USH'S MATRIX GAME 2006 FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY)- 'The Door'

Berserker kills those people because he feels he is defending his friends. Also remember that as long as Berserker hasn't been attacked then he hasn't fought back as well.

There is a difference between getting into trouble and wanting it.

also from the way Lo Qi sounded it seemed more likely that most of the machines with the real say so would have been fine. That it was the idea of loosing so many machines that had fought so hard was the reason.

Azrael might be tempted to save himself, but not if it would preserve the Matrix.

To say that you killed in defence seems a bit tenuous - there were times when you could have chosen merely to flee, but it was more convenient to eliminate your attackers, wasn't it?

To try and justify a decision against the virus on the grounds of 'getting into trouble' and 'wanting it' seems a bit weak - every time you enter the Matrix it would be to get into 'trouble', it's not like we just trek around going shopping and going to restaurants without any intent of doing damage to the System. In the same way that the SWAT are being used by the machines to fight Zion unknowingly the rest of the humans are used as a power source which is being utilised to try and destroy Zion.

I don't mean to get at you, Jak, this goes for Melkor too.

Well, I'll throw this in.

For a start, Berserker is killing in a combat situation and although it is hard to quantify, there IS a moral difference between killing in a fight against people that are trying to kill you, and between the mass and cold blooded genocide of a vast, almost unimaginable number of people in roder so that you can then inflict a similar genocide on another set of people.

Also consider that you would be slaughtering a. non-combatants and b. all the minds that could have been freed.

Not necessarily making a judgment here, but I have great sympathy for people that lay down a difference between the killing they are more or less forced to do as a soldier (but would not do if they could avoid it), and such an enormous act of mass death, twice over.

I would also- because this is rather the crutch of the issue- like to ask the pro-virus people about their answer to the Sennacherib issue.

Originally posted by Trickster

To try and justify a decision against the virus on the grounds of 'getting into trouble' and 'wanting it' seems a bit weak - every time you enter the Matrix it would be to get into 'trouble', it's not like we just trek around going shopping and going to restaurants without any intent of doing damage to the System. In the same way that the SWAT are being used by the machines to fight Zion unknowingly the rest of the humans are used as a power source which is being utilised to try and destroy Zion.

I don't mean to get at you, Jak, this goes for Melkor too.

But as for the second issue. If what you say is true why do we not simply go into the matrix every time and plan mass bombs or cause Nuclear Plants to go into meltdown. Get our hands on a Nuclear Bomb and set a timer for it to go off then leave. To kill the people who are just walking around. It would cause huge fluxes in power for the machines with such wide spread death of their power source?

Berserker for one wouldn't but it seems like you guys would without a thought.

(Sorry for being gone for such a long time).

Balder's on Berserker's side. Our mission is to free humanity; not commit mass genocide so a few can live.

Originally posted by Newjak
But as for the second issue. If what you say is true why do we not simply go into the matrix every time and plan mass bombs or cause Nuclear Plants to go into meltdown. Get our hands on a Nuclear Bomb and set a timer for it to go off then leave. To kill the people who are just walking around. It would cause huge fluxes in power for the machines with such wide spread death of their power source?

Presumably that would have happend by now if you could.

It simply appears that you cannot programme WMDs into the Matrix.

I'd better kick you with the same ball I kicked at the others, Balder- most of those Humans can never be freed.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Presumably that would have happend by now if you could.

It simply appears that you cannot programme WMDs into the Matrix.

Still the question remains what is the difference from doing that and allowing the Virus to do what it is doing?

Eek. There goes my argument.

Well, there is still the few than can be saved, and should be because who's to decide that I get to die freely and they die in servitude? And also, Balder cannot condone mass slaughter to innocents, no matter what it accomplishes; the end does not justify the means.

Originally posted by Newjak
True. Still we saw the bombs are still very much capable so why not just go in and place bombs all over the place.

Still the question remains what is the difference from doing that and allowing the Virus to do what it is doing?

Well, depends what you used them for- you could use nukes in much more creative ways than just killing everyone.

Conventional bombing- aka terrorism- will never win the war, and the System will just keep hunting you down for no great final effect fron you guys.

But for the last bit- what is the difference between using theoretical nukes to destroy the Matrix and the Virus? None. I am just fairly certain there are plenty within Zion who would do it- one of whom has actually contributed towards making it happen. That's not really the issue though.

Fair enough, Balder, although calling them slaves is a little dodgy from what we were discussing earlier.

Well, die in ignorance and without an ability to think for yourself.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, depends what you used them for- you could use nukes in much more creative ways than just killing everyone.

Conventional bombing- aka terrorism- will never win the war, and the System will just keep hunting you down for no great final effect fron you guys.

But for the last bit- what is the difference between using theoretical nukes to destroy the Matrix and the Virus? None. I am just fairly certain there are plenty within Zion who would do it- one of whom has actually contributed towards making it happen. That's not really the issue though.

Fair enough, Balder, although calling them slaves is a little dodgy from what we were discussing earlier.

Do you think people living in the 20th century were ignorant and unable to think for themselves?

True, I'm just thinking about their bodies within the power plants and not the conscious in the Matrix.

So they would not have the opportunity to live consciously in the "real" world.

Does that really make much difference? The lives are stil valid, and from the same perspective, you don't know if what you are experiencing is real either.

Klez agrees with Azrael. If saving himself meant stopping the Virus and thereby saving the Matrix, he would not do it unless he had a very sure alternative way of eliminating the Machines' power source.

As much as he would enjoy living and returning to Melis, he knows that there are others like him. Others that might die in combat today, tomorrow, whenever, if the Matrix is not destroyed. All the soldiers in Zion, not to mention everyone else, could be saved, and then Humanity would move forwards from Zion and have its chance to advance.

Your worries about people dying in combat seem moot against letting the virus kill billions, who didn't even make a choice to become soldiers or any such thing. That makes little sense; your way kills far more.

And I really do need a response to the Sennacherib issue.

Oh, if the chance to save himself was introduced, Heph would stop the Virus in a heartbeat, as it would spare him and likely his friends as well. Currently, he does not see a way for anyone in the Matrix to be saved, and so he believes that the Virus should continue its mission. But if he could prevent his own death, he would halt the process.

Heph, you gotta admit, that looks morally... suspect.

"Oh, I'll do this thing that will kill billions because I think it is important. Wait... it will kill ME as well? Oh hell, that's different, I'll stop it..."

And again. I need a response from all pro-virus people on the Sennacherib issue.

Sennacherib believes that war is outside morality, it seems that Azrael`s camp agrees with it.

And I agree about the diffrence between killing enemy combatants and billions of non-combatants. I earlier made a comparison to second world war- there was certain diffrence between killing Japanese soldiers and destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

Besides, the more Melkor learns about Machines, the less he likes this war.