Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you know this, stop trying to pipe up with little tidbits.-AC
i could say the same to you. i'm not ignorant of epiiibites' beliefs, but i don't ****ing care about them, and it gets annoying when a simple phrase of his derails an entire thread because you can't let him go on thinking whatever he wants.
Originally posted by manorastroman
i could say the same to you. i'm not ignorant of epiiibites' beliefs, but i don't ****ing care about them, and it gets annoying when a simple phrase of his derails an entire thread because you can't let him go on thinking whatever he wants.
I'm not ignorant of his beliefs either, he has EVERY right on Earth to like what he likes. I would defend his right or anybody else's right to that. He does need to accept that he is wrong, though. In terms of "It's truth she makes good music.". It's not. It's opinion.
The problem is, we're trying to debate and it's flawed from the start, why? Because he is debating from a factually incorrect stance.
-AC
Originally posted by EPIIIBITESMaybe you should consider the possibility that you might not be open-minded enough to determine what's good in modern day pop music
i'd say my last update of myspace music section disagrees with you and that i've heard enough good music and enough bad music to know the difference.
22-20's, 80's matchbox b line disaster, aberfeldy, alanis morrissette, alice in chains, ambulance ltd, amos lee, andreas johnston, anthony and the johnstons, ari hest, athlete, augustana, basement jaxx, bayside, ben folds, ben harper, ben lee, bernard fanning, beth orton, bethany dillon, biffy clyro, bishop allen, black rebel motorcycle club, bloc party, blue nile, blue oyster cult, bob dylan, bob marley, bobby womack, bonnie sommerville, brendon benson, british sea power, BT, buzzcocks, cadence weapon, caitlin cary, cardinals, cary brothers, cary pierce, chicane, clap your hands say yeah,CSS, colin hay, corrine bailley rae, counting crows, daft punk, daisy chapman, damien rice, dashboard confessional, daughter darling, dave matthews band, david gray, david kitt, david mead, deanna varagona, death cab for cutie, devendra banhart, dire straits, donovan frankenreiter, doves, eels, elliott smith, elton john, envy corps, erik mongrain, eshbjorn svensson trio, eva cassidy, faith no more, five for fighting, frou frou, G.love and special sauce, gavin degraw, george thorogood, gnarles barkley,gogol bordello, golden smog, goo goo dolls, guns n roses, halflight, hard fi, haven, hootie and the blow fish,hundred reasons, idlewild, incubus, inward eye, inxs, iron and wine, izzy stradlin, jack johnson, jackson brown, james brown, jeff buckley, jefferson airplane, jesse malin, jet, jewel, jimi hendrix, john butler trio, john cougar mellencamp, john mayer, john williams, jonathan jordan, joni mitchell, jordis unga, jose gonzalez, josh groban, josh ritter, josh rouse, joy division, justin nozuka, kaiser chiefs, kathleen edwards, KD lang, keane, kings of leon, leftfield, leona naess, Lionel Neykov, lionel ritchie, live, lowgold, madeliene peyroux, magneta lane, manic street preachers, mark cohn, martha and the muffins, marvin gaye, massive attack, matchbox 20, maximo park, metallica, michael jackson, midlake, minus the bear, minuteman, mr bungle, mofro, mogwai, morning runner, my vitriol, mystery jets , neil young, NERD, new order, new radicals, nine black alps, NIN, norah jones, oasis, of montreal, old crow medicine show, orson, otis reading, over the rhine, paolo nutini, patrick park, pete yorn, powderfinger, punchline, queen, REM, radiohead, ray lamontagne, razorlight, red hot chili peppers. remy zero, robert randolph, rocco deluca, rufus wainwright, ryan adams, sarah mclaughlan, scissor sisters, Scott Matthews, seal, semisonic, sigur ros, simon and garfunkell, sly and the family stone, snow patrol, stellastar, stephen fretwell, stephen kellogg, stereophonics, stevie wonder, stone temple pilots, sufjan stevens, the animals, the aurora, the beautiful girls, the bees, the blueskins, the bravery, the coral, the corrs, the cranberries, the datsuns, the decemberists, the delays, the faint, the feeling, the futureheads, the gossip, the go! team, the hives, the killers, the kooks, the leaves, the libertines, the little willies, the lovely feathers, the meligrove band, the mighty bosstones, the pattern, the postal service, the raconteurs, the rakes, the rolling stones, the rumble strips, the shins , the split canvas, the stands, the streets, the strokes, the subways, the sundays, the thrills, the unknown, the vines, the waifs, the walkabouts, the white stripes. the who, the zutons, this world fair, tim buckley, tom mcrae, trace bundy, tracy chapman, train, travis, turin brakes, tyler bates, U2, ugly kid joe, unkle, vanessa carlton, velvet revolver, vertical horizon, vonda shepard, whiskeytown, white rose movement, wilco, willard grant conspiracy, willie nelson, wintersleep, wolfmother, xavier rudd, yeah yeah yeahs, zero seven
(and the Streets or Basement Jaxx isn't the sort of pop music we've been talking about).
why not?...you want to discuss good pop music...and once again...you wouldn't have lily allen if it wasn't for mike skinner's popularity...so to not discuss him would be silly
...and of course MJ and Elton John are good. That's a no-brainer.
i'm glad we agree on something...
INTENSE FLASHBACK to the impasse of the original subjectivity debates. since this thread is apparently going nowhere (being initially flawed and all 313 ) i'd like to mention that things came to a halt when you couldn't understand the difference between liking/disliking something and thinking it's good/crap...which i still don't get. elucidate, please.
Originally posted by manorastroman
INTENSE FLASHBACK to the impasse of the original subjectivity debates. since this thread is apparently going nowhere (being initially flawed and all 313 ) i'd like to mention that things came to a halt when you couldn't understand the difference between liking/disliking something and thinking it's good/crap...which i still don't get. elucidate, please.
It's illogical to assume any logic contained in "I think this is crap, but I like it.". You obviously don't think it's crap if you like it, you just think you have to believe that.
Nobody seeks out music they think is crap, nobody likes music they think is crap. People just feel guilty, which is why there should be no guilty pleasures. Like what you like and don't be ashamed.
There's no factual good or bad in taste, if you do not understand that, then leave the debate.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri😆 Being Canadian has nothing to do with it, however, there are benefits to supporting Canadian music and local acts. You, however, are taking this way too serious.
What bs is that? You don't HAVE to give love to her because she's Canadian.You have to like her because she was born in the same country? Ridiculous.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's illogical to assume any logic contained in "I think this is crap, but I like it.". You obviously don't think it's crap if you like it, you just think you have to believe that.Nobody seeks out music they think is crap, nobody likes music they think is crap. People just feel guilty, which is why there should be no guilty pleasures. Like what you like and don't be ashamed.
There's no factual good or bad in taste, if you do not understand that, then leave the debate.
-AC
i think that first "obviously" is the trouble. and please, don't conceit to know everybody's psychology. are you in the least qualified to make statements like "nobody seeks out music they think is crap, nobody likes music they think is crap, you obviously don't think it's crap if you like it"?
and if i did understand that on your terms, there would BE no debate. i realize there's no factual crap, but i think you understand that something can be in the direction of fact. they're called gray areas.
Originally posted by Nellinator
You, however, are taking this way too serious.
it's kind of his trademark.
Originally posted by manorastroman
i think that first "obviously" is the trouble. and please, don't conceit to know everybody's psychology. are you in the least qualified to make statements like "nobody seeks out music they think is crap, nobody likes music they think is crap, you obviously don't think it's crap if you like it"?and if i did understand that on your terms, there would BE no debate. i realize there's no factual crap, but i think you understand that something can be in the direction of fact. they're called gray areas.
Eg: It's as close to a fact as possible without being one that Jimi Hendrix is better than Britney Spears, but it's not ACTUALLY a fact. As much as we'd all love it to be, it's not.
Secondly, people may very well seek out crap music, intentionally, you're right. The point is, logically, you cannot like something that you so vehemently dislike. It makes zero sense. You cannot sit there saying "This music is CRAP, total crap, but I do like it.". It makes no sense.
What is probably meant, is "I know this music isn't of the highest credibility, but I enjoy it.". If that's the case, say it. Don't be ashamed, you've already made the leap to liking the stuff. The only reason people say "This is crap!" is some kind of subconscious attempt at atoning, and yes, I'm making that judgement call.
-AC
Originally posted by jaden101
why not?...you want to discuss good pop music...
I'm talking about the audience you're likely to get at a Nelly Furtado, Justin Timberlake, or Destiny's Child concert, as opposed to a Streets concert.
The Streets or Basement Jaxx are miles apart (and miles better) than most pop music.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Eg: It's as close to a fact as possible without being one that Jimi Hendrix is better than Britney Spears, but it's not ACTUALLY a fact. As much as we'd all love it to be, it's not.Secondly, people may very well seek out crap music, intentionally, you're right. The point is, logically, you cannot like something that you so vehemently dislike. It makes zero sense. You cannot sit there saying "This music is CRAP, total crap, but I do like it.". It makes no sense.
What is probably meant, is "I know this music isn't of the highest credibility, but I enjoy it.". If that's the case, say it. Don't be ashamed, you've already made the leap to liking the stuff. The only reason people say "This is crap!" is some kind of subconscious attempt at atoning, and yes, I'm making that judgement call.
-AC
you putting forth two very opposing methods. you're saying that one ought to be direct and unashamed, but saying "i know this music isn't of the highest credibility" is essentially a dressed up, indirect way of saying "this is crap".
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Truth is fact. A fact is an undeniable truth. You're being an idiot.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Eg: It's as close to a fact as possible without being one that Jimi Hendrix is better than Britney Spears, but it's not ACTUALLY a fact. As much as we'd all love it to be, it's not.What is probably meant, is "I know this music isn't of the highest credibility, but I enjoy it.". If that's the case, say it. Don't be ashamed, you've already made the leap to liking the stuff. The only reason people say "This is crap!" is some kind of subconscious attempt at atoning, and yes, I'm making that judgement call.
-AC
Personally, I regularly admit I like what I'd consider isn't the best of music...but I also admit I like what I think is total crap (and I still maintain you can make a statement like that).
And yeah, Jimi > Brittney is not a fact...but c'mooooon. 😄
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Because I don't think The Streets or Basement Jaxx are your typical pop artists. I was attempting at the beginning of the thread to explain it's about typical pop artists...not just artists who are on popular radio.I'm talking about the audience you're likely to get at a Nelly Furtado, Justin Timberlake, or Destiny's Child concert, as opposed to a Streets concert.
The Streets or Basement Jaxx are miles apart (and miles better) than most pop music.
So basically you want us to stop brushing aside pop music that we think is shit, just so we...didn't brush them aside? You asked why there's pop hate, we said there isn't, so you used hate-worthy artists as comparison. This seems to be nothing more than justification for YOU liking them, a big thread to make yourself feel better.
Originally posted by manorastroman
you putting forth two very opposing methods. you're saying that one ought to be direct and unashamed, but saying "i know this music isn't of the highest credibility" is essentially a dressed up, indirect way of saying "this is crap".
Of course it's not. I'm saying don't be ashamed of liking any music, why should you be? The only opinion that should matter to you is your own. Why be ashamed of liking Justin just because loads of people would say you're being stupid? It shouldn't matter to Epibites that I think he has shit taste cos he likes Lily Allen, Justin and Backstreet Boys, he likes them, so they're good to him. Nobody else's opinion should matter.
They are less credible in the musical community than say, a Rush whatever, but that doesn't mean he can't like them. THAT is why people often say "THIS IS CRAP! I KNOW IT'S CRAP!", because they want the people who WOULD diss, to say "Oh, well at least he knows...".
Why? Why not just like what you like? Yes, Backstreet Boys are less credible, but so what? He likes them.
Don't be ashamed, don't feel you have to justify yourself for liking less credible artists, but don't come out and act as if you think it's crap, cos you don't. It's just an attempt at covering tracks.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
This seems to be nothing more than justification for YOU liking them, a big thread to make yourself feel better.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Don't be ashamed, don't feel you have to justify yourself for liking less credible artists, but don't come out and act as if you think it's crap, cos you don't. It's just an attempt at covering tracks.-AC
...actually, please don't answer that. It seems you're just here to argue again and simply can't handle what I'm saying about good and bad music.
Forget it.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriNo, you are completely wrong. This is not close to being fact. Sorry but this falls in the realm of subjectivity.
Eg: It's as close to a fact as possible without being one that Jimi Hendrix is better than Britney Spears, but it's not ACTUALLY a fact. As much as we'd all love it to be, it's not.
That's right...it's not a fact that can be proven...but it's a truth that exists.
Jimi > Brittney is true. Whether you're able to see it or not through your own subjective means is irrelevant. Whether it can be proven is irrelevant. Whether you happen to like Brittney over Jimi is irrelevant.
Jimi > Brittney. It's just the truth. I've always said I can't make a statement like that about most music. But certain music is so bad, that it can safely be called crap. Brittney is crap.
Black Eyed Peas on the other hand make music that probably has the same audience as Brittney, but they're not crap. In fact, they have made some good music...and I happen to like it.