As requested - The argument about crap music...and a (fair) poll

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is FACTUALLY such a thing as good music in a person's opinion.

Originally posted by Bardock42
So, what if I say Britney Spears is better music to me than Johnny Cash, because she is prettier.

Is that an objective standard? Are you saying it is true, because I said it? Or is it just my subjective judgement according to one criteria, you would probably never apply?

No, actually forget what I just said.

Yes Bardock, that's my argument. Just saying you like Brinttney because she's pretty warrants an objective standard because it's your opinion against anyone else's.

That's right.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Oh that's a good one...for starters, I myslef haven't even been brave enough to suggest what I'm talking about is "factual" anything. So I'd love to see you explain this one.

You really need to look at the original post...or just stop talking, becuase the questions you're asking are so 2 months ago.

...

Okay, well that's easy, look:

Axioms:

1. I am a person
2. I have an opinion

Assumption: There is factually such a thing as good music in a person's opinion

In my opinion Godspeed You Black Emperor make good music.

=>This opinion exists (2) and I am a person

=> There is at least one person's opinion on something being good music

q.e.d.

I suppose every mathematician in the world would tell you this is correct. Now, if you deny me the right to an opinion or the existance as a person, it becomes unprovable again, but as long as we both agree to that you have to accept that my statement is correct.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
How on earth is that stipulation silly?

If you were to somehow make a claim that music is "good" or "bad" you would HAVE TO have an objective standard with which to measure it by...would you not? Otherwise...what would it be good (or bad) compared to?

And it what you DID say was...

"...Whether they suck or not, it's not a matter of objectivity"

So, what if I say Britney Spears is better music to me than Johnny Cash, because she is prettier.

Is that an objective standard? Are you saying it is true, because I said it? Or is it just my subjective judgement according to one criteria, you would probably never apply?

sub·jec·tive /səbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4. Philosophy. relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.

"Assumption: There is factually such a thing as good music in a person's opinion"???

No there isn't...not according to you!!! There's no such thing. Stop jumping a step!!!

You don't HAVE an opinion on good music because it doesn't exist!

...or do you think it does?...then I will give a line of questioning.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
"Assumption: There is factually such a thing as good music in a person's opinion"???

No there isn't...not according to you!!! There's no such thing. Stop jumping a step!!!

You don't HAVE an opinion on good music because it doesn't exist!

No, there is, that is what I was claiming. God ****ing dammit.

What ****ing step?

No, you misunderstand our argument (cause you are an idiot), I can have an opinion on whether something is good or bad TO ME. I don't have an opinion on whether something is good or bad absolutely.

That is the argument.

So there is. Ok.

Just like AC thinks there is right?...you agreed with him.

EDIT: And I very much understand the whole "TO ME" thing, don't worry.

So...did you see what AC said regarding the Lily Allen song LDN?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So there is. Ok.

Just like AC thinks there is right?...you agreed with him.

EDIT: And I very much understand the whole "TO ME" thing, don't worry.

So...did you see what AC said regarding the Lily Allen song LDN?

Well, I agreed with certain parts of his posts, not sure whether I agree with everything it is likely though, I can state that I agree with everything I said though, if that helps.

And yes, I saw what he said about the Lily Allen song (which I have never heard)

So HE finds it boring, HE finds it dull, and HE doesn't enjoy listening to it...so how exactly does saying "it sucks" or "it's crap" mean anything in the face of someone else who might not find it boring or dull, who might enjoy listening to it, and who says it's "good"?

What significance does saying "LDN is crap" have in the face of that other person's opinion who says it's good?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So HE finds it boring, HE finds it dull, and HE doesn't enjoy listening to it...so how exactly does saying "it sucks" or "it's crap" mean anything in the face of someone else who might not find it boring or dull, who might enjoy listening to it, and who says it's "good"?

What significance does saying "LDN is crap" have in the face of that other person's opinion who says it's good?

It has the significance of portraying his opinion.

If the other person asks "Do you like LDN" and he says "Nah, it's crap" then the other person knows his opinion and if done correctly also the intensity of said opinion.

Ok. So far so good.

And even with the new dude, he gave some reasons why he thinks the song “Come with Me” by P. Diddy feat. Jimmy Page sucks...as did I...and he said "sure" these are good reasons...

...that it's overproduced, corny, contrived, uninspired, etc...

And then he also said this...

"Sure. But just because two people, or ten people, or ten thousand people agree that has no bearing on whether it's objectively bad or good."

EDIT: You with me or what?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Ok. So far so good.

And even with the new dude, he gave some reasons why he thinks the song “Come with Me” by P. Diddy feat. Jimmy Page sucks...as did I...and he said "sure" these are good reasons...

...that it's overproduced, corny, contrived, uninspired, etc...

And then he also said this...

"Sure. But just because two people, or ten people, or ten thousand people agree that has no bearing on whether it's objectively bad or good."

EDIT: You with me or what?

Yes, they said that, continue.

So I ask the same question again...

How exactly does saying that song "sucks" or "it's crap" MEAN ANYTHING about a song ACTUALLY being crap, in the face of someone else who might NOT think it sucks or it's crap?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So I ask the same question again...

How exactly does saying that song "sucks" or "it's crap" MEAN ANYTHING about a song ACTUALLY being crap, in the face of someone else who might NOT think it sucks or it's crap?

It does not.

Thank you

…soooo, what would be the point of saying a certain piece of music sucks or is crap if really what you’re saying "does not", like you said, mean anything about it ACTUALLY being crap (apart from maybe that the music doesn’t appeal to you or that you really hate it)?

...are you saying "It think MAYBE it's crap?"

Well, there would be no REAL point. You’re not actually saying something “actually” sucks…are you? So why really even say that? Well…as I just said, I guess saying this can express that you really, really don’t like it or that it doesn’t appeal to you…

Otherwise, that'd be like saying...

"That movie was the biggest waste of time and money in the world...but it's not ACTUALLY bad, so..."

or

"Lily Allen's music sucks...but it doesn't ACTUALLY suck, so..."

WHY BOTHER even starting that sentence? You yourself such a statement "does not" mean anything about something ACTUALLY being crap.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Thank you

…soooo, what would be the point of saying a certain piece of music sucks or is crap if really what you’re saying "does not", like you said, mean anything about it ACTUALLY being crap (apart from maybe that the music doesn’t appeal to you or that you really hate it)?

...are you saying "It think MAYBE it's crap?"

Well, there would be no REAL point. You’re not actually saying something “actually” sucks…are you? So why really even say that? Well…as I just said, I guess saying this can express that you really, really don’t like it or that it doesn’t appeal to you…

Otherwise, that'd be like saying...

"That movie was the biggest waste of time and money in the world...but it's not ACTUALLY bad, so..."

or

"Lily Allen's music sucks...but it doesn't ACTUALLY suck, so..."

WHY BOTHER even starting that sentence? You yourself such a statement "does not" mean anything about something ACTUALLY being crap.

Because it is clear to everyone that it is your opinion. You do think it is bad because it does not appeal to you. Do you just want people to say instead "I don't like it"? Because that happens, but if you want to say that you think the other has horrible taste for liking something that you so dearly despise saying "It is shit" is much more useful. That's just how English works.

And you bother starting that sentence because you are talking about your opinion. Why not start that sentence?

Horrible taste? Why would his taste be actually horrible?

Explain.

Kinda like a couple people stuck it to me because they thought I liked Creed and we're laughing at my taste?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Horrible taste? Why would his taste be actually horrible?

Explain.

Kinda like a couple people stuck it to me because they thought I liked Creed and we're laughing at my taste?

Horrible taste in the other person's opinion. I thought I made that blatantly clear.

And yeah, if you like something better you think the other person is an idiot for not seeing what you feel is the beauty in a song or the shittiness in another. Basically, you might know that there are no absolute criteria, but you are very much of the opinion that your own opinion is the only opinion that actually counts.

So you are a kind of person that thinks people are idiots because they might not enjoy the same music as you...or because they don't understand why you totally despise another piece of music.

...what does that even mean?

I know I've never done that...and I think music's objective!

That's just ridiculous

-"You're dumb because you fail to see why I like what I like."

-"You have bad taste in music because you like what I hate"

That's the most absurd thing i've ever heard. THAT IS what you're saying

...but most importantly here, again you've made this crucial error. You said there is actually...

"beauty in a song or the shittiness in another"

...that someone might not see.

But wait...that beauty isn't really there. It just is to you. It's your opinion, which really "does not" mean anything in face of his opposing opinion.

Therefore, in conclusion, you're saying someone is stupid because they can't recognize a particular thing you say is good but isn't ACTUALLY good...just to you.

Oh my.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So you are a kind of person that thinks people are idiots because they might not enjoy the same music as you...or because they don't understand why you totally despise another piece of music.

...what does that even mean?

I know I've never done that...and I think music's objective!

That's just ridiculous

-"You're dumb because you fail to see why I like what I like."

-"You have bad taste in music because you like what I hate"

That's the most absurd thing i've ever heard. THAT IS what you're saying

...but most importantly here, again you've made this crucial error. You said there is actually...

"beauty in a song or the shittiness in another"

...that someone might not see.

But wait...that beauty isn't really there. It just is to you. It's your opinion, which really "does not" mean anything in face of his opposing opinion.

Therefore, in conclusion, you're saying someone is stupid because they can't recognize a particular thing you say is good but isn't ACTUALLY good...just to you.

Oh my.

How is that beauty you are talking off defined, I mean, why is LND a good song, why is One more time not?

Dude. 'Cmon.

When I asked...

-"How exactly does saying that song "sucks" or "it's crap" MEAN ANYTHING about a song ACTUALLY being crap, in the face of someone else who might NOT think it sucks or it's crap?"

YOU SAID

-"It does not."

Right? And then you also said...

-"you think the other person is an idiot for not seeing what you feel is the beauty in a song or the shittiness in another"

So...combine the two:

Saying there is "shittiness" (in place of the word "crap"😉 doesn't MEAN ANYTHING (according to you..."It does not"😉 about a song ACTUALLY being crap (or shitty).

THIS IS WHAT YOU'VE SAID...YOU CANNOT DENY THIS SO FAR.

So...therefore, you are thinking "the other person is an idiot" for not clueing in, getting, understanding, or seeing something that...ISN'T EVEN ACTUALLY SHITTY? Something that is ONLY SHITTY TO YOU?

That's what you do?

oh boy!!!

Let's try this then...

Those couple people who made fun of me for liking Creed. What are they even suggesting by making fun of me?

I mean, I would understand the ridicule if Creed was SOMEHOW proven as being a band that makes music that actually/objectively/beyond doubt/truly sucks…but you and others (them included) have said that there is no such thing.

Maybe if there was, then it’s possible I could look like a fool for liking a truly crap band that makes truly crap music…but otherwise, I don’t get it. It doesn’t even make sense to make fun of me if in my opinion (and others) Creed can be considered good.

And this is the same with you.

You maybe could call someone an idiot if there ACTUALLY WAS shittiness in the music that he failed to detect. But you yourself have said that saying "this is shitty" doesn't SAY ANYTHING about it ACTAULLY BEING shitty in face of another person's opposing opinion. So what has he failed to detect...nothing.

THAT'S what I mean.