Originally posted by Devil King
The feeling is mutual. I like most of your other user names too.I'm sure attempting to insult me is a comfortable hiding place when your arguments fail and your beliefs are dismissed so easily.
On top of all that, everyone here knows who I am, despite the name change. I've had the same user name for four years. Unlike some people here, I don't create a new name everytime I walk past a new computer.
I don't have any other user names.
Man, are you grouchy.
🙁
🙂
😎
Originally posted by Devil King
Also, you seem to have forgotten to answer my question.Which [b]literal
verse of the bibles states: In order for God to have created physical matter He must occupy a dimension that is not comprised of physical matter.You can distract from the fact that you have no answer by pointing out the fact that I have a new user name. But, can you actually answer the question? [/B]
Understand it this way: God is a Spirit, then use a little deductive reasoning. Could the universe (which is composed of matter which is physical) come from a Source that is physical? No, because then matter would have created matter. There is no possible way that matter (which occupies a point on the space-time continuum) could come from matter. Case in point, chickens must precede eggs because eggs don't lay chickens. Well, similarly this universe could not have come from matter because the Bible states that God created it and God is a Spirit. Therefore, God exists outside of this physical, three-dimensional universe in order to be the Cause of it. So, my chapter and verse for what I have affirmed is John 4:24.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Understand it this way: God is a Spirit, [b]then use a little deductive reasoning. Could the universe (which is composed of matter which is physical) come from a Source that is physical? No, because then matter would have created matter. There is no possible way that matter (which occupies a point on the space-time continuum) could come from matter. Case in point, chickens must precede eggs because eggs don't lay chickens. Well, similarly this universe could not have come from matter because the Bible states that God created it and God is a Spirit. Therefore, God exists outside of this physical, three-dimensional universe in order to be the Cause of it. So, my chapter and verse for what I have affirmed is John 4:24.John 4:24
God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” [/B]
Understand that nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes, whob.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Understand that nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes, whob.
Except God. You see Adam_PoE God is not bound by any of the laws of the universe (i.e. The Fundamental
Forces of Nature, Newton's Laws of Motion, The Law of Cause and Effect (as such), or the Laws of Thermodynamics. Those laws are soley specific to this physical universe. But God does not occupy the physical universe; therefore, He is exempt from its laws. Actually, God is exempt from this those laws because He set them in motion. God exists (or lives) in another dimension that is referred to as spirit or the spirit. But spiritual things are not at all bound by any of those natural laws.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Except God. You see Adam_PoE God is not bound by any of the laws of the universe (i.e. The Fundamental
Forces of Nature, Newton's Laws of Motion, The Law of Cause and Effect (as such), or the Laws of Thermodynamics. Those laws are soley specific to this physical universe. But God does not occupy the physical universe; therefore, He is exempt from its laws. Actually, God is exempt from this those laws because He set them in motion. God exists (or lives) in another dimension that is referred to as spirit or the spirit. But spiritual things are not at all bound by any of those natural laws.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Understand that nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes, whob.
Originally posted by Bardock42
That is an axiom you decided to be that way...it is not set, one might very well imagine it to be different.
"Something that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes" is a positive claim. You can imagine that to be true, but can you substantiate it? If not, then do not speak.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am not making a positive claim, you are. Either substantiate it or shut up.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Understand that nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes, whob.
You claim that,
"...nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes...."
What scientific law does this rest on?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You claim that,"...nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes...."
What scientific law does this rest on?
No, you are claiming that something that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes. I am simply stating that it cannot.
You are making a positive claim; my claim is a negation of the positive claim that you are making.
Either substantiate your claim, or do not post.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, you are claiming that something that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes. I am simply stating that it cannot.You are making a positive claim; my claim is a negation of the positive claim that you are making.
Either substantiate your claim, or do not post.
Understand it this way: God is a Spirit, then use a little deductive reasoning. Could the universe (which is composed of matter which is physical) come from a Source that is physical? No, because then matter would have created matter. There is no possible way that matter (which occupies a point on the space-time continuum) could come from matter. Case in point, chickens must precede eggs because eggs don't lay chickens. Well, similarly this universe could not have come from matter because the Bible states that God created it and God is a Spirit. Therefore, God exists outside of this physical, three-dimensional universe in order to be the Cause of it. So, my chapter and verse for what I have affirmed is John 4:24.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Devil King
I'm sorry, where does that literally say: In order for God to have created physical matter He must occupy a dimension that is not comprised of physical matter.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive[/QUOTE]
Understand it this way: God is a Spirit, then use a little deductive reasoning. Could the universe (which is composed of matter which is physical) come from a Source that is physical? No, because then matter would have created matter. There is no possible way that matter (which occupies a point on the space-time continuum) could come from matter. Case in point, chickens must precede eggs because eggs don't lay chickens. Well, similarly this universe could not have come from matter because the Bible states that God created it and God is a Spirit. Therefore, God exists outside of this physical, three-dimensional universe in order to be the Cause of it. So, my chapter and verse for what I have affirmed is John 4:24.John 4:24
God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Understand it this way: God is a Spirit, [b]then use a little deductive reasoning. Could the universe (which is composed of matter which is physical) come from a Source that is physical? No, because then matter would have created matter. There is no possible way that matter (which occupies a point on the space-time continuum) could come from matter. Case in point, chickens must precede eggs because eggs don't lay chickens. Well, similarly this universe could not have come from matter because the Bible states that God created it and God is a Spirit. Therefore, God exists outside of this physical, three-dimensional universe in order to be the Cause of it. So, my chapter and verse for what I have affirmed is John 4:24.John 4:24
God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” [/B]
This presumes that matter "came from somewhere," when it is possible that matter has simply always existed.
Moreover, even if we presume that matter came from a non-physical source, it does prove that this non-physical source is god.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive[/QUOTE]
I don't see where it says dimensions or physical matter. I see the word spirit. I see the word god. I see the word worship. But nowhere do I see the terms physical, dimension or must.
If you're wondering what my point is in all of this, it's your use of the term literal word of god. More over, that isn't the word of god, but the observations of one of his worshippers.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This presumes that matter "came from somewhere," when it is possible that matter has simply always existed.Moreover, even if we presume that matter came from a non-physical source, it does prove that this non-physical source is god.
Did you mean to say that this does not prove that this non-physical source is God?
Then what other explanation can you provide for who or what is the source of matter?
Besides, aren't you presuming that it is possible that matter has always existed? This back and forth discussion must end somewhere. I believe that my premise is more tenable. The possibility that matter has always existed or that its source is anything other than an adequate Cause like God just isn't maintainable or defensible. Adequate cause precedes every effect. For example, the bridge didn't break because a kangaroo jumped up and down on it (that is not adequate cause to make it collapse). This universe functions according to laws that are measurable, predictable, mathematically precise, and empirically testable. Matter is simply an effect of a cause just as everything else in this universe is. You are an effect of a cause (your biological parents), your parents are an effect of a cause (their biological parents), the matter in your stomach is an effect of a cause (the food that you have ingested), the matter in your home (the furniture and other items) are an effect of a cause (someone put it there at some point in time), the automobile that you drive is an effect of a cause (its manufacturer)--everything material functions that way. Why should this be any different for the Earth, sun, stars, and other things that we observe in the physical universe? Do all laws suddenly cease to hold with reference to the universe and its origin, the origin of the earth, or the origin of life? Well then what caused these well-defined, well-established laws all of a sudden to cease to apply to those things, but continue to apply in life on earth now? Does this make any rational, logical sense to you? The very thought is absurd to me. So, all matter and life came from somewhere. It does not require a PhD in physics and biology to understand this. Don't believe me? Bring a pet kitten, bird, rabbit, or puppy home to a child and see what happens. That child will want to know where that pet came from. It is amazing that even an uneducated child has enough common sense to know this (not that you do not I am just making that point). So to presume (even in a debate) that matter has always existed is preposterous because we know that nothing material has always existed because material things come from something else. But here is the kicker: God is not composed of matter (remember: God is a Spirit); therefore, it is possible for Him to be exempt from this law of cause and effect. God occupies the spirit world and it functions according to a higher law: the law of faith, love, life, righteousness, holiness, kindness, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no time (nor consciousness of time) in the spirit. It is a totally different dimension. Its laws supersede all natural laws.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Did you mean to say that this does [B]not prove that this non-physical source is God?Then what other explanation can you provide for who or what is the source of matter?
Besides, aren't you presuming that it is possible that matter has always existed? This back and forth discussion must end somewhere. I believe that my premise is more tenable. The possibility that matter has always existed or that its source is anything other than an adequate Cause like God just isn't maintainable or defensible. Adequate cause precedes every effect. For example, the bridge didn't break because a kangaroo jumped up and down on it (that is not adequate cause to make it collapse). This universe functions according to laws that are measurable, predictable, mathematically precise, and empirically testable. Matter is simply an effect of a cause just as everything else in this universe is. You are an effect of a cause (your biological parents), your parents are an effect of a cause (their biological parents), the matter in your stomach is an effect of a cause (the food that you have ingested), the matter in your home (the furniture and other items) are an effect of a cause (someone put it there at some point in time), the automobile that you drive is an effect of a cause (its manufacturer)--everything material functions that way. Why should this be any different for the Earth, sun, stars, and other things that we observe in the physical universe? Do all laws suddenly cease to hold with reference to the universe and its origin, the origin of the earth, or the origin of life? Well then what caused these well-defined, well-established laws all of a sudden to cease to apply to those things, but continue to apply in life on earth now? Does this make any rational, logical sense to you? The very thought is absurd to me. So, all matter and life came from somewhere. It does not require a PhD in physics and biology to understand this. Don't believe me? Bring a pet kitten, bird, rabbit, or puppy home to a child and see what happens. That child will want to know where that pet came from. It is amazing that even an uneducated child has enough common sense to know this (not that you do not I am just making that point). So to presume (even in a debate) that matter has always existed is preposterous because we know that nothing material has always existed because material things come from something else. But here is the kicker: God is not composed of matter (remember: God is a Spirit); therefore, it is possible for Him to be exempt from this law of cause and effect. God occupies the spirit world and it functions according to a higher law: the law of faith, love, life, righteousness, holiness, kindness, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no time (nor consciousness of time) in the spirit. It is a totally different dimension. Its laws supersede all natural laws. [/B]
^ This is a tautology.
Originally posted by Devil KingI don't see where it says dimensions or physical matter. I see the word spirit. I see the word god. I see the word worship. But nowhere do I see the terms physical, dimension or must.
If you're wondering what my point is in all of this, it's your use of the term [b]literal word of god
. More over, that isn't the word of god, but the observations of one of his worshippers. [/B]
The sense of what is written in the Bible is what should be taken literally unless the context suggests otherwise. The Bible says that God is a Spirit which implies that God is not flesh. That is why I repeatedly wrote that you must use deductive reasoning based on the Scriptures.
God presents many things in His Word for our learning and instruction that must be taught for us to truly grasp and comprehend. The Word of God must be taught. What I was doing was teaching you some things that are based on the Bible. I was not providing you with a verbatim reference as such, but with a premise and starting point that could be expounded. Well, what does it mean to teach? To teach means to
Main Entry: teach
Pronunciation: 'tEch
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): taught /'tot/; teach·ing
Etymology: Middle English techen to show, instruct, from Old English t[AE]can; akin to Old English tAcn sign -- more at TOKEN
transitive verb
1 a : to cause to know something <taught them a trade> b : to cause to know how <is teaching me to drive> c : to accustom to some action or attitude <teach students to think for themselves> d : to cause to know the disagreeable consequences of some action <I'll teach you to come home late>
2 : to guide the studies of
3 : to impart the knowledge of <teach algebra>
4 a : to instruct by precept, example, or experience b : to make known and accepted <experience teaches us our limitations>
5 : to conduct instruction regularly in <teach school>
intransitive verb : to provide instruction : act as a teacher
usage see LEARN
synonyms TEACH, INSTRUCT, EDUCATE, TRAIN, DISCIPLINE, SCHOOL mean to cause to acquire knowledge or skill. TEACH applies to any manner of imparting information or skill so that others may learn <taught us a lot about our planet>. INSTRUCT suggests methodical or formal teaching <instructs raw recruits in military drill>. EDUCATE implies development of the mind <more things than formal schooling serve to educate a person>. TRAIN stresses instruction and drill with a specific end in view <trained foreign pilots to operate the new aircraft>. DISCIPLINE implies training in habits of order and precision <a disciplined mind>. SCHOOL implies training or disciplining especially in what is hard to master <schooled the horse in five gaits>.
Jesus told a man named Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This is a premise that must be expounded for Nicodemus to understand. Similarly, when I state that God is a Spirit (based on the Bible), this is a premise that can be expounded. The Bible states that God created the Heavens and the earth. Also, the Bible states that God is a Spirit; therefore, it is safe to conclude (using deductive reasoning) that a Spirit created matter and life. That Spirit appears to have existed before the matter and life that it created. So then it is logical to conclude that matter comes from the spiritual world (that is where matter came from). It did not come from matter, it came from Spirit. Well this Spirit (i.e. God) must have existed or occupied another dimension that is not on the material, space-time continuum. This is pure logic. Do you follow me Devil King? You seem to keep harping on what you don't literally see in the Bible without understanding the reasoning that has logically devolved--deductively--to this point to support what I affirm. Do I believe that the Bible should be taken literally unless the context suggests otherwise--yes. Does everything that is taught from the Bible have a literal, word-for-word expression in the Bible--no, but that does not mean that it cannot be deduced. For example, the Bible states that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Question: do I need a literal, verbatim verse of Scripture that states, "God has preexisted all life and all matter" for me to understand that He had to have in order to be the Creator of it all? Case in point, your parents had to--absolute, imperative necessity--preexist you in order to bring you into the world. Can you see this Devil King?