USH'S MATRIX GAME 2006 FOURTH ASSIGNMENT (PHILOSOPHY)- 'The Door'

Not 'appear to be', Klez. This would be MAKING humans the bad guys. it would be, by any rational moral standard, making you more evil than the Machines, the equivalent of the nazis in this scenario- victory by evil.

What right do you have to kill all those people? And I feel I should point out... you're not creating any extra people in future by doing this. You cannot avoid the fact you are wiping out billions of Humans who are in a situation by which the Earth is alreafy filled with endless future generations of Humans. You'd be impeding that process, not helping it. You mean 'free' Humans, but that's a whole different moral case to your implication that otherwise the future would have no Humans at all. That's simply false.

If you believe for certain that Zion is doomed and humanity are doomed, then there is another issue- is a Human life worth more than a Machine's? What about their future generations?

I do need people to be aware that a moral justification for this mass genocide on 'higher future purpose' is no different from justifying any genocide attempt- the Holocaust, foe example.

I am not going to stop you being that person, but it does make you the bad guy in-game. I don't want anyone to take that choice and to avoid the moral implication. You cannot hide from it, any more than those who chose to stop it can hide from the possibility that it dooms the human race.

If there was a comfortable way out, it wouldn't be much of a philo issue.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Like I say, I need a firm case- because you'll only get one shot at any solution.

We also know it didn't much like Jericho as it broke his arm?

Maybe we should have a group go after Jericho and another go look at the door more?

Yes, first person in, but he made a mistake there, so don't get too caught up on who it was in there at the time.

Too vague, berserker. You have no time to collect evidence. You need a firm case based on what you know now.

Threat it as a murder. We need means, motive and opportunity.

... ok, no results... well, look, there are only so many suspects. Look at them.

I think Azrael is waiting for someone to reply to him.

"You didn't give us a choice in this," Sirin says. "You could have told us what was at hand, but instead you manipulated what we thought were your allies into more or less killing themselves and billions of others as well. You may be comfortable with mass murder, but we're not."

"Hell, I opened the Door!" Heph shouts. "I might as well be directly responsible for all this, if it weren't for the fact that you planned this."

Relating it to justifying the Holocaust only gives me reason to think that I scare myself...

My confusion is that...if we're fighting this war at all, aren't we already in the wrong?

Edit- Melkor was here.

Well Klez, don` let Ush scare you, defend your view. While I don`t want to defend position contrary to mine, I think that this is definately very far from stuff like Holocaust.

Originally posted by Alkaselzer
Relating it to justifying the Holocaust only gives me reason to think that I scare myself...

My confusion is that...if we're fighting this war at all, aren't we already in the wrong?

Well blimey.

I think a comparison to the Holocaust is at least meant to bring out the response that you can actually point to a laudable cause- i.e. the survival of Humanity- as opposed to some obvious nonsense about eugenics.

I simply wanted you to consider the kind of history and personalities you are aligning yourself with when you try to justify mass murder. Because no matter how good your justification, you cannot ignore the fact that you are morally responsible for the deaths of billions of nnocent people, and you did not give them a choice in the matter. Did any of them ask to die for your cause? You never free people without asking them to choose; would you give less courtesy to those you now wish to kill?

As for the war being wrong- you are fighting to free Humanity from immoral slavery perpetuated by the Machines. Just fighting a war in of itself is not necessarily wrong, especially if you represent the oppressed. I don't remember there being a strong pacifist streak around here.

Even if it was wrong... I can't quite see the logic that says "Well, we're already a little bit wrong, so why not go the whole hog and become completely wrong?"

If you go with this, you cannot slip away from the moral implications, that's the only problem. The implications that:

- You would become like Sennacherib, the being of no morals

- You would commit an act that was coinsidered so bad the Machines would not do it, therefore making Humans worse than Machines- in which case, are you playing good guys or bad giys in this game?

- Not even Zion is interested in doing sich a thing. Some people in it, yes, but not, say, the Council.

And if an unknown future or anonymous mass of people does not worry you... then also consider that it sets you against your friends. Dallas, for example, is going to take two seconds before he concludes the Virus should be stopped; he's not even going to think about it.

Now, I want you to be honest, but not to escape all that. when Berserker was describing his views, I hit him over the head with the possible destruction of humanity and the apparent hypocrisy of someone who stabs several dozen SWAT to death suddebnly talking about respect for life.

Views like these are hard to hold (similar to people last time concluding they did not exist- I mean, who, really, could actually think that?), they have to withstand assault. If you honestly think Klez does think like that, then please stick with it.

One thing I will say though- this Path nd the game plot is built to handle all eventualities.

But I cannot do anything about the changed group dynamic that results from this. Some people may well be feeling extremely dodgy about others, and some left feeling extremely guilty.

Azrael is working on the basis that allowing the mass murder to happen when you could stop it is not as morally culpable as causing it. Aside from the point that I don't think that is a distinction all of you would agree with, it doesn't change the fact that it is still a moral issue and on an enormous scale.

One important addendum to that is that you would be planning one genocide rather than just allowing it- that of the Machines. Lo Qi's plan does not include their destruction; it would be you guys planning to take advantage of this to crush them.

Another important addendum- as Heph is wrangling about- is that you chose to open the door and accept the consequences of doing so. Klez, I am aware that this does not apply to you.

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In any case, most views have been gathered. The focus on my subsequent question is now the essential one.

Remember, means, motive, opportunity. We need someone who:

- Would want to have created it

- Is capable of creating it

- Was in a position to have created it

For example, Jericho has the motivation. But we can quickly rule him out because he is simply not old enough to have had means or opportunity; the Virus is as old as the Matrix is.

Both Sennacherib and Lo Qi would have means and opportunity, especially Lo Qi who is apparently surrounded by capable programmists( like those monks). Sennacherib could have some allies capable of programming it as well, if he couldn`t do it himself.

But Sennacherib would be more likely to want to create it- Lo Qi said he was thinking about releasing the Virus for a long time, so I am not sure he planned those things so long ago.

On the other hand, Sennacherib wouldn`t want the destruction of Matrix while Zion is around to take advantage- but since it was created so long ago...

Yes. A VERY long time ago.

And Sennacherib is only programme we know about that is VERY old?

Sounds reasonable.

Do we have any evidence he has the Means for such a programming feat?

He could create it when his original idea was rejected, in order to sabotage the Matrix.

Sennacherib could have some allies skiled in programming. He was a very influential Machine.

That's all a bit vague, though... we're looking for evidence.

Well.....the means aspect would point more to someone like one of those programming monks with Lo Qi.

Yes, but it aslso counts against it.

The Monks actively said they were unable to understand the Virus, I believe.

Also, do you really think the Machines would put Lo Qi to stand guard over the Virus if he was responsible for it in the first place?

Motivation-

He was around before the creation of the Matrix, so he could have created the Virus long before Zion was even a threat. It would have been a good weapon again humanity; he could have wiped them out entirely, as he had wanted to before the Matrix was created.

Position-

He has set himself up in a leadership position with his Army of Sentinels, and seems to have a great deal of power all his own. He is an Exile and lives in his Fortress, well-protected by his Army, and so would have time and safety to have created the Virus.

Capability-

He "gave" his Sentinel Army their spider-like appearances in the Matrix, meaning he would have had to code them to appear that way.

Good job with the Sentinel observation, Brit!