Objectivity in Music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But my point is, informed opinions have learned from experience that music that is missing those qualities doesn't last, doesn't stand the test of time, as seems to overwhelmingly get a negative reaction by the other people who have these informed opinions.

So if that's not a sign of music that's bad...then what is?

There isn't, outside of personal opinion.

When you discuss or talk about music, a concrete, factual, objective outlook isn't always needed. Especially in situations where it's nigh impossible to determine anything objective, either because of the relevant facts and evidence necessary for supporting that view are gone, non-existent, or not in big enough quantity (Like your debate, EPIIIBITES.), or because it's the personal opinion that is the important part (This debate.).

-AC

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Crap. I gotta have breakfast.

Later!

...pretty fun though

EDIT:

Originally posted by Eis
Funny how you don't realize how absurd you sound. Also what I said wasn't an "I agree/I disagree" comment. You are like Christians, whenever one questions their beliefs they hide behind "faith" which is really just Christian-talk for "irrational belief".

Was this brought up without provocation because someone thought we needed more ****ing drama in the forum?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
?

Crap. I gotta have breakfast.

Later!

...pretty fun though

EDIT:
I'm not being irrational...and I'll demosntrate how in a little bit.

You are the most clueless person I've ever met. Despite being factually wrong, and knowing it (Because you must.), you won't admit it. We all know you're wrong, what worse can you do besides admitting it?

"I don't think I am.".

But you are, proven.

-AC

I think that for the sake of argument, you have to assume that fact and truth are the same rather than separate, or else you need to present a pretty compelling case for the latter.

And musical criticism, however learned and experienced the critic might be, still does not have the authority to make a certain artist’s music factually good or factually bad. It’s just absurd.

Consensus among informed critics does not make their opinions fact. It’s ridiculous to think so. It might be a fact that the majority of learned individuals hold a certain opinion based on their expertise, but the music itself is not factually good or factually bad independently of their opinions.

P.S. Sorry I haven’t read the entire argument up to this point…it started to get a bit tedious around page 5.

Originally posted by Cory Chaos
Was this brought up without provocation because someone thought we needed more ****ing drama in the forum?

Drama is fun.

Oh....I've just been informed, it's not.

OK

As promised:

Why what I think is not irrational...

AC claims that truth is subjective...I say it isn't. It is a fallacious philosophical idea that a lot of people get confused by.

Right now, there is certain weather in Spain.

A guy in Canada claims that it's raining in Spain at the moment. He doesn't have access to any concrete proof about what the weather is like in Spain right now, but thinks he's right for various reasons...maybe because of the time of year it is, or because it's been raining there for the past week, etc...

A guy in Russia claims that it's not raining in Spain right now...again, with no concrete proof, but has his reasons for believing he is right.

Now, if indeed TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE, then the guy in Canada who thinks his subjective view is right, would then also logically have to think that the other guys' subjective view is right...because you're saying truth is indeed subjective.

He would basically have to also admit that he is as much wrong as he is right...because the Russian guys' subjective view (which MUST be right if truth is subjective) is in direct opposition to his subjective view, thus making it wrong.

Well, you can't be both right AND wrong about something. That's illogical.

The thing is, there is only one thing that can "truly" be happening in Spain right now...and as it turns out, it's raining.

That is a truth that stands alone, regardless of what people claim is happening there. There is only ONE thing that is ACTUALLY happening there.

Therefore, truth is NOT subjective. It exists apart from subjective opinions.

…and for the purposes of this argument, I say there is an objective truth about music being crap that we can only guess at (and I’ve demonstrated ways that this happens unanimously with informed opinions using determining factors), but it can’t be known for sure…because there are no FACTS to prove whether or not music is crap.

However, the TRUTH about whether a song is crap or not exists…apart from what people think is the SUBJECTIVE TRUTH about it…and apart from any facts (that are nowhere to be found) about it.

Capiche?

I'm pretty sure he said it was objective.

Dunno if that messes up your post.

Also not sure how you can still...think that.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
AC claims that truth is subjective...I say it isn't. It is a fallacious philosophical idea that a lot of people get confused by.

What? No I don't, truth is OBJECTIVE, which is precisely why you are wrong. It's truth, it's fact and it's reality that there is no factual, truthful or objective good/bad music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Right now, there is certain weather in Spain.

A guy in Canada claims that it's raining in Spain at the moment. He doesn't have access to any concrete proof about what the weather is like in Spain right now, but thinks he's right for various reasons...maybe because of the time of year it is, or because it's been raining there for the past week, etc...

A guy in Russia claims that it's not raining in Spain right now...again, with no concrete proof, but has his reasons for believing he is right.

Now, if indeed TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE, then the guy in Canada who thinks his subjective view is right, would then also logically have to think that the other guys' subjective view is right...if truth is in fact subjective.

What...on EARTH are you on about? All of this doesn't change the fact that truth is OBJECTIVE, and I have never claimed otherwise. The truth is NOT subjective. You do not get to choose who truth is if there is already something discrediting or discounting your debate.

In this case, everything proves you wrong, and now, instead of debating the actual topic, you are attempting nonsensical, philosophical wankery to cover your tracks, and it still isn't working.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
He would basically have to also admit that he is as much wrong as he is right...because the Russian guys' subjective view (which MUST be right if truth is subjective) is in direct opposition to his subjective view, thus making it wrong.

Truth isn't subjective. It's objective. You proposed that truth is objective also, but the perception of it is not objective, you propose the perception of truth is subjective. You make NO sense, THAT makes no sense.

All of this because you can't accept you were wrong about music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well, you can't be both right AND wrong about something. That's illogical.

Precisely, which is why there IS no right and wrong in terms of music perception, with regards to personal experience.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The thing is, there is only one thing that can "truly" be happening in Spain right now...and as it turns out, it's raining.

That is a truth that stands alone, regardless of what people claim is happening in Spain. There is only ONE thing that is ACTUALLY happening in Spain.

Precisely. Regardless of what you claim is truth, there is only one thing happening here; You're making yourself look stupid.

You still don't accept that truth and fact are one.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Therefore, truth is NOT subjective.

Of course it's not. That's the whole point.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
…and for the purposes of this argument, I say there is an objective truth about music being crap that we can only guess at (and I’ve demonstrated ways that happens with informed opinions), but it can’t be known for sure…because there are no facts to prove whether or not music is crap.

Do you know WHY there's no facts? Because it's not truth, you moron. It's entirely subjective and down to personal perception.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
However, the TRUTH about whether a song is crap or not exists…apart from what people think is the SUBJECTIVE TRUTH about it…and apart from any facts (that are nowhere to be found) about it.

Read that back to yourself. Honestly read that back.

-AC

Its funny though, for a while EpIII stopped being such a closed-minded dick and actually started making decent posts. I guess that was a tough act to keep up.

I think this is the act, to be honest.

I hope so, anyway.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Capiche?

To sum it up...

Just like there was a truth about the weather that existed apart from any available facts (as illustrated in my example), so too does the truth about a song being crap or not exist apart from facts.

The truth is out there...regardless if facts can point to it or not. I have shown how.

And there is ever only one truth...there is one truth about whether a song is crap or not (as there was only one truth about whether it was raining in Spain or not).

As for what AC thinks...he DOES think that whether a song is crap or not is subjective. And he points to simply a person's taste as some kind of measure of this.

How what I'm saying can be discounted is beyond me...but anyway. I'll just keep posting this last piece from now on, cause I'm pretty much done exaplaining it.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Its funny though, for a while EpIII stopped being such a closed-minded dick and actually started making decent posts. I guess that was a tough act to keep up.

Good on ya.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Obviously...no capiche.

To sum it up...

Just like there was a truth that existed about the weather apart from any available facts (as illustrated in my example), so too does the truth about whether a song is crap or not exist apart from facts.

The truth is out there...and there is only one truth about whether a song is crap or not (as there was only one truth about whether it was raining in Spain or not).

As for what AC thinks...he DOES think that whether a song is crap or not is subjective. And he points to simply a person's taste as some kind of proof.

How what I'm saying can be discounted is beyond me...but anyway.

But the point you're making isn't whether music exists or not (as it does, in the form of sound), but whether a song is "crap" or not. I don't think objective reality makes a distinction between nice weather and "crappy" weather: we do.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Right now, there is certain weather in Spain.

A guy in Canada claims that it's raining in Spain at the moment. He doesn't have access to any concrete proof about what the weather is like in Spain right now, but thinks he's right for various reasons...maybe because of the time of year it is, or because it's been raining there for the past week, etc...

You're mixing up facts with flawed information. A fact is something that exists in objective reality. What the guy in Canada is claiming to be true is actually a simple case of error, bad sources, what have you. People make mikstakes, as you have throughly exemplified in your argument.

The truth is out there?

This isn't the X-Files, man. Your point is invalid because it has no sound basis. Your argument is flawed (or at least this metaphor is flawed) because you're talking, on the one hand, about something existing objectively (as whether and sound certainly do), but our INTERPRETATION of these phenomena is what makes them good or bad, based on what we ourselves determine as good or bad.

Did you even read my post before?

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath

Consensus among informed critics does not make their opinions fact. It might be a fact that the majority of learned individuals hold a certain opinion based on their expertise, but the music itself is not factually good or factually bad independently of their opinions.

I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time with this. Are you just being stubborn?

Oh don't come back with "You don't understand.", you just posted a novel based on me believing truth is subjective, which I don't.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The truth is out there...regardless if facts can point to it or not.

As stated previously, that is to do with lack of evidence, not truth and fact being different.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And there is ever only one truth...and in this case there is only one truth about whether a song is crap or not (as there was only one truth about whether it was raining in Spain or not).

Precisely, and it's that there is no objective good and bad.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
As for what AC thinks...he DOES think that whether a song is crap or not is subjective. And he points to simply a person's taste as some kind of measure of this.

Yeah. Music being good or bad is subjective, that is truth. This truth is objective. Truth is never subjective.

Topic: Music being objectively good or bad.

My stance: There is no such thing, backed up with proof.

Case in point: Truth is not subjective, but objective. In this case, the truth is that there is no objective in music quality. It's ALL opinion.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
How what I'm saying can be discounted is beyond me...but anyway. I'll just keep posting this last piece from now on, cause I'm pretty much done exaplaining it.

EPIIIBITES, there are many things beyond you. You keep posting your last piece and I'll report you for trolling. We get what you believe, it's just wrong. Continual posting it won't make us believe it any more.

If you want to debate this losing battle, continue, but if you're just gonna paste, then don't bother. "Give it up.".

You don't want to admit you are wrong, so you are looking for any excuse to post.

-AC

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
Consensus among informed critics does not make their opinions fact. It’s ridiculous to think so. It might be a fact that the majority of learned individuals hold a certain opinion based on their expertise, but the music itself is not factually good or factually bad independently of their opinions.

Maybe you missed a lot of my arguments (even before page 5), where I constantly say there is no fact involved in this.

THIS is waht I said about consensus and opinion...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So you say that even criteria comes down to opinion.

I argue that people who have informed opinions about music and use such criteria (although they probably don't do it as consciously) will more or less tend to agree with each other that Brittney is crap.

And this is because they've heard and they know what music is considered to be innovative...to have substance...to have soul...to have good instrumentation. Their opinions are informed. For example, they listened to a Jimi Hendrix album...thought it was innovative, had soul, etc...and those thoughts were re-affirmed by their other informed peers. And this happened again with other music...and again...until they started to realize that music experts are often agreeing on the same stuff being good music (and the same stuff being crap).

So I don't think you can just say "it depends on what someone's taste is" when it comes to determining if music is bad or not.

And really, it's becasue there truly is music that is "bad", and truly is music that is "not bad". It's obvious.

Who cares if you can't prove it with facts. It's a reality.

As far as I'm concerned...it doesn't have to...and you don't necessarily have to prove something for it to be true in reality.

That's all I have to say regarding that.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
If you had read my arguments, I constantly say there is no fact involved in this.

And fact is truth. That is a fact.

So there is no truth in your debate, so you're attempting to MAKE UP a truth.

It's laughable. This is all based around "I don't agree fact is truth.", when it's not up to you. Fact IS truth.

-AC

I wasn't talking to you...hadn't quoted the other guy yet.

I don't care if you were talking to me, it's an open forum.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I don't even see why you wrote what you did in the above quote regarding consensus making things fact.

Maybe you missed a lot of my arguments (even before page 5), where I constantly say there is no fact involved in this.

So if you say:

a) There is no fact involved

b) Fact is equal to truth

then what are you arguing about? Fact and truth are firmly grounded in objective reality. If fact has nothing to do with it, then you must admit that good and bad music is determined by subjective tastes. There is no other option.