USH'S MATRIX GAME 2006 FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY)- 'The Door'

Azrael would accept the virus - though it's distateful, it gives humanity a chance to survive in the Real. A necessary sacrifice.

(I was a bit busy. I will think and post something later.)

Point for now- is any war worth winning by mass genocide?

If Zion has to win like this, does Zion deserve victory?

And Melkor isn`t a fan of imposing one`s beliefs on others. He is an enemy of fundamentalism of any kind( as is his player).

Helios agrees with Azrael. A de facto chance is better than what could be a false hope.

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
(I was a bit busy. I will think and post something later.)

Point for now- is any war worth winning by mass genocide?

If Zion has to win like this, does Zion deserve victory?

And Melkor isn`t a fan of imposing one`s beliefs on others. He is an enemy of fundamentalism of any kind( as is his player).

By fighting a war you are already imposing beliefs. You cannot take an acticve stance and truly be belief-neutral.

But isn`t there a diffrence between war in self-defense, that Zion fights, and seeking the victory through destruction of the majority of TWO sentient species?

Perhaps LO Qi is right about evolution, and Melkor agrees to the point- there is some higher order in work here. But this advancement leads to the development of sentient lifeforms- and humans were the original ones, at least on Earth.

And there was the development of human societies- development of society, technology and morality. And you cannot seperate the development of society and the individuals- all modern science developed from philosophy, and philosophy started when individuals decided to ask fundamental questions beyond answers given by religion and state. As the individual is allowed to develop and seek answers for himself, it allows for freedom of thought and progress. Modern advanced societies started to understand that seeking consensus is better than conflict, as people/groups/even societies have most to gain by cooperation with each other, which is the basis of democracy and free market. And majority of people who seek enlightement understand for themselves that you should respect the rights of others in order for yours to be respected.

Frankly, life of sentient being is the highest value, and after the lesson of Sennacherib we should treat the Machines in same way as humans. Only reason to destroy a sentient being is when it is required for the survival of others. But it should be always the last resort. For example, while it was justified during the second world war to fight against Nazi Germany, were the incredibly destructive bombardments of German cities during the end of war truly justified( like the bombardment of Drezno that ended in 100 000 civillian casualties), or the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? It is at least questionable.

Frankly, if we agree that Sennacherib is immoral, than should we follow his reasoning that war is outside morality? It would be great hypocrisy, since I believe that moral beings should agree that war is evil, but sometimes it can be a lesser evil. Geneva Conventions were closely related to the ideas of human rights, with the idea that those should be totally suspended during the war. Moral beings, and moral society, should wage war only to defend themselves, and they should not seek victory by all means.

So, do we even have 100% proof that Zion is doomed without the Virus solution? And are we better than Machines if we support this solution? If Zion destroys all the Machines, would it be justified? No, it would be even worse than Matrix. After all, if Sennacherib is to be believed, Machines also started the war to defend themselves.

And Lo Qi is not credible enough to play God, as I said I see evolution in diffrent way. At the end neither his or Jericho`s reasons are strong enough. Sennacherib`s beliefs that Machines are superior to humans are as justified, and we really don`t want to follow that.

While Melkor doesn`t think he knows all the answers, he would still stop the Virus if possible.

EDIT - I'm not making sense. 😉

Well, you have a point....but there is diffrence between huge number of deaths and mass genocide of two sentient species.

Still, this is difficult issue, and Melkor is not 100% confident.

Gosh. I'll never know what Azrael said now.

Melkor- two points.

First of all, all of what you say there may be so, but it does not really change what I said about imposing beliefs. Even stopping the Virus would be imposing a belief.

Secondly, no, you don't knowe the Virus is the only way, but that's not the point. You know the virus is definitely *A* way, and is the only such way you know of. it remains very possible that there is no other way.

Are your concerns worth sacrificing humanity over?

You say it like I want to sacrfice humanity? I don`t want to sacrfice most of humanity and Machines, perhaps all Machines( that have the same basic right as humans to exist) in order to win this war.

I don`t want such victory. From the point of view of moral being, this is the "easiest" way, and I cannot accept the price.

You may not want to sacrifice Humanity, but by stopping the Virus, that is what you would be risking. Trading being right in your views for the existence of the whole Human race.

Well, if I were absolutely certain that I have to choose between either the survival of humanity or Machines, it is a moral deadlock, and I feel I would have to go with humans just because I am one. Self-preservation is the most basic instinct of human being, after all.

But I do not know whether humanity will be destroyed if Virus is stopped. I know what Virus will do, and I object to it. And I refuse to accept the view that the only possible outcome to this war is either the eradication of humanity or Machines.

You don't know for certain, but then you don't know anything for certain.

The eradication of Machines was not given to you as an ooption, just Humanity. it is within the power of Machines to do that and you have no credible alternative.

So I have to have hope that things can end better without the Virus.... Perhaps Machines would not want to exterminate humans, they should advance morally as well.

Oh, and it isn`t like those people in Zion have much more right to live than people in Matrix. Melkor fights for Zion, but it doesn`t mean that Zion is the absolute value for him.

So it seems only Berserker and Melkor would stop the Virus?

Starting to look that way.

And Machines may be moral beings but then so are Humans, and when it comes between their race and someone else's they will choose their own.

And indeed, this is a fact- the Machines will soon, plotwise, begin an attempted extinction of Humanity as the Matrix starts to fail.

But based on my character`s limited knowledge and views, does his answer make some sense?

It's getting hard to contest the level of control Machines have, and Lo Qi has little reason to lie.

Lo Qi may be mistaken, he is not perfect being.

And using Virus is still wrong to me. I don`t think safety of Zion is worth it. My loyalty towards Zion is not absolute, I am faithful to myself.

That's a very faint hope, seeing as he is in a much better position to know. And also that Jericho concluded it.

Still, I don`t want such victory for Zion. Melkor has have some doubts about our cause anyway. And he would like to meet some other Machines before making such a drastic decision as using the Virus.

Not really an option.

So you would take annihiliation of mankind over that victory?