Why all the pop hate?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Even if it's shit?

Why does every debate have to be chock full of comedy and smilies? Yes, I'm here to debate, big whoop. Not sure where that "You take it too seriously." bs came from.

-AC

Originally posted by Nellinator
No, you are completely wrong. This is not close to being fact. Sorry but this falls in the realm of subjectivity.

Yes, that was my point, you idiot. As "obvious" as it is, it's still subjective.

Originally posted by Nellinator
It comes from the FACT that you spend less time actually debating music and more time caught in your alpha male mentality and attacking people's syntax. Also, if you are here to debate you will take into consideration jests and obvious hyperbole so as to be constructive. You do not = alpha male syndrome.

If you want to talk about being constructive, maybe you should be concentrating on the person debating from a point of view that has been proven factually wrong on a great number of occasions. This is a good topic to debate, but the fact that people can't accept when they are wrong is something that prevents constructive debate.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I went on record from the start of this thread to say that these are good artists with good songs. What in the world are you talking about?

...actually, please don't answer that. It seems you're just here to argue again and simply can't handle what I'm saying about good and bad music.

Forget it.

Stop saying that everyone can't handle it whenever you're being questioned. The fact is, you are wrong in the stance you hold. I've proven it and so have many others. Your inability to accept this is what prevents you from indulging in any progressive debate, because you always raise inherently incorrect points based on your already incorrect point of view.

Originally posted by manorastroman
i'm fairly sure "this is crap" in the non-exclamatory, non-angry sense is the same as "less credible".

It's not, and I have just explained in detail to you why it isn't.

It's not always about me looking too deep or being too serious. Did you ever think you might not be looking deep enough?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The fact is, you are wrong in the stance you hold. I've proven it and so have many others.

balls no, you didn't explain it in detail. you made a blanket assumption that it's the result of suppressed guilt...not exactly sound reasoning. my explanation fits much more neatly. most people don't feel like articulating themselves to that degree, because most people don't hang around with people who carry superiority complexes like a knapsack. they find it safe to simply say "i know it's crap" and assume their company will understand them, which i'm sure their company does.

Here it is...

All I ever said was...certain music is crap. I said...

a) It's hard to determine something like if The Beatles are better than The Rolling Stones. Although I have my own opinion, there's really not much I can solidly lay on the table to say..."The Beatles are better".

b) It's also hard to determine if "Dave Matthews Band" sucks, even though I hate them with a passion. I could however say that about an artist like Britney Spears. It's because her music is un-original, doesn't have any substance, it's not innovative, it doesn't have soul, it doesn't have any particularly good instrumentals or lyrics, it's plastic, it's over-produced, it's carefully marketed...it's crap for a number of reasons.

Originally posted by manorastroman
balls no, you didn't explain it in detail. you made a blanket assumption that it's the result of suppressed guilt...not exactly sound reasoning. my explanation fits much more neatly. most people don't feel like articulating themselves to that degree, because most people don't hang around with people who carry superiority complexes like a knapsack. they find it safe to simply say "i know it's crap" and assume their company will understand them, which i'm sure their company does.

I agree with this whole post.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I disagree. I'm not wrong. Nobody's proven anything. Live with it and stop trying to argue it.

You are wrong. There is factually no good or no bad taste. It is entirely opinion. I'm going to go bump the subjective music thread and we can continue this there, where you got decimated before.

Originally posted by manorastroman
balls no, you didn't explain it in detail. you made a blanket assumption that it's the result of suppressed guilt...not exactly sound reasoning.

Of course it's sound reasoning. It's based on the fact that these artists are guilty pleasures for a lot of people, and it's been said in this thread alone.

Originally posted by manorastroman
my explanation fits much more neatly. most people don't feel like articulating themselves to that degree, because most people don't hang around with people who carry superiority complexes like a knapsack.

You call it a superiority complex, I don't. I'm here defending the right to say "I like this music." regardless of what anybody thinks of you or your opinion. If Epibites said Justin Timberlake was amazing, or that his songs were good, I'd disagree, I might even make a little fun, but why on EARTH should that matter to him? He could do the same to me and I'd shrug it off because his opinion of my taste doesn't matter, as mine shouldn't of his.

Nobody should feel the need to say "This is crap.", if they like it.

Originally posted by manorastroman
they find it safe to simply say "i know it's crap" and assume their company will understand them, which i'm sure their company does.

So your whole argument isn't that I was wrong, it was that people say "This is crap!" as a way of cutting corners?

I didn't disagree, I was just going into detail to clear up any misconceptions about the term. I know what he means when he says "This is crap!", as he acknowledged my interpretation of it as correct.

Don't be mad because there are people out there who can be articulate and accurate without making a gigantic effort. It does come easy to some of us.

Shoo.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are wrong. There is factually no good or not bad taste. It is entirely opinion. I'm going to go bump the subjective music thread and we can continue this there, where you got decimated before.

Of course it's sound reasoning. It's based on the fact that these artists are guilty pleasures for a lot of people, and it's been said in this thread alone.

You call it a superiority complex, I don't. I'm here defending the right to say "I like this music." regardless of what anybody thinks of you or your opinion. If Epibites said Justin Timberlake was amazing, or that his songs were good, I'd disagree, I might even make a little fun, but why on EARTH should that matter to him? He could do the same to me and I'd shrug it off because his opinion of my taste doesn't matter, as mine shouldn't of his.

Nobody should feel the need to say "This is crap.", if they like it.

So your whole argument isn't that I was wrong, it was that people say "This is crap!" as a way of cutting corners?

I didn't disagree, I was just going into detail to clear up any misconceptions about the term. I know what he means when he says "This is crap!", as he acknowledged my interpretation of it as correct.

Shoo.

-AC

i love it when you talk dirty.

you say cut corners like it's a conscious decision--i don't believe it is. most people don't ****ing care, hence the "looking too deeply" comment.

Originally posted by manorastroman
you say cut corners like it's a conscious decision--i don't believe it is. most people don't ****ing care, hence the "looking too deeply" comment.

No, I say "cut corners" because that is exactly what it is. Saying "This is crap!" doesn't often mean they find the music to be shit, just that they recognise it isn't exactly the most credible, and yes, there is a difference between credibility and quality.

Most people don't care, but welcome to a discussion board, where we interact with each other and therefore an interpersonal understanding is required. If you "don't f*cking care", fine, but then don't b*tch when you get pulled up and corrected.

Don't want that? Be correct, be articulate.

Anyone else?

-AC

I think this got missed...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Here it is...

All I ever said was...certain music is crap. I said...

a) It's hard to determine something like if The Beatles are better than The Rolling Stones. Although I have my own opinion, there's really not much I can solidly lay on the table to say..."The Beatles are better".

b) It's also hard to determine if "Dave Matthews Band" sucks, even though I hate them with a passion. I could however say that about an artist like Britney Spears. It's because her music is un-original, doesn't have any substance, it's not innovative, it doesn't have soul, it doesn't have any particularly good instrumentals or lyrics, it's plastic, it's over-produced, it's carefully marketed...it's crap for a number of reasons.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are wrong. There is factually no good or no bad taste. It is entirely opinion. I'm going to go bump the subjective music thread and we can continue this there, where you got decimated before.

Yes, you just proved me right.

"It's crap for a number of reasons.", to you. TO YOU. To you, to me, to many people. It's also NOT crap for many reasons to many people.

You said Lily Allen was factually good because lots of people liked her, not only is that wrong, but you're only applying that to artists you like, and it doesn't work that way.

Lily Allen is carefully marketed, plastic and fake, but you like HER. Her music is better than Britney's to me, but I still don't like her music.

It's all subjective when it comes to taste. That's a fact.

-AC

Lily Allen is good becasue she makes creative and worthwhile music...which also happens to strike a chord with me.

Forget it. You're never gonna get where I'm coming from.

Drop it.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Lily Allen iss good becasue she makes creative and worthwhile music...which also happens to strike a chord with me.

Forget it. You're never gonna get where I'm coming from.

Drop it.

To YOU she makes creative and worthwhile music. To many, Britney does the same. You are the one who doesn't understand, so you accuse me and everyone who opposes you of not understanding. Worthwhile itself is subjective, nothing is objectively worthwhile to listen to, is it? Stop being silly.

Music taste is subjective, there is no objective good or bad.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Most people don't care, but welcome to a discussion board, where we interact with each other and therefore an interpersonal understanding is required.
-AC

the irony is delicious. i've come to quite admire your off-the-cuff debate style, the way you make up views for the sake of debate; it makes me wonder if you're ANYTHING like your board persona in person.

and i don't have a problem with being articulate. i was arguing for the people; you know, i am the people's champion.

Originally posted by manorastroman
the irony is delicious.

and i don't have a problem with being articulate. i was arguing for the people; you know, i am the people's champion.

It's easy to lead sheep.

-AC

You're WRONG!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To YOU she makes creative and worthwhile music. To many, Britney does the same. You are the one who doesn't understand, so you accuse me and everyone who opposes you of not understanding. Worthwhile itself is subjective, nothing is objectively worthwhile to listen to, is it? Stop being silly.

Music taste is subjective, there is no objective good or bad.

-AC

But looking at whether an artist who has made an album like "Alright, Still" is better and more creative than an artist who has made "Oops!...I Did It Again" comes down to determing factors and informed opinion.

You're just wrong. Drop it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Most people don't care, but welcome to a discussion board, where we interact with each other and therefore an interpersonal understanding is required.

-AC

i'm sorry, but this one is just too good.

Originally posted by manorastroman
i'm sorry, but this one is just too good.

Go on, then.

Or are you afraid you've looked before you've leapt and got it completely wrong? Or better yet, instead of yapping at my ankles like a puppy, why don't you apply yourself to the debate at hand? Do you agree with everything Epibites is saying? You clearly said you didn't before.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Wrong...simply liking something or not is what's subjective.

Looking at whether an artist who has made an album like "Alright, Still" is better and more creative than an artist who has made "Oops!... I Did It Again" is up to informed opinion.

You're wrong. Drop it.

Haha, no you're getting confused again.

OPINION, exactly. Informed or not, it is still an opinion, it is still, therefore, subjective.

To be objective is to be based on facts, truths. Lily Allen being ANYTHING that pertains to personal interpretation, is not objective. She is not good, creative or excellent by fact. It's your opinion.

-AC

I added "determining factors" in there.

If someone's opinion is informed becasue they have the ability to determine factors such as innovation, substance, etc... their opinion is worth more than someone who is just going off of taste.

It's still their OPINION. Do you not grasp that?

As long as it is an opinion, it is not fact. Fact is the opposite of opinion, objective is the opposite of subjective. It's still subjective and it's still opinion. Determining factors? Determining what? Exactly. Determining your OPINION.

o·pin·ion

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

You or anyone thinking Lily Allen is great in ANY way, or BAD in anyway, is pure opinion.

-AC