Post-KOTOR Revan & Ulic Qel-Droma vs. ROTS Mace & Palpatine

Originally posted by zephiel7
I’m not saying that quotes can’t support an argument, but one quote doesn’t make an argument - especially when it’s coming from a novelization, a source which contradicts the movies (and consequently, the head honcho Lucas) on numerous occasions. There should be several facts consistently showing that Yoda is beyond Revan, not one source which on numerous occasions displayed its fallibility and rather jaded depiction of events transpiring in ROTS. [/.Quote]
Sorry, but the novelization, which in this particular bit contradicts nothing and was personally approved by the head honcho Lucas and was said by Stover to be close to SW fact that you can get...

Stop this sour grapes stuff. The quote is clear, Zephiel. Lucas approved it. The novelization, btw, is G-canon in classification.
It overrides any other EU.

I don’t doubt that Yoda’s powerful, but can he really match a Jedi/Sith that while amnesiatic was able to counter a Sith Lord on the level of Dooku absorbing an entire race of above average force users (and technology)? Even Bane who has shown more than Yoda feared Revan, and the former was capable of “nudging” objects several hundreds of thousands of kilograms in mass.

Yes, easily. Need I remind you most of Yoda's 800 or so years are almost totally unknown?
And capable of nudging a moon? No, he was shown to do that. Ever

[Quote]
In arguendo, assuming that the quote was true - which I simply can’t accept based on Yoda’s rather lackluster feats according to the supreme canon source and the novelization's reputation for contradicting movie details- how are you coming to the conclusion that Yoda is hands down Revan’s superior? Are you basing this on how Malak calls Revan stronger as a Jedi than he was as a Sith? If so, that would be Malak’s fallible opinion - bear in mind Chronicles states Malak didn’t even know everything Revan knew when the latter was the dark lord of the Sith. As you can see, I would honestly question whether Malak knew what the hell he was talking about.

Oh, and Revan canonically ends as a lightsider. Period.
And according to the supreme canon source, Lucas, Yoda is the strongest Jedi. He left the quote intact personally. Sorry if you like to go with flashy feats instead of sheer fact. Yoda's not ****ing Goku.

Sorry, but where the novelizations don';t contradict, it's G-canon. Narrative most certainly is. What does it matter what you want to accept?

Lightsnake, it was from Yoda's POV, that's all.

The quote is clear, Zephiel. Lucas approved it. The novelization, btw, is G-canon in classification.

I know what the novelization is, LS, but it still contradicts the higher canon which are the movies. You’ll pardon me if good sense prevents me from believing that a guy that had to drop his lightsaber to difficultly lift some rubble falling towards Obi Wan can defeat Revan. Especially when Revan defeated a guy of Dookuesque proportions augmented by the force energies of an entire race. Yoda had trouble stopping a senate pod and redirecting it towards Sidious! How is he going to deflect a force storm?

Yes, easily. Need I remind you most of Yoda's 800 or so years are almost totally unknown?

Herein lies the problem. If you want to make a case that Yoda was doing some uber stuff during those years, I’ll ask for proof. For all you know, he could have spent most of those years not even recognizing his affinity to the force.

Sorry if you like to go with flashy feats instead of sheer fact. Yoda's not ****ing Goku.

Re-****ing-lax. I never said that Yoda was weak, but the movie displayed facts that show weaknesses in Yoda’s abilities (telekenisis to name one) that go against Stover's statements. To assert that Yoda would - without a doubt - win against Revan is untrue.

And capable of nudging a moon? No, he was shown to do that. Ever

Prove up. If you were implying there was a retcon, Bane of the Sith never contradicts POD if you follow it to the letter. I see no point to a retcon, but if one was done anyways, I’d like to see a source stating it. I don’t see a reason responding to anything along this line until such an answer is given.

Well, that's just too bad if you 'can't accept it.' Because guess what? It's fact. It's CANON.

Do you have anything stating that Lucas approved that quote, and specified it in the context of the EU?

Moreover, if you’re basing your argument entirely on one quote then you are making an incredibly weak argument. Without proper facts - in this case, feats - supporting your argument along with the quote, your "proof" could be faulty. I want facts consistently showing Yoda is stronger, not a single a quote that comes from a Jaded source known to contradict supreme canon on many occasions. As it stands now, the quote can be anything from hyperbole to just plain wrong, due to how many times it contradicts “top” canon.

And according to the supreme canon source, Lucas, Yoda is the strongest Jedi.

Quote from Lucas please.

Oh, and Revan canonically ends as a lightsider. Period.

When have I denied this? I was questioning the validity of whether he was stronger as a lightsider than he was as a darksider.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I know what the novelization is, LS, but it still contradicts the higher canon which are the movies. You’ll pardon me if good sense prevents me from believing that a guy that had to drop his lightsaber to difficultly lift some rubble falling towards Obi Wan can defeat Revan. Especially when Revan defeated a guy of Dookuesque proportions augmented by the force energies of an entire race. Yoda had trouble stopping a senate pod and redirecting it towards Sidious! How is he going to deflect a force storm?

Prove up. If you were implying there was a retcon, Bane of the Sith never contradicts POD if you follow it to the letter. I see no point to a retcon, but if one was done anyways, I’d like to see a source [b]stating it. I don’t see a reason responding to anything along this line until such an answer is given.

[Qipte]
Do you have anything stating that Lucas approved that quote, and specified it in the context of the EU?[/Quote]
What's this 'context of the EU' crap? It's 'context in Star Wars', which, as according to G-canon, counts towards everything at the bottom.
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/starwars/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345428837&view=qa
Q: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?

MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections.

Moreover, if you’re basing your argument entirely on one quote then you are making an incredibly weak argument. Without proper facts - in this case, feats - supporting your argument along with the quote, your "proof" could be faulty. I want facts consistently showing Yoda is stronger, not a single a quote that comes from a Jaded source known to contradict supreme canon on many occasions. As it stands now, the quote can be anything from hyperbole to just plain wrong, due to how many times it contradicts “top” canon.

Quote from Lucas please.

When have I denied this? I was questioning the validity of whether he was stronger as a lightsider than he was as a darksider. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is utter bull shit, as he was trained at a young bullshit and his deeds, while unknown, are legendary

And Yoda did not became uber powerful over-night.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda is more powerful than Revan. Fact

And Revan knows some techniques that Yoda does not.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
According to Malak, he is.

And not to forget the fact that Darth Revan was more knowledgeable then his KOTOR incarnation.

And the power and knowledge of Darth Revan was enough to over-whelm a notable Sith Lord like Darth Bane (who is considered to be a candidate for Sith'ari).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never knew that unknown deeds are often considered to be legendary! 🙄

And Yoda did not became uber powerful over-night.

And the power and knowledge of Darth Revan was enough to over-whelm a notable Sith Lord like Darth Bane (who is considered to be a candidate for Sith'ari).

RotS Sidious is not more powerful than Bane, stop being ridiculous, it's been proven over and over again that the movie characters, relatively speaking, suck ass. Bane would own Sidious in a heartbeat, case closed. Just summon up some power from his unlimited force reserves, and own him with an unlimited kamehameha wave. That's all it would take.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
RotS Sidious is not more powerful than Bane, stop being ridiculous, it's been proven over and over again that the movie characters, relatively speaking, suck ass. Bane would own Sidious in a heartbeat, case closed. Just summon up some power from his unlimited force reserves, and own him with an unlimited kamehameha wave. That's all it would take.

It's proven over and over again? Good lord Noobaris, you throw around this exact argument and it gets DESTROYED each and everytime. Bane would own Sidious in a heartbeat? But I'm glad you can prove your case. Oh wait, you spew bullshit and continually embarass yourself. Bane couldn't shine Sidious' shoes.

I just did. Sidious isn't powerful enough to stand up to someone with access to unlimited force reserves. He failed to overpower fricking Yoda, a being who struggled against catching a relatively light pillar that was falling down at a pretty low speed. Bane, who could casually move around moons, is >>>>>>>>> Yoda, and >>>>>>>>> Sidious.

Bane can't pwn Sidious in a heartbeat, seriously.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
I just did. Sidious isn't powerful enough to stand up to someone with access to unlimited force reserves. He failed to overpower fricking Yoda, a being who struggled against catching a relatively light pillar that was falling down at a pretty low speed. Bane, who could casually move around moons, is >>>>>>>>> Yoda, and >>>>>>>>> Sidious.

You just did? LOL... Still in denial huh Noobaris. It's sad that you have to make shit up in order to compensate for your lack of debating skills.
1. There is no unlimited force reserves, good try
2. POD retconned BOTS and it was proven, you lost that debate as you lost this one.
3. By TPM Sidious already pwns bane, you lose.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or, y'know, he did things that are said to be legendary and we just haven't been told about them because most his past is a mystery!
they're 'hints.'

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And I'm sure the reverse is true.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When...was he 'stunned?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And less powerful

Darth Revan has also performed some impressive feats. And his knowledge was immense and not to forget that he knew many offensive techniques as well. It was actually the power and knowledge of Darth Revan that amazed Darth Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which is great. And someone far more powerful than Bane. with all his and by extension Revan's knowledge was only able to match Yoda [/B]

I would however agree that Darth Sidious is more powerful then him.

And Sidious actually used only the following two things against Yoda:

- Force Lightning
- TK

This was enough to stop Yoda. He never used his entire Sith knowledge to stop Yoda. Guess what? think before saying something.

You just did? LOL... Still in denial huh Noobaris. It's sad that you have to make shit up in order to compensate for your lack of debating skills.
1. There is no unlimited force reserves, good try

Yes, there is. The orbalisks constantly pump Bane up with darkside energies, giving him an infinite supply to use at his disposal.

2. POD retconned BOTS and it was proven, you lost that debate as you lost this one.

No it doesn't, PoD in no way retcons the entire story, only aspects of the story.

3. By TPM Sidious already pwns bane, you lose.

Nice how you provided an argument.

Now let's put things into perspective.

PT Yoda struggled at lifting a pillar brought down by Dooku, which really wasn't too heavy, and really wasn't moving at too great a speed.

RotS Sidious failed to overpower that pussy.

Bane, by BotS, with the added power of the orbalisk armour, was capable of casually moving a moon, something roughly a gazillion times heavier than that tiny pillar that Yoda struggled with.

Now I'm not going to argue that telekinesis, force defence, and general force strength and mastery are all directly proportional, because they're not, but those facts above should make it pretty obvious that Bane is far above anybody from the PT movies (given those are the two top dogs).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you failed to note that his most notable deeds are already known.

And Sidious actually used only the following two things against Yoda:

- Force Lightning
- TK

This was enough to stop Yoda. He never used his entire Sith knowledge to stop Yoda. Guess what? think before saying something.

But this pathetically whiny 'BUT IN THE MOVIES! I CAN';T ACCEPT IT!'
Crap annoys me the most.
Guess what? Think before spouting off. Knowledge doesn't make a victory. Power and skill do

Now let's put things into perspective.

PT Yoda struggled at lifting a pillar brought down by Dooku, which really wasn't too heavy, and really wasn't moving at too great a speed.

RotS Sidious failed to overpower that pussy.

Bane, by BotS, with the added power of the orbalisk armour, was capable of casually moving a moon, something roughly a gazillion times heavier than that tiny pillar that Yoda struggled with.

Now I'm not going to argue that telekinesis, force defence, and general force strength and mastery are all directly proportional, because they're not, but those facts above should make it pretty obvious that Bane is far above anybody from the PT movies (given those are the two top dogs). [/B]

Your opinion doesn't matter. Lucas's does

Yoooou're a liaaaaaaaaaar. He catches it and tosses it asid.e And alter lfits a mountainside with no effort.
Mooooooroooon

I'm not a liar, he catches it, and struggles, as can be seen by the way his face gets all screwed up, his hands tremble, his entire body shakes, the fact that he almost loses balance, and only just pulls off the feat. I don't care about what he does with a mountainside (which doesn't compare anyway btw), non valid contradictory to the movies EU material doesn't interest me.

Palpatine and Yoda are officially approved to be stronge.r
sooooorrry.

No they're not.

And he didn't moooove, a mooooon, that's coooonjeeeecture

Yes, he did. Been proven before, and the funny things is, you accepted the proof before, yet only started arguing against it when it was pointed out how it puts Bane above your loverboy.

Naaaah. You're just a fanboy idiot who wishes he could bloiw Bane.

Your opinion doesn't matter. Lucas's does

You're right, I do wish I could bloiw Bane.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
You want to prove up or shut up there?

Yoda actually engaged in some serious challenges during the PT, Clone Wars and OT periods. His most impressive feats are already known to us.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No. More powerful by a nice margin, though

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where the hell was he 'stunned?'

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hypocrisy abound. Malak says Revan is stronger than he was as Dark Lord. Forgetting that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wowswers! and someone with all Bane and Revan's knowledge was only able to stalemate Yoda!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes he did. It stated in the book 'all of his Dark Side knowledge would soon belong to Bane.'
Wowsers!

Guess what? Revan knows far more then these two techniques and Bane did not learned all from him. But even with a limited training from Revan, Bane managed to alter the faith of the Sith.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not 'would appear.' He is

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, good lord, what stupidity. What ultra super techniques did Revan use in all his battles against Mandalore, Yusanis and Malak? Huh? Hm? We know Palp knows a lot more. We know Yoda and Palpatine know a lot.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
But this pathetically whiny 'BUT IN THE MOVIES! I CAN';T ACCEPT IT!'
Crap annoys me the most.
Guess what? Think before spouting off. Knowledge doesn't make a victory. Power and skill do

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are making no sense in this case. Can you even prove that the unknown legendary deeds of Yoda are better then his most notable known ones?

I never said that knowledge matters the most but it does plays a vital role. For example, if you know more about several offensive techniques and have practised them, you get a wide variety of options to use in combat.

I'm not present for a couple of days and the Revan-KOTOR-fan brigade comes out of nowhere and starts spewing out garbage? Nice. Well, I have some debates to tackle, I see. I'll get on it soon. Oh, and LeGenD, remember when you denied being a Revan-fanboy? You sure did one hell of a job proving it here.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
[B]I'm not a liar, he catches it, and struggles, as can be seen by the way his face gets all screwed up, his hands tremble, his entire body shakes, the fact that he almost loses balance, and only just pulls off the feat. I don't care about what he does with a mountainside (which doesn't compare anyway btw), non valid contradictory to the movies EU material doesn't interest me.

No they're not.

Yes, he did. Been proven before, and the funny things is, you accepted the proof before, yet only started arguing against it when it was pointed out how it puts Bane above your loverboy.