Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So then there's no such thing as crap wine.
God didn't hand down the guide to good wine. All of the standards are based upon wide agreement/convention and nothing else.
What do YOU mean, when you say..."I think this song sucks"
Different things depending upon which song it is.
To him, wide agreement is a sign that something is fact and true (Despite him thinking fact and truth are separate.). So that's the problem with coming at him from that angle.
Yet, everyone in any debate about this. disagreeing, that doesn't point to anything, of course not.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So then there's no such thing as crap wine.
There isn't, unless you can prove that my taste buds are incorrect.
Better yet, why don't you stick to discussing music? I realise you know nothing Mr. Melodies, but try.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I like this quote...classic
It's true, hence the above reply.
-AC
Personally, I don't like LDN by Lily Allen. I think it sounds very boring, very dull and very false. It doesn't sound genuine and I really don't enjoy listening to it.
Now, you would attempt to tell me that despite that, it's an objectively good song. Then if I asked for you to prove it, you'd say "I can't.".
-AC
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Oh...so you do think certain songs suck. What exactly sucks about it then...what is bad about a particular song that you don't like?Curious.
No offense but this is getting a bit ludicrous. I don't even know what your point is. You haven't provided any evidence for this mysterious objective standard at all, other than making a poll. Which, ironically, is the exact opposite of what you should be doing to prove your point since it would be a logical fallacy otherwise (argumentum ad populum--if many believe it is so, then it is so).
So, I'll answer your question but I think for all of my responses in this thread you need to start providing support for you position or just let the whole thing go.
One example of a song I think sucks is "Come With Me" by P.Diddy. I think it sucks because it felt like Jimmy Page was just trying to cash in with the Godzilla soundtrack and by collaborating with P.Diddy who was very big at the time.
Originally posted by Ytse
One example of a song I think sucks is "Come With Me" by P.Diddy. I think it sucks because it felt like Jimmy Page was just trying to cash in with the Godzilla soundtrack and by collaborating with P.Diddy who was very big at the time.
So you could say it was an uninspired attempt at music writing...it was profit driven song-writing on the part of Page.
Right?
...I'm also thinking it had a lot to do with the other end as well. Even on Diddy's part, it was blatantly taking a classic rock riff (which is typical of a lot of the unoriginality in his songs made using 80's samples and the like), and basically using that to drive the tune throughout most of the song...
...but also, to blow it up with over-production, really bad/corny/wanna be gangsta-rap, and audacious lyrics like "Come with Me".
Right?
Are those decent sounding reasons as to why you'd say this song could suck?
Stop loading the question.
It's entirely possible he just didn't like the way it sounded. Your average music fan just likes or dislikes tunes to nod heads to, or listen to, they don't think about the intricate ins and outs of songwriting.
Your argument is flawed. Answer MY post:
Personally, I don't like LDN by Lily Allen. I think it sounds very boring, very dull and very false. It doesn't sound genuine and I really don't enjoy listening to it.
What do you say to that?
-AC
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Are those decent sounding reasons as to why you'd say this song could suck?
Sure. But just because two people, or ten people, or ten thousand people agree that has no bearing on whether it's objectively bad or good. As I said that logic is ultimately fallacious since it relys upon aggregate opinion rather than empirical observation.
Right...I understand your stance. So now with this song that you've said sucks...it’s just your opinion that it is uninspired, unoriginal, contrived, corny, over-produced, etc…
Someone else might very well say “Come with Me” is a good song…and say that they don’t feel it’s overproduced, corny, contrived, uninspired, etc…and that it doesn’t suck for the reasons you gave. So, does your opinion of labelling it a sucky song have any real significance in face of this?
How exactly does saying "it sucks" or "it's crap" mean anything in the face of someone else who might not think it sucks or it's crap?
Why does it have to? This is the point you're missing or ignoring.
Do you not accept the fact that there doesn't have to be a definitive conclusion beyond "Well I like how it sounds, you don't." or vice versa?
You're too hung up on the idea that there has to be an all-encompassing point, and there doesn't. We're not all out to try proving each other wrong, you are the one holding that stance.
Your opinion of Lily Allen's music being good means nothing to me when I say it's bad, you're not right, neither am I, but neither of us need to be, because opinions are just that, personal beliefs. If they could be proven, they'd be objective.
-AC
...and how about you Ytse?
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Right...I understand your stance. So now with this song that you've said sucks...it’s just your opinion that it is uninspired, unoriginal, contrived, corny, over-produced, etc…Someone else might very well say “Come with Me†is a good song…and say that they don’t feel it’s overproduced, corny, contrived, uninspired, etc…and that it doesn’t suck for the reasons you gave. So, does your opinion of labelling it a sucky song have any real significance in face of this?
How exactly does saying "it sucks" or "it's crap" mean anything in the face of someone else who might not think it sucks or it's crap?
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I just thought I'd post this from the other thread, just 'cause it's...oh...kinda neat...It started with me pretending I love Creed...
---
Regarding Creed....thank you...thank you...and thank you.
Originally posted by chillmeistergen
[B]I think they're shit, music's objective and all that so they are shit. Definitely.Originally posted by Solo
Good one.Originally posted by manorastroman
don't stop now. you are riffing, man. i mean, you are ON A ROLL.Creed are one of my all time most hated bands...I despise every note, word and sound that comes out of this group. They are horrible in a countless number of ways.
But...I don't think that's what you guys meant...because you're just saying you personally don't like them and that they really don't appeal to you in the slightest...not that they're actually bad...'cause there's no such thing as that right?
Anyways...
...thank you for helping me once and for all prove my point...
...thank you for admitting in front of everyone that you don't "actually" think Creed are "actually" bad, but that they simply don't "do it" for you and that's all...
...and finally, thank you for proving to everyone on this board that when you say "Creed sucks" it means absolutley nothing...because it's just your opinion...and you could be wrong...so then Creed might not suck.
That's right people...Creed don't suck. Whatever you say chillmeistergen, Solo, and manorastroman. You really know what's up. [/B]
You are not good with sarcasm, are you?
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
OOOOMMMMMGGGGBUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOOD MUSIC!!!!
YOU SAID SO YOURSELF!
RIGHT???
UNBELIEVABLE!
Do you think there IS good music now?...(meaning there would also have to be an objective standard that exists to prove whether it's good or not?)
...it seems you were saying there isn't objectively any music that sucks.
You ubelievable idiot.
There is no such thing as absolutely good music.
There is FACTUALLY such a thing as good music in a person's opinion.
What can you not get about that?
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
How on earth is that stipulation silly?If you were to somehow make a claim that music is "good" or "bad" you would HAVE TO have an objective standard with which to measure it by...would you not? Otherwise...what would it be good (or bad) compared to?
And it what you DID say was...
"...Whether they suck or not, it's not a matter of objectivity"
So, what if I say Britney Spears is better music to me than Johnny Cash, because she is prettier.
Is that an objective standard? Are you saying it is true, because I said it? Or is it just my subjective judgement according to one criteria, you would probably never apply?