse) was available... And since Roma knew the UN would be used to "win the day" from the beginning, the CN simply was never needed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
In fact,
crazy Jamie related to Brian through a dream a near-future vision
of Roma actually using the CN on 616 cause Wanda didn't stop.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Saturnyne threatened to use the Celestial Nullifier on 616
if the FF didn't keep Franklin in check.