As requested - The argument about crap music...and a (fair) poll

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Dude. 'Cmon.

When I asked...

-"How exactly does saying that song "sucks" or "it's crap" MEAN ANYTHING about a song ACTUALLY being crap, in the face of someone else who might NOT think it sucks or it's crap?"

YOU SAID

-"It does not."

Right? And then you also said...

-"you think the other person is an idiot for not seeing what you feel is the beauty in a song or the shittiness in another"

So...combine the two:

Saying there is "shittiness" (in place of the word "crap"😉 doesn't MEAN ANYTHING (according to you..."It does not"😉 about a song ACTUALLY being crap (or shitty).

THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE SAID...YOU CANNOT DENY THIS SO FAR.

So...therefore, you are thinking "the other person is an idiot" for not clueing in, getting, understanding, or seeing something that...ISN'T EVEN ACTUALLY SHITTY? Something that is ONLY SHITTY TO YOU?

That's what you do?

oh boy!!!

How is it you you contiue not to understand my post. Did you not see where I said "might"? No?

Now, why don't you just take what I say instead of what you would like me to say.

You said "might"? You're asking me to look for a single word?

WHAT?

EDIT: That's all you could come up with in your moment of defeat then?

That I didn't see the word "might".

Right.

Dude I just totally proved you wrong. You say something sucks...but have admitted that something CAN'T suck.

The ONLY reason you're not getting this is because it's convention for you to say stuff like "this sucks", and you don't want to let it go. But the thing is, you can't admit to yourself (even though have to me) that what you're saying when you say that stuff doesn't mean ANYTHING if you are someone who thinks there is no objectively good music.

You've said it yourself...it means nothing.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You said "might"? You're asking me to look for a single word?

WHAT?

EDIT: That's all you could come up with in your moment of defeat then?

That I didn't see the word "might".

Right.

Dude I just totally proved you wrong. You say something sucks...but have admitted that something CAN'T suck.

The ONLY reason you're not getting this is because it's convention for you to say that stuff and you don't want to let it go.

It is a most defining word in my argumentation, do I just read the words that I feel support my side in your posts?

No, I read everything you say.

You moron.

Still haven't found it...WHAT are you talking about?

...and I added a couple more sentences to the post above.

Dude.

The ONLY THING you could POSSIBLY MEAN when you say that stuff is "I don't enjoy it...it doesn't appeal to me...I really hate it"

You CAN'T mean anything else...I'm sorry. Because as you said..saying "it's crap" does not mean anything bout something ACTUALLY being crap. So what are you left with...just expressing how it appeals to you.

Hey Bardock. Here's an idea...how about instead of quoting my posts all the time (which are just 2 inches above the quote you make) you actually show what you're talking about with this "might" word and how it's so defining in your arguement!!

...or, maybe you're not doing it because I've just covered every single angle to show the faulty reasoning you're using...

Thought so

Originally posted by Bardock42
Horrible taste in the other person's opinion. I thought I made that blatantly clear.

And yeah, if you like something better you think the other person is an idiot for not seeing what you feel is the beauty in a song or the shittiness in another. Basically, you might know that there are no absolute criteria, but you are very much of the opinion that your own opinion is the only opinion that actually counts.

See how I didn't say "I think everyone that has a different taste in music than I do is an idiot"?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Still haven't found it...WHAT are you talking about?

...and I added a couple more sentences to the post above.

Dude.

The ONLY THING you could POSSIBLY MEAN when you say that stuff is "I don't enjoy it...it doesn't appeal to me...I really hate it"

You CAN'T mean anything else...I'm sorry. Because as you said..saying "it's crap" does not mean anything bout something ACTUALLY being crap. So what are you left with...just expressing how it appeals to you.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So, does your opinion of labelling it a sucky song have any real significance in face of this?

Sure. It's significant because it's how I genuinely feel. But not because I have an insight into some universal truth about music.

Epibites, you have difficulty understanding simple reasoning, return to oft-explained points, alter your argument, come to conclusions about what Bardock 'was really saying' when he has said exactly that since the beginning (making it obvious that you never understood a word of it).

You are seriously tiresome. Just reading your struggles to comprehend posts that are very clear, and then ejaculating an idiotic reply is painful.

You try to guide Bardock through some kind of Socratic method only to end up confounding your own argument. Literally pathetic. Everyone else reading knew what he meant, knew what he would answer; knew where you would go wrong.

You need to give up.

I wonder if anything new has been posted.

Oh, nope. Just EP continuing to ignore and post.

Still haven't replied to me by the way.

I wonder where your opinion on "Mass consensus suggests something." is now.

-AC

The thing is...I've been stringning people along to come to the conclusion themselves...but if I MUST spell it out...

------

Ytse said that there is no such thing as crap wine...he said that only if God came down and said "THIS IS GOOD WINE" would he accept there is an objectively good wine.

He did say this...and everyone seems to totally agree.

So again...there is NO SUCH THING as "good" or "crap" wine.

NOW...as YOU HAVE SAID...there is NO SUCH THING as "good" and "crap" music is there? It doesn't ACTUALLY, OBJECTIVELY exist, does it? NO ONE can ACTUALLY say "this song sucks" and have it mean anything about the song ACTUALLY sucking in face of the next guy's opinion who thinks that song is good.

I asked Bardock this...How exactly does saying that song "sucks" or "it's crap" MEAN ANYTHING about a song ACTUALLY being crap, in the face of someone else who might NOT think it sucks or it's crap? [/QUOTE]
And he directly answered

Originally posted by Bardock42
It does not.

So then again...I ASK YOU...WHY IN THE WORLD would you say "this song sucks" or "this music is crap" (apart from ONLY expressing that it doesn't appeal to you or that you really, really hate it)?

Because that'd be like saying this "wine is crap" or "this wine totally sucks".

SO WHAT ARE YOU EVEN SAYING THERE? WHAT POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE? You are DEFINITELTY not saying anything about the WINE ITSELF are you? YOU PROVED THIS YOURSELVES...The ONLY thing you're saying is that again it doesn't appeal to you or that you really, really hate it". There's nothing that actually SUCKS about it.

But THAT'S THING then you still get people like AC and others who maintain that Lily Allen's music sucks...BUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT...makes fun of someone who likes it...AS IF THERE WOULD BE ANYTHING TO "ACTUALLY" MAKE FUN OF.

He's totally confused in his reasoning and as to why and what he means when he says "this sucks". If the only thing he can possibly mean is "Lily doesn't appeal to my taste", then WHAT IN THE WORLD is there to ACTUALLY make fun of?

AND I PROVED this again by pretending I liked Creed in the "Best of '00" thread and people joked about how I thought they're good.

But again, if these people think they're is NO SUCH THING as objectively good and crap music (which they seem to claim they do), then what's the point of their ridicule as if it's me not getting/understanding/picking up on something that isn't even ACTUALLY crap? (but only crap to them). So...I'm not picking up on something that (accordng to you) isn't ACTUALLY there...makes A LOT OF sense...really worth the ridicule...and even really worth saying "this song's crap"...oh yeah!

I could see them ridiculing someone (or as Bardock says...calling them idiots) if there ACTUALLY WAS crappy music that someone failed to detect...and that person could I guess look like a fool for liking a truly crap band that makes truly crap music...but YOU yourselves have said that saying "this is crap" doesn't SAY ANYTHING about it ACTAULLY BEING crap in face of another person's opposing opinion. So what would I have failed to actually detect? NOTHING

So YOU peple make fun of others not agreeing about something being "crap"...for NOTHING.

BUT SOME PEOPLE DO NOT GET THIS. They don't UNDERSTAND what they're really saying when they say this stuff. And it's because they want to hold on to their convention of saying "this band/music/song sucks" and somehow have it ACTUALLY say SOMETHING...which it really DOESN'T...(according to their view of objectively good music not existing)...apart from only "This music really, really doesn't appeal to me". But people don't think that's what they mean when they say this stuff...they think they're actually saying something about something.

AC does it...(too much to even directly point out)

The three people that made fun of me for liking Creed do it.

and Bardock42 does it...

Originally posted by Bardock42
And yeah, if you like something better you think the other person is an idiot for not seeing what you feel is the beauty in a song or the shittiness in another.

So the thing is, I've just worried a bunch of people who say stuff like "this is crap" and think it means more than it actually does.

According to how I view music, I can make a statement like that and have it make sense (albeit in my own way)...but YOU CAN'T have it make sense (in your own way)...it contradicts your very belief regarding music.

So don't I ever hear stuff like this coming out of you...

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is FACTUALLY such a thing as good music in a person's opinion.

Unbelievable.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES

So then again...I ASK YOU...WHY IN THE WORLD would you say "this song sucks" or "this music is crap" (apart from ONLY expressing that it doesn't appeal to you or that you really, really hate it)?

Apart from that, nothing.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The thing is...I've been stringning people along to come to the conclusion themselves...but if I MUST spell it out...

You've been trying to get people to come to YOUR incorrect conclusion, you idiot.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Ytse said that there is no such thing as crap wine...he said that only if God came down and said "THIS IS GOOD WINE" would he accept there is an objectively good wine.

He did say this...and everyone seems to totally agree.

So again...there is NO SUCH THING as "good" or "crap" wine.

There isn't, outside of subjectivity.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
NOW...as YOU HAVE SAID...there is NO SUCH THING as "good" and "crap" music is there? It doesn't ACTUALLY, OBJECTIVELY exist, does it? NO ONE can ACTUALLY say "this song sucks" and have it mean anything about the song ACTUALLY sucking in face of the next guy's opinion who thinks that song is good.

No, it's always going to be subjective. People can individually think a song sucks or rules, but it doesn't mean anything outside of opinion.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So then again...I ASK YOU...WHY IN THE WORLD would you say "this song sucks" or "this music is crap" (apart from ONLY expressing that it doesn't appeal to you or that you really, really hate it)?

Because that'd be like saying this "wine is crap" or "this wine totally sucks".

So we're supposed to not have personal opinions, which is all there is, just because you feel it's pointless in the face of opposing opinions? You're an idiot.

You believe there has to be a point or a reason, there doesn't. One person believes one thing subjectively, the other believes their own subjective belief, that's it. It doesn't have to mean anything beyond "I think this is good/bad.".

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
SO WHAT ARE YOU EVEN SAYING THERE? WHAT POINT ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE? You are DEFINITELTY not saying anything about the WINE ITSELF are you? YOU PROVED THIS YOURSELVES...The ONLY thing you're saying is that again it doesn't appeal to you or that you really, really hate it". There's nothing that actually SUCKS about it.

I can list reasons, and did, why I think Lily Allen's music sucks. You may like those things, it's all subjective. You don't understand, you genuinely do not.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But THAT'S THING then you still get people like AC and others who maintain that Lily Allen's music sucks...BUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT...makes fun of someone who likes it...AS IF THERE WOULD BE ANYTHING TO "ACTUALLY" MAKE FUN OF.

I don't care that you like it, I don't like it. You cannot prove it's good, it's not objectively good, it doesn't objectively suck. I think it sucks, you think it's good, it's all opinion.

My reasons for DISLIKING it may be reasons someone likes it, it's all subjective.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
He's totally confused in his reasoning and as to why and what he means when he says "this sucks". If the only thing he can possibly mean is "Lily doesn't appeal to my taste", then WHAT IN THE WORLD is there to ACTUALLY make fun of?

Either reply TO me or not at all, don't talk as if there are loads of people reading your posts that agree. Everyone disagrees with you, EP. Don't say "He.", you have no back up.

It's also called a joke, there's nothing wrong with you liking anything you like, but I make fun of anyone who likes music I think is shit, it doesn't mean it's actually shit. I make fun of Fall Out Boy fans.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
AND I PROVED this again by pretending I liked Creed in the "Best of '00" thread and people joked about how I thought they're good.

Because the general opinion here is that they're a shit band.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But again, if these people think they're is NO SUCH THING as objectively good and crap music (which they seem to claim they do), then what's the point of their ridicule as if it's me not getting/understanding/picking up on something that isn't even ACTUALLY crap? (but only crap to them). So...I'm not picking up on something that (accordng to you) isn't ACTUALLY there...makes A LOT OF sense...really worth the ridicule...and even really worth saying "this song's crap"...oh yeah!

Because it's like anybody ridiculing anything, it's funny to some. It has no bearing on the debate.

Nobody laughs at you for liking Creed because they think Creed are objectively shit, we laugh because we all just happen to have opinions that they are shit.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I could see them ridiculing someone (or as Bardock says...calling them idiots) if there ACTUALLY WAS crappy music that someone failed to detect...and that person could I guess look like a fool for liking a truly crap band that makes truly crap music...but YOU yourselves have said that saying "this is crap" doesn't SAY ANYTHING about it ACTAULLY BEING crap in face of another person's opposing opinion. So what would I have failed to actually detect? NOTHING

What do you mean "failed to detect"? Are you still going on about people being incapable of saying "I like crap."? You're incapable of saying "I am wrong.". You make the CHOICE to say you like crap, it doesn't mean the music is objectively crap, it means you are trying to make your own choices fact. You saying "I like this, but it's crap." doesn't mean it is, it means it's fact that you THINK it is.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So YOU peple make fun of others not agreeing about something being "crap"...for NOTHING.

No, you're just dumb.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
BUT SOME PEOPLE DO NOT GET THIS. They don't UNDERSTAND what they're really saying when they say this stuff. And it's because they want to hold on to their convention of saying "this band/music/song sucks" and somehow have it ACTUALLY say SOMETHING...which it really DOESN'T...(according to their view of objectively good music not existing)...apart from only "This music really, really doesn't appeal to me". But people don't think that's what they mean when they say this stuff...they think they're actually saying something about something.

You're going insane, you're actually losing your sanity.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
AC does it...(too much to even directly point out)

Who are you talking to?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The three people that made fun of me for liking Creed do it.

and Bardock42 does it...

------

So the thing is, I've just worried a bunch of people who say stuff like "this is crap" and think it means more than it actually does.

It means "I think this is crap.", that's all it means. The only thing worrying about you is your mental state.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
According to how I view music, I can make a statement like that and have it make sense (albeit in my own way)...but YOU CAN'T have it make sense (in your own way)...it contradicts your very belief regarding music.

Exactly, you idiot, "In my own way.". That doesn't count. Your own way is wrong, and you're trying to apply it to us.

We can ALL have it make sense to us and to everyone else, you are the only one who doesn't get what we say, why we say it or anything else. I get what Bardock, Ytse, VVD etc say, they get what I say. Everyone who has disagreed with you (Everyone.) understand the idea of opinion, you don't.

You think that because you don't get it, we aren't making sense. You don't think for one second "I just don't get it.".

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
WHAT?

Unbelievable.

Don't understand?

Easy: It's a FACT that I think Prince makes great music. It's not a fact that he makes great music, it's a fact that in my OPINION, he does. It's a fact that I hold a certain opinion, not that the opinion itself is fact.

E.g: It's objectively true that you think Lily Allen makes good music, it's not objectively true that she does make good music though.

Get it? Didn't think so.

-AC

YOU GOT NOTHING AC.

STOP WEASLING OUT LIKE YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO DO ABOUT EVERYTHING.

AC has made fun of me and has called me an idiot for saying "Angels" by Robbie Wiliams is a good song. He has directly balked at my abilites as a judge of good music for saying this is a good song.

What's hilarious about that is...

...first of all the obvious...that his statement doesn't actually mean anything according to what he thinks regarding music...so it's pointless for him to make it...

...but second that this song is actually, truly, a good song. Yes I'm saying this...(and look at the beginning of this thread for the explanation as why I'm saying this). Angels is a good compostion with unique and complex chord progressions, emotion, etc...

But to AC it's just "ANGELS BY ROBBIE WILLIAMS...HEE HEE! How could ANYBODY think that's a good song"

COMPLETELY NO SENSE!

HE'S ALL OVER THE PLACE!

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
YOU GOT NOTHING AC.

STOP WEASLING OUT LIKE YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO DO ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Yes...all of us have nothing and somehow you're still in this debate, winning. That's how it's playing out in your mind.

So you ARE saying things to me that you know YOU are doing, in an attempt to make me tell you "YOU'RE DOING THAT!", tired technique.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
AC has made fun of me and has called me an idiot for saying "Angels" by Robbie Wiliams is a good song. He has directly balked at my abilites as a judge of good music for saying this is a good song.

What's hilarious about that is...

...first of all the obvious...that his statement doesn't actually mean anything according to what he thinks regarding music...so it's pointless for him to make it...

...but second that this song is actually, truly, a good song. Angels is a good compostion with unique and complex chord progressions, emotion, etc...

So? I said I think you're an idiot for calling it a good song, I didn't say you were wrong or right to think that.

Secondly; Not only does the song have NOTHING complex in it at all, but complex chord progressions do not make a song sound good. Dream Theater, as I keep saying, are OUTRAGEOUSLY technically skilled musicians who write complex music, but I think it SOUNDS remarkably boring and useless. We're not discussing technicalities, we're discussing just music, not composition or anything of that sort.

Technical stuff is provable, "good" or "bad" are not.

As for "emotion etc.", every song contains emotion, really. That doesn't make it good. Those things you like are reasons I think it's shit, so you see, it's not objective. Those opinions you hold of the song are not objective. Everything you say about Angels is your opinion, it's not objective.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
But to AC it's just "ANGELS BY ROBBIE WILLIAMS...HEE HEE! How could ANYBODY think that's a good song"

COMPLETELY NO SENSE!

It's true, I don't see how anyone could think it's a good song, as I think it sound deplorably shit, BUT you do like how it sounds, so that's how it is. It's good to you, shit to me.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
HE'S ALL OVER THE PLACE!

Chill out.

And stop saying "He's...", who are you talking to? You're being dumb.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
He has directly balked at my abilites as a judge of good music for saying this is a good song.

How're you using the word "judge" here?

...but second that this song is actually, truly, a good song. Angels is a good compostion with unique and complex chord progressions, emotion, etc...

What does "composition, chord progression, and emotion" have to do with whether a song is good or bad?

I'm just trying to clarify your line of thought here.

I'm curious about that too.

He thinks he has some ability to make objective calls on music because he is idiotic enough to say "I can admit I like crap.".

That doesn't mean it's crap music objectively, it means he's scared to admit he thinks it's good because we think it's crap, Ytse. He wants to be seen as someone with a credible opinion, he wants the best of both worlds; To be considered to have a good opinion, but to like whatever music he wants.

He shouldn't think he has to say a song is crap if he likes it. If he likes the Backstreet Boys and Robbie Williams, he obviously thinks they are good, but out of fear, he says they're crap, so we all (hopefully) think "Oh, he doesn't actually like them, he just likes them, but does think they're crap.".

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES

Dude I just totally proved you wrong. You say something sucks...but have admitted that something CAN'T suck.

Something can "suck" subjectively. However, it can't "suck" objectively.

I've been reacing this thread through the past few pages, and I must agree...You sir, are a full fledged idiot.

OK...ONE MORE TRY

First of all, VVD seems to have agreed with me when I said it means NOTHING when people say "music is crap"...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...when you say "Creed sucks" it means absolutley nothing...because it's just your opinion...and you could be wrong...so then Creed might not suck.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Correct. It means nothing. Let's move on.

Now...someone who doesn't believe there is objectively good/bad music and says "This song is crap" is as ridiculous as doing the following (keeping in mind you people have AGREED there’s no such thing as “good wine” like there’s no such thing as “good music”)...

-“You like that wine? It’s crap!”

-“I can’t believe ANYBODY would like that wine”

-“You’re an IDIOT for liking that wine”.

Now I KNOW…I KNOW that somehow a lot of you will try to weasel out of this one, and it's because you’ve just seen how ridiculous it is when it comes saying this EXACT SAME IDEA, but with wine…

But you still do it with music…you still sound ridiculous, and make ridiculous statements (and again, they’re ridiculous because of what you’re saying you believe regarding no objectively good/bad music) and don’t even realize it because you want your opinion of music to mean something.

WELL IT DOESN’T…NOT with your stance regarding no objectively good/bad music. You sound ridiculous making such a contradictory statement.

The ONLY thing you could mean is "that song/wine doesn't appeal to me...I really, really hate that wine/song).

But someone like AC says he doesn't JUST mean this.

According to AC, saying "this song is crap" SOMEHOW means SOMETHING (apart from the obvious which is "this song doesn't appeal to me"😉...SOMEHOW AC thinks there is logic in saying..."I don't think there's such a thing as crap music."..."I think 'Angels' is crap music".

How...how...HOW CAN ANYONE who has ANY COMMMON SENSE not see how ridiculous a statement that is?

And don't say..."he's just saying it simply doesn't appeal to him"

NO...HE'S NOT. He's making a statement…SOME KIND of statement (although I don't know how considering he believes there is no such thing as good/crap music) that certain music is crap “within his standards or criteria he has” (which are nothing and mean nothing themselves if there’s in fact no such thing as objective quality in music). He's doing the VERY THING he's saying you can't do...and he doesn't realize it because he WANTS there to be something to what he's saying when he says "this is crap"...and then BE ABLE to make fun of others for not realizing how it's “crap”(again...ridiculous logic according to his belief that there isn't even such a thing as bad or good music).

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
OK...ONE MORE TRY

First of all, VVD seems to have agreed with me when I said it means NOTHING when people say "music is crap"...
Right. It means nothing.

Now...someone who doesn't believe there is objectively good/bad music and says "This song is crap" is as ridiculous as doing the following (keeping in mind you people have AGREED there’s no such thing as “good wine” like there’s no such thing as “good music”)...

-“You like that wine? It’s crap!”

-“I can’t believe ANYBODY would like that wine”

-“You’re an IDIOT for liking that wine”.

Now I KNOW…I KNOW that somehow a lot of you will try to weasel out of this one, and it's because you’ve just seen how ridiculous it is when it comes saying this EXACT SAME IDEA, but with wine…

But you still do it with music…you still sound ridiculous, and make ridiculous statements (and again, they’re ridiculous because of what you’re saying you believe regarding no objectively good/bad music) and don’t even realize it because you want your opinion of music to mean something.

WELL IT DOESN’T…NOT with your stance regarding the no objectively good/bad music. You sound ridiculous making such a contradictory statement.

The ONLY thing you could mean is "that song/wine doesn't appeal to me...I really, really hate that wine/song).

I don't get it.

That's what lots of people actually do when talking about wine.

Why is that ridiculous?