Originally posted by Ouallada
That's not answering the question of how Onslaught's feat was not physical. If Psylocke were to use her blade or Jean were to use her TK, those would be physical applications of psionic energy. If either were to use their hands to physically pick up something, it would be a physical feat.Juggernaut's forcefield and crystal shielding protects him from all attacks, but is weakest to mystical attacks. He is only vulnerable to psionic intrusion without his helmet.
Stop dancing around. Reference the scan and show me where it was psionic.
What defines the physical?
Matter does. If something is made out of matter (like atoms) then it is physical. Force fields and other psionic constructs are not physical but still made of energy. They just can be used to have physical effects (like moving things etc.)
And I'm probably mistaken on the Juggs being weak to sufficient psionic attack. I thought I read about it somewhere. It's been a long time. So let's just say I'm wrong here and consider the Onslaught feat as either bad writing (the gem wasn't even suppose to be in his chest) or that Onslaught had the strength that exceeds the strength of the bonds that hold the universe together (the crimson bands of cyttorak). This makes Juggs vulnerable to forces that exceed the universal limit.
Originally posted by h1a8
I just looked at the rules. They seem to have changed the wording to a lot of the rules. Trust me I've been here for a long time (look at my join date) and I always remember the PIS to have Thor being able to use his Godblast anytime and Flash using superspeed at anytime. It seems they made the rules more concise (more to the point with less examples).If a character has performed a certain high caliber of feat enough times then it is not PIS and valid as 'fighting to a character's fullest extent'.
Low feats contradict high ones thus we choose high ones by default.
Everyone here chooses only the high feats for the character they want to win.Another philosophy (yours) is to choose the average between high and low. But not only is this impossible (try it and you will see) due to people needing to point out specific feats as evidence, but it takes away a character's ability to exert themselves in the manner that they have shown before.
Now I understand if a character has 1 or 2 high end feats that contradicts the mass history of a character. That's why we called this PIS. I personally have a rule of three. If a character has performed a certain high caliber feat at least three times then that character can do it anytime without it being PIS.
Lastly the IG saga is the exception I was talking about. Do you remember me specifically saying talking about an exception?
SS searching the planet didn't necessarily mean he used speed. Since he has cosmic awareness he could have went out to an optimal location and scanned the whole planet from there and then came back. And this feat certainly took seconds (as Strange was talking for at least some seconds). And Superman has instantly performed many complex tasks in less than a second. So that feat doesn't disprove my 2 or more second needed to exceed light speed.But guess what? You only listed 2 arguable feats
here where the majority of SS's history have him being a slow starter. So using your logic SS is a slow starter.And the scan I'm talking about is then one where the panel is timing him when he enters a field as fast as he can. It showed the distanced he covered vs. the time it took him. And from my memory I calculated SS to achieving bullet speed within the first second and light speed and beyond after about two seconds.
So the rules do not state that Thor can godblast anytime but do state that a forum fight implies that Thor is "in character", where "in character" references the fact that Thor has fewer than a handful of godblasts in hundreds of appearances? Your retraction is accepted. No worries.
We have already established that performance levels are inconsistent. Fighting in character and CIS rules cover the portion on using godblasts 10000/10 times. It isn't a case of whether high feats are PIS, it is a case of averages, and whether or not a character is in bloodlust, the latter pertaining to "in character" and CIS stipulations.
Philosophy? I believe that you refer to logic. It obviously is not impossible to look at a character using averages. This is why characters like Superman and SS are high heralds by concensus, even though they both have feats higher AND lower than that level. In fact, I would postulate that your take on things is logically worse off, because it bumps every character up the power scale, and effectively argues high feats, not characters.
You are confusing PIS and CIS here, or rather taking confusing what I am saying about them. PIS refers to a story-driven incident, or writer stupidity. A character having three similar high end feats may exclude them from PIS on a case-by-case basis, but does not exclude CIS and the "in character" stipulation at all.
SS searching a planet does not necessarily mean he used only physical means, but the fact that there was some physical search is undeniable. The fact that he claims that the search was thorough can also mean that he actually searched the planet more than once. You must be talking about the instance with grandmaster. If so, I would be interested in seeing where your calculations came from. SS has also been to have travelled "light years in seconds". None of your conjectures have proven that SS takes seconds to hit light speed, and none have shown than Superman can do better on a consistent basis.
But guess what? You have shown no examples of Superman going faster than SS, when the majority of his appearances have been below light speed.
Originally posted by h1a8
What defines the physical?
Matter does. If something is made out of matter (like atoms) then it is physical. Force fields and other psionic constructs are not physical but still made of energy. They just can be used to have physical effects (like moving things etc.)And I'm probably mistaken on the Juggs being weak to sufficient psionic attack. I thought I read about it somewhere. It's been a long time. So let's just say I'm wrong here and consider the Onslaught feat as either bad writing (the gem wasn't even suppose to be in his chest) or that Onslaught had the strength that exceeds the strength of the bonds that hold the universe together (the crimson bands of cyttorak). This makes Juggs vulnerable to forces that exceed the universal limit.
You do realise that you are attempting to use physics to explain comicbook science? Even so, here is how Webster defines "physical": having material existence : perceptible especially through the senses and subject to the laws of nature; everything physical is measurable by weight, motion, and resistance.
What does that tell us? Onslaught's armour was physical. Unless you could explain how an energy construct could physically affect other entities using real physics, the action was physical as far as that word is defined.
Yes, you were mistaken.
Originally posted by h1a8And nearly everytime SS was shown to travel from rest (all except one time) the panel showed him taken at least a second or two (one scan showed the time it took for him to reach light speed and beyond).
I havent really read the argument going on here but this is a complete lie. Only God knows where you are getting it from.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
ZOMG SPEEDBLITZ!!!!!!!!!!
Man i cannot believe this this thread is still going lol.
Can pre-crisis supes read odins mind?
What is to prevent odin from casting a spell just from thought,before he has a chance to even do anything.
Hmm say he made himself intangable, or say he made himself invisable who knows this is the comics and writers can add to his arsenal any type of spell they want to. If you cant grab odin how is supes amazing strength going to help, let alone his speed.
Superman suffers from the same stuff
Hes not versital at all and is extremely weak against magic,this is why PC supes has been beat o whole hell of alot more then odin has and by weaker oponents.
and odins magic is of the most powerful kind.
If odin just sits there like a retard and lets supes hit him then yes odin is going down. But odin aint going to let that happen.
Now if you give PC supes the resistability like SMP someone with high resistance to magic. then this is no contest.
Superman not even PC supes is a match for a skyfather especially odin.
Speedbliting or not. You guys keep bringing up the same thing, speed and strength. It dont matter how strong or how fast he is only under the most extreme circumstances could PC supes even have a chance.
Superman does great against powerhouses and thats all. HE gets his butt knocked around by magic users. In compairison to Odin supes has a very poor track record for fighting multi-skilled opponents.
PC supes is not beatable by odin physically or useing speed no way. But if batman can find a way to negate the speed force when it comes to flash. I think Odin can figure a way out to deal with supes. Even PC supes and he was extremely fast thus the reason for the powerdowns.
Just cant see supes taking out a skyfather nope.
Odin is a god with god like intelligence and has thousands of years worth of battle experience behind him. No mere mortal is going to best that. Especially one as limited in abilities as PC supes.
Originally posted by zeelJust cant see supes taking out a skyfather nope.
Odin is a god with god like intelligence and has thousands of years worth of battle experience behind him. No mere mortal is going to best that. Especially one as limited in abilities as PC supes.
PC Superman could smash skyfathers, hell post crisis Supes has competed with skyfather level beings.
As far as Odin goes, if not for his ability with pure magic, PC Superman would smash him too.
Originally posted by quanchi112
His energy attacks can launch Galactus and hurt the Maker. Both of these beings have power that dwarfs pc superman. His attacks would indeed hurt and beat Superman.Thanos could and would hurt him and supes doesnt have the power to put him down. While Thanos can mindrape him. You havent proven he can resist this.
His energy attacks aren't stopping Superman on most occasions. 1) Due to the speed factor and 2) Because PC Supes had an ungodly resistant to energy attacks. Launching Galactus doesn't mean anything, that's just physics (you know, force of attack vs the power of gravity).
As far as the maker goes wasn't she mortal? Meaning she could be hurt by Thanos energy attacks, it doesn't say anything about PC Superman's great durability against energy attacks.
Lastly, PC Superman had the ability to resist TP, I believe there's a respect thread somewhere with an example of Superman resisting a high end telepath with just the strength of his mind. PC Superman was immune to telepathy.
If the Silver Surfer can't affect Odin and him and Thanos put together can't take Odin then there's no way any version of Superman can do anything. The Allfather can turn Superman to glass and shatter him, turn him to a stone statue, remove him from existence, scatter his molecules, take his powers away, de-evolve him into a puddle of goop, etc. Superman is not even a threat. I mean the Silver Surfer zapped Odin and the guy was totally unaffected. This is just a spite thread.
[QUOTE=10650492]Originally posted by Allankles
PC Superman could smash skyfathers, hell post crisis Supes has competed with skyfather level beings.
As far as Odin goes, if not for his ability with pure magic, PC Superman would smash him too. [/QUOTE
thats pretty much what i said no magic and odin is toast, supes is physical strength and thats all. People like to compare supes strength to odins oh yeah of coarse hes stronger. Now lets compare supes magicical abilities to odin.
Oh wait he has nothing.
More to comics then brawlers folks =) I dont care how strong you are.
magic > strength any day of the week and there is a way to get around the speed factor batman has proven that.
Odin wins over and over and over and over agin. unless he does something stupid.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Dude. By PC Superman's own words they only seal the warp that bridges the two worlds/dimensions/universes... whatever it is. Cmon man. They essentially seal the portal which connects the two. That's it. You make it sound like PC Superman looked at a big bang explosion and bathed it in heat vision, which nullified the big bang explosion. None of that happens at all in the scan you provided. Lame.
PC supes said the raw energy was enough to create a universe, him and PG sealed it way which is a big feat considering the type of power were dealing with here. The energy output is immense no matter how u look at it, Thanos best feat was pushing Galactus a couple of football fields with little to no affect.
Dude.
In. His. Own. Words. They are only sealing the warp that bridges these two worlds. It's in black and white! He says it himself! Is PC Superman lying or something?! Look for yourself:
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Precrisis/?action=view¤t=maaldor14.jpg
How the hell am I spinning this scan? I didn't even make a single comment about PC Superman vs Thanos at all. I was just incredulous at this part of your original post:
Originally posted by The Great GalenWhich is so preposterously far off what actually happens in this scan:
... PC Supes heat vision that sealed away and cancelled a"big bang"....
It's PC Superman AND PC Power Girl. And it's also them sealing away only the warp that bridges these two worlds. He didn't cancel a "big bang" with his heat vision at all. Dude. I know there is a general predilection for overstating Superman related feats throughout these forums. But seriously. Lame.
Originally posted by Ouallada
So the rules do not state that Thor can godblast anytime but do state that a forum fight implies that Thor is "in character", where "in character" references the fact that Thor has fewer than a handful of godblasts in hundreds of appearances? Your retraction is accepted. No worries.We have already established that performance levels are inconsistent. Fighting in character and CIS rules cover the portion on using godblasts 10000/10 times. It isn't a case of whether high feats are PIS, it is a case of averages, and whether or not a character is in bloodlust, the latter pertaining to "in character" and CIS stipulations.
Philosophy? I believe that you refer to logic. It obviously is not impossible to look at a character using averages. This is why characters like Superman and SS are high heralds by concensus, even though they both have feats higher AND lower than that level. In fact, I would postulate that your take on things is logically worse off, because it bumps every character up the power scale, and effectively argues high feats, not characters.
You are confusing PIS and CIS here, or rather taking confusing what I am saying about them. PIS refers to a story-driven incident, or writer stupidity. A character having three similar high end feats may exclude them from PIS on a case-by-case basis, but does not exclude CIS and the "in character" stipulation at all.
SS searching a planet does not necessarily mean he used only physical means, but the fact that there was some physical search is undeniable. The fact that he claims that the search was thorough can also mean that he actually searched the planet more than once. You must be talking about the instance with grandmaster. If so, I would be interested in seeing where your calculations came from. SS has also been to have travelled "light years in seconds". None of your conjectures have proven that SS takes seconds to hit light speed, and none have shown than Superman can do better on a consistent basis.
But guess what? You have shown no examples of Superman going faster than SS, when the majority of his appearances have been below light speed.
Again, being in character has nothing to do with the chance that a character will do something. Being in character implies that it is possible, by that character's character, for him to do something. And by it being possible along with the character having to fight at his best
forces Thor to godblast in every fight if that is a feasible way to win.
SS arguably hit light speed and beyond in under a second once. I challenge you to show me where he did it more than that one time. Use no speculation, but raw fact that SS reached light speed or beyond in under a second. There are countless examples where SS didn't reach light speed in the first second or two. I am not saying that he has never done it. I'm just saying that by your logic he can't do it for it would contradict the 99% of his entire history. So you or no one else can cherry pick that specific feat to prove a point (according to you).
And lastly it is impossible to use averages. No one ever in the history of this forum says "since X done both A and C then X will do B (the inbetween) in this fight". No, people use specific feats to back up their claims. People show that X did Y to prove that they can do it in the forum battle.
Originally posted by Ouallada
You do realise that you are attempting to use physics to explain comicbook science? Even so, here is how Webster defines "physical": having material existence : perceptible especially through the senses and subject to the laws of nature; everything physical is measurable by weight, motion, and resistance.What does that tell us? Onslaught's armour was physical. Unless you could explain how an energy construct could physically affect other entities using real physics, the action was physical as far as that word is defined.
Yes, you were mistaken.
There are many definitions to nearly all words. You just can't pick out the definition that suits you to define a word. You just can't pick a dictionary to do so either. For all dictionaries are not accurate.
We must use the same definition and use several dictionaries (if we still don't see eye to eye).
The dictionary I read from says "having to do with the material
world". And "material" means "having to do with matter". But we all know that matter is made up of atoms or at least subatomic particles right?
Do you know that light itself has momentum and can push and move something physically? But according to the definition of physics light has no mass and thus it isn't made out of matter. Gravity and Magnetism are other examples too.
