Originally posted by Soljer
Know what that means? Wolverine, in his first appearance, WASN'T a spiderman-level rogue with claws in his gloves and no healing factor.It means, even in his first appearance, he was a mutant with a healing factor, a slightly enhanced physique, an adamantium skeleton, and WAS MORE than capable of cutting the Hulk.
Because, as others have said, you can't change the past in real life. YOU CAN change the past in a comic.
Anywho - I want one of those profile card dealies! I just don't know what picture to use...😬.
yeah bud, i know what retroactive means. i've already said i don't mind the retcon, or the fact that his "first appearance" was again referenced from the mutant angle. i think this is the third time i'm saying it, actually.
but, as you yourself admit, a retcon can't change the past in real life. it can't change the intentions of the situation as they were written by wolverine's creators. all the retcon does is establish a situation different from what the creators intended, thus making their initial intentions functionally useless. thus, making them inapplicable to a post-retcon scenario. that's been my entire argument. this entire time. christ o'malley, why was that impossible for your heads to wrap around?
Because its incorrect. His creators in real life intended for him to go up against the Hulk. So in the comics he went up against the hulk. You can't change the fact that in real life he was intended to go up against the hulk by saying "thus making their initial intentions functionally useless"
Because it doesn't. even post retcon he keeps going up against the hulk. so the intention of going up against the hulk never changed.
It's really not that hard a concept Dizzy.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Because its incorrect. His creators [b]in real life intended for him to go up against the Hulk. So in the comics he went up against the hulk. You can't change the fact that in real life he was intended to go up against the hulk by saying "thus making their initial intentions functionally useless"Because it doesn't. even post retcon he keeps going up against the hulk. so the intention of going up against the hulk never changed.
It's really not that hard a concept Dizzy. [/B]
Exactly. The intentions are the same, even if the methods differ.
again, i revert to analogy to make the point surround a less controversial issue.
you intend to buy a car. you have it picked out, in the lot, and have even taken a test drive. but the dealer tells you, even if you put down your money, the only car you'll get is one you don't want. would you still intend to buy it, despite it being different and the decision being put into someone else's hands?
in this example "you" is len wein and dave cockrum. "picked it out, in the lot, and even taken a test drive" equates to designing the character, getting him into a comic, and writing him with intentions yet unrevealed [in this case, fighting the hulk.] the "dealer" are the powers that be in the comic world, including stan lee [who vetoed the origin concept of wolverine being a mutated wolverine.] "putting money down" equates to having already invested in the character, as they did by writing him and envisioning his backstory. and "a car you don't want" is the wolverine established post-retcon. by your logic, any situation reminiscent of the one above ends in the person buying the car they don't want, as their intentions can't be changed or voided when applied to a different medium.
i'm not saying wolverine, as intended when written originally, wasn't meant to fight the hulk. he could've been meant to kill, rape and replace the hulk, for all any of us know. but when he was taken OUT of the creators' hands, and changed so that he wasn't the character they'd created, their intentions no longer apply to the continued musings of the character. it becomes the decision of those that take him over, and it is THEIR intentions that mold him. and since THEY didn't write wolverine's original appearance, it doesn't count toward evidence of wolverine, as we know him, being intended to fight the hulk.
Originally posted by DisappearAnd yet they still wound up with a Wolverine that went up against the hulk before and after the retcon.
again, i revert to analogy to make the point surround a less controversial issue.you intend to buy a car. you have it picked out, in the lot, and have even taken a test drive. but the dealer tells you, even if you put down your money, the only car you'll get is one you don't want. would you still intend to buy it, despite it being different and the decision being put into someone else's hands?
in this example "you" is len wein and dave cockrum. "picked it out, in the lot, and even taken a test drive" equates to designing the character, getting him into a comic, and writing him with intentions yet unrevealed [in this case, fighting the hulk.] the "dealer" are the powers that be in the comic world, including stan lee [who vetoed the origin concept of wolverine being a mutated wolverine.] "putting money down" equates to having already invested in the character, as they did by writing him and envisioning his backstory. and "a car you don't want" is the wolverine established post-retcon. by your logic, any situation reminiscent of the one above ends in the person buying the car they don't want, as their intentions can't be changed or voided when applied to a different medium.
Anything else is red herring and does not pertain to the current string of discussion.. They still wound up with a car that was mostly the same. one or two minor differences. But still improved.
Originally posted by DisappearYou mean like pitting him against the hulk time and again? dur
i'm not saying wolverine, as intended when written originally, wasn't meant to fight the hulk. he could've been meant to kill, rape and replace the hulk, for all any of us know. but when he was taken OUT of the creators' hands, and changed so that he wasn't the character they'd created, their intentions no longer apply to the continued musings of the character.
Originally posted by DisappearDude, Stop. You can't retcon real life man. Before and after the character changed hands he's gone up against the hulk. The intention to pit him against the hulk remains in tact.
it becomes the decision of those that take him over, and it is THEIR intentions that mold him. and since THEY didn't write wolverine's original appearance, it doesn't count toward evidence of wolverine, as we know him, being intended to fight the hulk.
I'm not sure what your problem is. But he's always been going up against the hulk.
You're basically saying that each time a retcon happens we should disregard EVERYTHING about the character before the retcon, absolutely EVERYTHING.
He was always intended to go up against the hulk, before, and ESPECIALLY after.
I say especially after because part of the retcon was going from him not being able to cut the hulk to the hulk just healing fast.
Tell me you're not this stupid. Nothing you have said has had any baring on the fact that he was always intended to go up against the hulk.
that may well be true. he was intended, initially, to fight the hulk. wein and cockrum came up with the idea of wolverine knowing ahead of time his initial appearance was going to be in conflict with the hulk. i haven't said that that wasn't true. and he's fought the hulk once for every new birth on the planet. i also haven't said that wasn't true. what i've said, and what stands to reason, is that after the retcon, wein and cockrum's intentions were no longer a reasonable basis for determining WHY he continued to fight the hulk, as wolverine himself was no longer the character they'd created.
to go with the analogy again, you may intend to buy the new car proposed by the dealer, but not because you simply intended to buy a car. wolverine may very well still be meant to [as a small fraction overall of what "meaning" he does possess as a character] to fight the hulk. but not because wein and cockrum wanted their mutated wolverine to fight the hulk, but because the creative teams from the retcon onward wanted wolverine to fight, or continue fighting, the hulk. that's all i've been saying. it's no contradiction or attack against your character, it's an explanation as to why the original intention [under one set of pretenses] does not apply after those pretenses change; regardless of whether the actions change or not.
Actually it might very well have been their intentions that allowed him to go up against the hulk time and again. Had his first appearence not been against the hulk there would have been less reason to have him go up against the hulk subsequently.
Jubilee for example was never pitted against the hulk, she was never intended to be able to. Had her first appearence been up against the hulk she might have had a much different story, with repeated showings.
Think of it as the foundation. If you never start something, chances are you won't continue that thing. But simply by starting something gives way for the option of continuing.
In essence their intentions could be the core as to why he fights the hulk after they lost control of him.
but that's an opinion ignoring such factors as free will, similar yet disconnected opinions, and so on. perhaps later creators simply liked the idea, or chose to have him fighting the hulk due to their own machinations, with no regard to the vaunted first issue. it also implies that influence is the sole, or primary, factor in decision-making down the line; assuming it was wein's idea that kept the wolverine v. hulk trend going whereas it could not have or would not have otherwise. that's an unsafe and impossible to justify assumption.
contrarily, ignoring wein's intentions, and treating them without the illusion of influence allows a safer, more justifiable approach; especially when they surround such a distinction as the retcon.
it seems we've gotten past the pride part of our argument, and are essentially reaching the same point. pardon the insults, won't you?
Wolverine took a GLANCING blow of Hulk and was knocked out, now he takes full on blows to the head and gets back up. How can that make sense?
This also means he had a healing facting back then by todays standards because it was loopholed or whatever the word is to make it he had one.
If it stated he had evolved or something I would be perfectly fine with him taking punches from Hulk and living, but it never has and thats my problem, he goes from tough to full on unbeatable.
Originally posted by Jack Harkness
Wolverine took a GLANCING blow of Hulk and was knocked out, now he takes full on blows to the head and gets back up. How can that make sense?This also means he had a healing facting back then by todays standards because it was loopholed or whatever the word is to make it he had one.
If it stated he had evolved or something I would be perfectly fine with him taking punches from Hulk and living, but it never has and thats my problem, he goes from tough to full on unbeatable.
Well for one, it wasn't just a glancing blow that Wolverine took, again he was still groggy from the gas that KOed him from before, AND THEN Hulk bodyslammed him into the ground to kick off round two. When he did it he did with the intention of ending Wolverine's existence too.
There's plenty of Luke Cage level characters that have failed to take that Kind of Punishment from Hulk.... Wolverine hit the ground and was immediately back in Hulks face.
You can't just sit there and repeatidly say that it only took a glancing blow to knock Wolverine out since it didn't....
Hell Wolverine wasn't even on the ground for that long, a minute at most.
And as for Wolverine evolving not being written...Yes it has... 😕
it was also a major plot point, during which time wolverine reverted to an animalistic state and was made to eventually regain his humanity with the aid of elektra.
still, his powers remained completely physically impossible. [an argument i've long since had and realized people will go to great lengths to avoid agreeing with. let's not get into it, it was just a joke.]
Originally posted by jinzin
Well for one, it wasn't just a glancing blow that Wolverine took, again he was still groggy from the gas that KOed him from before, AND THEN Hulk bodyslammed him into the ground to kick off round two. When he did it he did with the intention of ending Wolverine's existence too.There's plenty of Luke Cage level characters that have failed to take that Kind of Punishment from Hulk.... Wolverine hit the ground and was immediately back in Hulks face.
You can't just sit there and repeatidly say that it only took a glancing blow to knock Wolverine out since it didn't....
Hell Wolverine wasn't even on the ground for that long, a minute at most.
And as for Wolverine evolving not being written...Yes it has... 😕
Your wrong about that. He was distracted and then he hit him, it said it was a glancing blow but it was enough to end his life. The scan you showed whas a while after because she had to chain them up and prepare all that stuff. I have the comic in my box.
Thanks for the scan, I will look it overl. 😄
I will get back to you in a sec.
Originally posted by Jack HarknessThe scan you showed whas a while after because she had to chain them up and prepare all that stuff. I have the comic in my box.
Your wrong about that. He was distracted and then he hit him, it said it was a glancing blow but it was enough to end his life.
Thanks for the scan, I will look it overl. 😄
I will get back to you in a sec. [/B][/QUOTE]
No, I'm not wrong about that...
If the gas was strong enough to knock out Hulk and Wolverine, then Wolverine would still be effected by it when he woke up, he doesn't get to draw on unlimited energy for his HF like Hulk does, he has to supply it with nutrients for it to work at 100%, he was still effected by the gas, and what I said was that you can't parade around telling everyone that ONLY a glancing blow KOed him, because it wasn't only a glancing blow. Hulk smashed him into the ground with the intention of ending his life and it didn't work... That's as bad if not worse than a full force punch. Anyone who fights would agree, without breakfalling getting thrown is a lot harder on your body than taking a punch.
Originally posted by Jack Harkness
Damn that scan is good. If you can explain to me how he can take a blow and be concious I will be completely turned. I know he can heal it but how does it change how his body TAKES the blow there and then.Also did he keep the upgrade when he got his skeleton back?
Yes, why wouldn't he?
In Wolverine 92 they explain that his body was in a continuous state of evolution and it's the admantium that got put into him that put a stall on that evolution. After it was sucked out, he continued evolving.
I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain.
Originally posted by jinzin
The scan you showed whas a while after because she had to chain them up and prepare all that stuff. I have the comic in my box.Thanks for the scan, I will look it overl. 😄
I will get back to you in a sec.
No, I'm not wrong about that...
If the gas was strong enough to knock out Hulk and Wolverine, then Wolverine would still be effected by it when he woke up, he doesn't get to draw on unlimited energy for his HF like Hulk does, he has to supply it with nutrients for it to work at 100%, he was still effected by the gas, and what I said was that you can't parade around telling everyone that ONLY a glancing blow KOed him, because it wasn't only a glancing blow. Hulk smashed him into the ground with the intention of ending his life and it didn't work... That's as bad if not worse than a full force punch. Anyone who fights would agree, without breakfalling getting thrown is a lot harder on your body than taking a punch.
If I remember correctly he was knocked out before the gas came, I will check. Also you can deny it was a galncing blow, no matter what happens itt was glancng.
i think what he's trying to say is that every time wolverine gets hit by the hulk, due solely to the sheer force the hulk puts out, logan should die and "heal" his injuries before passing on. not just get bumped around, with the healing factor somehow protecting him from such a fate. if you think about it, an "infinity of strength" should trump grey matter in an adamantium case anyday. i mean, it's at adamantium skeleton, not a vibranium one. force and kinetics and the whole shebang are still transferred through the metal, it just doesn't break. it seems like an exercise in jobbing; the whole concept of it, not just against the hulk.
edit: to jinzin, interpreting jack harkness