Post-KOTOR Revan & Ulic Qel-Droma vs. ROTS Mace & Palpatine

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sorry it took me so long to post, I nearly suffocated from the Cloud of Revan Fanboyism, and thus had to wait 'til it cleared. So, let's set a few things straight here [and forgive me if I'm misinterpreting some sarcasm]: LeGenD, you cannot dictate that Revan is "98%" of Yoda. There's no basis for it, and such a calculation is - quite frankly - coming out of your ass. He's weaker by a margin. Not a large margin, but you can't say that they're neck-and-neck, either.

Furthermore, what's with the comparisons of Revan's feats versus Sidious's? No matter how you'd like to spin it, Sidious's accomplishments were better than Revan's. In fact, if you'd like to get purely technical, while Sidious had 'manipulation and a powerful clone army', Revan had an extensive army as well and legions of Sith at his disposal, and he still failed.

Obviously I agree Revan is not 98% of Yoda and that Sidious' accomplishments are better than Revan's, but... I don't know, saying the last thing you said (even though I know it's true) makes him sound like... not powerful... kinda weak actually... so, I just ask you for the next time, can you not make him sound like he was weak? 🙂

Revan isn't weak. But when people take his accomplishments out of context, I take it upon myself to put it back into perspective. While he is certainly both one of the most powerful Sith and one of the greatest, Sidious is better in both categories. Actually succeeding in wiping out the Jedi Order, destroying the Republic, and conquering the galaxy by way of intellect and manipulation is far more impressive than anything... well... anybody did.

There was no strian. He takes a moment to snag it in midair, lifts it and hurls it aside.
Sorry

Ok, I don't see why I should debate with you if you'll just continue to ignore visual evidence. I posted the video, I posted the exact time the event happens, and I posted everything Yoda clearly does, visually, to indicate a struggle. If you're too much off a fanboy to accept plain visual evidence, than I'm just wasting my time arguing with you and should just stick to arguing against the real debaters like Gideon.

And logically, it probably did

No, logically, it clearly didn't. The time frames don't add up for one. Even if it did, for the time being, we don't know, so it holds no value in this debate, and we can only assume that if it does indeed happen, Yoda was exponentially more powerful when he was younger than how he was in the PT times, or Bane was too old and way past his prime (as for a Yoda and Bane matchup to makes sense, bane would have had to be like 300 years old or something.

And you're an idiot if you're incapable of connecting the dots

Lol, 'connecting the dots?' Is that what you call buying into a red herring like a b1tch?

False: Ki-Adi Mundi does. IT's made clear Yoda knows better as he's actually, y'know, FOUGHT Sith before. It's known Sith have died fighting Jedi in Bane's order...
HMMMMMMM

Dude, Ki-Adi-Mundi may be the one who brought it up, but Yoda just completely went along with it, and didn't in any way correct Ki-Adi. The same goes with Mace, who apparently knew about it too. A major tenant of the Jedi Code is to not be deceptive, and Yoda (and Mace) had no reason to be deceptive in that situation, so I'm viewing all these sources that say Yoda's fought sith and knew about the Ro2 as invalid, as they contradict the movies.

It takes place over your interpretation of the movies. The novelization doesn't say he struggles...and given his toher feats...whoops, he doesn't

Lol, so because the novelisation doesn't say he struggles, there's absolutely no room for visual interpretation of the movies.. 🙄

1. The novelisation might just not be elaborating.

2. The novelisation contradicts in many areas, this could be one of them.

3. Movies > novelisation. It's not so much as interpretation on my part as it is plain fact; Yoda does struggle with the task, get over it.

He says there's no contradiction between the sources.
He's canon. Your interpretation isn't.

Again, he has no authority over the English Language, no matter how 'canon' he is.

Show me a single Antediluvian agreeing with you. Yeah, I am calling you a liar, here.

Look, what you and Darth Sexy seem to think I'm implying is that some random antediluvian quoted one of my posts and added an 'I agree' at the bottom. That's not what I was saying, what I was saying was that they also share some of the views I do, and have 'argued against facts' as well, more notably claiming your sources to be either fallible or ambiguous, as I have, as they are.

You do take things out mof context. Gideon even pounded this into your skull and you still refused to get it.

No he didn't, and no I don't.

The entire premise of the story is a contradiction. The rule of Two, Dxun and Onderon needing to be moved, Kaan's spirit, Qordis dying when Bane left him behind, Bane having tried to save the Brotherhood, warning against the Thought Bomb...

No, you're trying to state your opinion as fact now. The contradictions behind Kaan and Quordis' spirits are minor contradictions, that in no way effect the story. Onderon and Dxun being too far away to just cross through is in no way a contradiction, it's perfectly explained how they had been slowly orbiting further and further away from each other for thousands of years, until they were too far apart. The Ro2, and the other stuff you mentioned, I'll admit, are quite big ones, but I see no reason to discount the rest of the story, especially when some aspects, such as the orbalisks, have been referenced in other sources. Really Lightsnake, you know I'm right, you flat out agreed with the thread where I proved that Bane pulled a moon out of orbit, and even used it in topics at EoD when arguing that Bane > Exar, and only started coming up with this retcon bullshit when I owned you in a Bane versus Yoda topic.

The downfall of your fanboyism will be a cause to celebrate

I'm sure it would be.

Um, yeah, whatever. Advent's my friend so I'm not going to rant about who's better than who. I'm capable of arguing with advent when the time comes. You are not.

Yeah, right, lol. Dude, you know Advent's better than you, stop acting like you're better but won't say so because you're such good friends 😂 . In fact, I bet if she were to be 100% honest (which she wouldn't due to recent events), she'd say I > you. Same with Gideon. I'm actually willing to bet that Advent probably finds me the hardest to debate against, when I'm at my best. So please, don't go there, you've never not be owned by Advent when you've had conflicting views, I've actually beaten her at least two times, so base don records, you're still losing.

No, you lie, twist facts, ignore canon and generally act irritating.

No, I really have.

You're almost universally disliked. Coincidence?

Me? Talk about yourself Lightsnake, weren't you actually basically owned off of this forum 6 months ago, and left crying for months before you came back? Please, don't go there.

He gives up because you refuse to accept any logic. It's not worth it

Lol, no, he never gives up, which is exactly my point. The argument would go on for days and days until each reply was ten posts long. It's not worth my time to argue with someone so persistent.

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Ok, I don't see why I should debate with you if you'll just continue to ignore visual evidence. I posted the video, I posted the exact time the event happens, and I posted everything Yoda clearly does, visually, to indicate a struggle. If you're too much off a fanboy to accept plain visual evidence, than I'm just wasting my time arguing with you and should just stick to arguing against the real debaters like Gideon.

Lol, no, he never gives up, which is exactly my point. The argument would go on for days and days until each reply was ten posts long. It's not worth my time to argue with someone so persistent.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sorry it took me so long to post, I nearly suffocated from the Cloud of Revan Fanboyism, and thus had to wait 'til it cleared. So, let's set a few things straight here [and forgive me if I'm misinterpreting some sarcasm]: LeGenD, you cannot dictate that Revan is "98%" of Yoda. There's no basis for it, and such a calculation is - quite frankly - coming out of your ass. He's weaker by a margin. Not a large margin, but you can't say that they're neck-and-neck, either.

Furthermore, what's with the comparisons of Revan's feats versus Sidious's? No matter how you'd like to spin it, Sidious's accomplishments were better than Revan's. In fact, if you'd like to get purely technical, while Sidious had 'manipulation and a powerful clone army', Revan had an extensive army as well and legions of Sith at his disposal, and he still failed.

Now you blame Revan for such a fate?

Let’s analyze the situation of Darth Sidious:

At the end of Clone Wars when several Jedi raided Sidious’ office, a fight took place and Sidious got subdued in the end by a lone Jedi. He would have suffered a similar fate or even worse then that of Revan, if Anakin had helped his Jedi companion but he turned against the Jedi and helped Sidious instead. Now you can say that Sidious’ manipulation of Anakin worked but I must tell you that Anakin saved Sidious because he wanted him alive for his own personal reasons. So Sidious managed to escape a horrible fate for once.

And then many years later when Sidious actually faced a betrayal at the hands of his apprentice, what happened? Sidious was killed and his mighty Empire crumbled very fast and failed to defeat the Rebels.

So you cannot say that Revan failed despite having all the tools and options at his disposal. He did not failed by himself and instead his apprentice turned against him at the time of need. If Malak had helped his master, things would be lot different in KOTOR period.

Because you're using your interpretation when everything else disagrees with you.
Yoda isn't mentioned to struggle

Gosh, I actually feel like I'm arguing with a 6 year old here. Lightsnake, what you need to understand is just because it's not elaborated on by an LFL official whether he struggled or not, that doesn't mean that we can't infer whether he did or not from the movies. Seriously man, do you actually need to be spoon fed information from canon officials for you to accept it? I've posted the video, I've posted the exact time of the video that you should watch so as to save you time, I've explained exactly what we see in the movie, which can only be interpreted one way. One does not shake their entire body unless they are going through some severe sort of exertion. One does not strain their face as tightly as Yoda did if they're not being forced to put in their utmost effort to complete the task. Now I'm not saying that that's the upper limit of Yoda's TK powers, not at all; all I'm saying is that it's close to it, going by the amount of difficulty he faced performing the feat, thus Yoda performing much harder feats with more ease with no significant improvement is 100% inconsistent with the movies. if you still don't get this, you're either a lot dumber than I originally thought, or much more of a fanboy than I originally thought. Either way, you've lost this point, wait no hold up... you've been 100% owned on this point and you're coming off as such a joke. Disagree yet again by stating that canon sources disagree with me (even though you have in no way provided proof for that claim), prove my point on how much of a joke you really are, go on big boy.

and does far more powerful things. Sorry

In the EU... How can you still not get this, The EU stuff is completely inconsistent with the movies.

*YAWN*
Dark Siders can live very long times and with these godly Orbalisks, Bane can apparently live long.

Yet his spirit (which always take the form of the person as they were when they died) in Legacy portrays him as a rather young muscular guy. The times don't add up.

And Yoda was more pwoerful when he was younger? You're a ****ing liar.

Way to read dumbass, I said that if Yoda were to really have beaten Bane, one of the only logical explanations is that he was exponentially more powerful when he was younger, because, as things stand, PT Yoda doesn't compare to BotS Bane. I never actually made the claim that Yoda was absolutely more powerful when he was younger, so as I've said in other threads, learn to read.

Bane would be a bit over 200, btw.

Which doesn't add up with the way he's portrayed in Legacy...

Unless he's pathetically weak as a Sith, this shouldn't be a bother.

Huh.

It's not just the fact that he was aging, it's also a known fact that continued use of the force wears away at your physical body, so physically, he would undeniably be a lot weaker. And really, 'unless he's pathetically weak as a sith, this shouldn't be a bother?' You just self owned yourself there with that statement, I guess the fact that Palpatine's aging process was such a bother (to the point where he was dying) makes him a 'pathetically weak sith,' huh?

UPS!

It's called ;using logic.' Which your Bane blowing brain can't comprehend

Right, because believing that an LFL employee would just go and inform everyone of a major plot element of a highly anticipated future novel is totally logical. 🙄

Where? It's clear Yoda knew better as he knows of the Ruke of Two and has killed Sith before. Whoops!
Btw, 'deception' isn't not chiming in.
You're an absolute idiot, especially as Lucas said if there ever was another movie, it'd be yoda in the past fighting Sith.
Aand Yoda states the Rule of Two...IN THE MOVIEs

OK, my bad, I forgot about the Ro2 thing, so well done, I'll concede on this one, you win. I'm still owning your every other point, so really, it's no big deal for me, I'll let you have this.

You know what, strike that, I care too much about my interwebz reputation to concede like that, so....

Whoops! You lose! Soooooooorry!

And he does more impressive things in the EU.
Idiot

Movies > EU, dumbfvck.

Or you're wrong.
Idiot

Or I'm right, dumbfvck.

Not in this case.
Idiot

Your wrong! Ups!

Yet Lucas, the incredibly detailed word byt word editor didn't see fit to say Yoda struggled.
He doesn't struggle.

Lucas didn't see it fit to change a number of details that contradict his movies. Are you going to deny that Kit Fisto was stabbed, and not decapitated, simply because 'LVC4$ L1nEZ 3d!Ted M4TTh3VV St0\/3r'?

Point is, Lucas line editing the novel didn't prevent contradictions arising, so the simple fact that he line edited it doesn't grant the novelisation immunity from being retconned by the movies, like you would have people believe.

Big deal. He's saying your interpretation is wrong and the EU feats are canon.
Sorry

As I've said before, I really don't care about whatever you and Mr Chee talk about in the bedroom, that's your business. Fact is, he still doesn't get to define what a contradiction is, and placing his opinion over mine is appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

Wow, one post. When was the last time an antediluvian backed up your bullshit? The most you've ever had lately is Nai tearing you down

The antediluvians that count (Illustrious, IKC, Janus) all argued the same 'arguing against canon' stuff that I do, is my point. They're the most intelligent members here, so they arguing the same thing bodes well for my point. I'm not trying to appeal to that fact or anything, just bringing it up to counter your 'noone agrees with you' line.

Liar. Idiot.

SidiousHumper. Whoops, sorry!

Sorry, you stupid ****er:
Bane's entire thought process? CONTRADICTION
Kaan being there? Major part of the story, CONTRADICTION
Onderon and Dxun? CONTRADICTION
Rule of Two there? CONTRADICTION.

Sorry, only the orbalisks are still canon, the rest has been effectively debunked. And you proved jack shit. Onderonj and Dxun= always naturally close to eachother. So there was nothing to pull. No onscreen evidence, sorry

Again, you're wrong; it's explain in BotS how the moon and the planet had been orbiting away from eachother for thousands of years, so they may have once been close, but that was no longer the case, ergo no contradiction. Get it yet, you bumbaclot?!

Now I can only repeat myself, and say this: there are contradictions inside BotS, but we both know that retcons work on a case by case basis, and only the stuff that contadicts is rendered invalid, not the entire story itself. I'm not using any of the retconned material from BotS, so you continuously spouting out that BotS was retconned is 100% irrelevant. Facts are, Nadd's holocron? Not retconned. The orbalisk armour? Not retconned. Dxun and Onderon orbiting away from eachother for thousands of years? Not retconned. That's the only sh1t I've been using from BotS, and none of it is retconned.

This is just funny. Again, I won't let you twist anything into this. If Advent wants to post, she's more than welcome, but you attempting this is low. Even for a little Bane sucker like you.
Advent finds you the hardest to debate against, I agree.
Because you're an absolute idiot who can't accept logic or anything. You're not a good debater. Just a stubborn, stupid fanboy idiot.
And you've never once beaten her

Either way, I've gotten closer to it than you ever have. Bring her here, I bet she'd attest to the fact that I do better against her than you do. Seriously, you suck ass. You lie, you misconstrue things, you flat out don't make sense most of the time, you're constantly vague, not always purposefully, you hardly ever back up what you say, your grammar, spelling, quoting and spellcheck skills are hardly better than Kadesh's and your ad hominem tactics are truly lame. Face it man, you flat out suck donkey dick in debates (you can't touch my alliterreration), and until you up your game, I don't think I'm gonna waste any more time with someone who posts 'whoops, Liar!' at the end of the majority of my posts.

No, you lie-you even ADMITTED THIS- you twist facts, you take things out of context and ignore anything that you don't like

I admitted to lying...OUTSIDE OF DEBATES. If I lie on whether I am or am not a random socked member has no relation on whether or not I lie during debates. The fact is, you've never caught me out on a lie (because I don't), I've caught you out a bunch of times.

Go back under your rock and dream of jerking Bane off. Wanna talk about the time you kept getting banned, Count Kent?

Wow, great tactic, accuse me of being someone who clearly is not me. How about I accuse you of being Hockage Yoda? Or how about Darth Dan The Man?

He outright stated he was done with you because you're a rock headed moron

Yet he continued.. as I've said, he's a loser who can't speak english properly, has way too much time on his hands, and is the biggest persistent fvck on the entire forum.

Revan failed because of an unfortunate betrayal that caused his early demise. He was an unstoppable force and would have succeeded in conquering the Republic because his military was gaining victory after victory in every battle against the Republic until that betrayal put a good halt to his plans.

a.) I've bolded the 'unstoppable' moniker you credit to Revan, to point out that it isn't true, for the simple reason that he was - y'know - stopped.

b.) Revan failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing (Grand Admiral Thrawn and Palpatine also suffered similar betrayals), the difference is, Palpatine had already achieved something that Revan didn't: mastery of the galaxy as a whole.

Now you blame Revan for such a fate?

I surely do.

Let’s analyze the situation of Darth Sidious:

At the end of Clone Wars when several Jedi raided Sidious’ office, a fight took place and Sidious got subdued in the end by a lone Jedi. He would have suffered a similar fate or even worse then that of Revan, if Anakin had helped his Jedi companion but he turned against the Jedi and helped Sidious instead. Now you can say that Sidious’ manipulation of Anakin worked but I must tell you that Anakin saved Sidious because he wanted him alive for his own personal reasons. So Sidious managed to escape a horrible fate for once.

Yes, LeGenD, let's detail those personal reasons: Anakin wanted Sidious alive so he could save Padme from her death. Now, let's see... who was the person who got that thought stuck in Anakin's head in the first place? Hmm... aaah... yes... could it be Palpatine? So, thanks for owning yourself. Saved me the... well... time...

And then many years later when Sidious actually faced a betrayal at the hands of his apprentice, what happened? Sidious was killed and his mighty Empire crumbled very fast and failed to defeat the Rebels.

Let's compare: Palpatine's apprentice was actually destined by the greatest prophecy in the galaxy to destroy him and his lineage, yet Palpatine transformed him into his manservant for twenty years. Revan was betrayed by a relatively unintelligent [compared to himself] brute who functioned as his best friend, closest ally, and friend. Once again, Revan gets the short end of the stick.

Furthermore, 'his mighty Empire' continued to rule the galaxy until years past his first death. In fact, the only reason the Rebels managed to gain a foothold is because of warlordism that took place when Palpatine was dead. I hope you're not trying to compare 'empires' either, 'cuz Palpatine's Empire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan's Empire.

Lastly, the final time Palpatine was betrayed was... oh, wait... after the death of his clone...

Revan was betrayed by a moron while they both were alive. Palpatine's betrayal occured from the Chosen One and the second time while he was dead.

So you cannot say that Revan failed despite having all the tools and options at his disposal. He did not failed by himself and instead his apprentice turned against him at the time of need. If Malak had helped his master, things would be lot different in KOTOR period.

Revan set a goal. Revan did not achieve that goal. He failed. Is he a failure? No. Is he a genius? Yes. Is he one of the greatest Sith? Oh, most definately?

Now, are Palpatine's accomplishments greater? Yes, by far.

Originally posted by Gideon
a.) I've bolded the 'unstoppable' moniker you credit to Revan, to point out that it isn't true, for the simple reason that he was - y'know - stopped.

And Sidious was also stopped. So we can say that both of them were not unstoppable.

Originally posted by Gideon
b.) Revan failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing (Grand Admiral Thrawn and Palpatine also suffered similar betrayals), the difference is, Palpatine had already achieved something that Revan didn't: mastery of the galaxy as a whole.

The same Rebellion that can be credited for destruction of two Death Stars and inflicting heavy losses on the imperial forces. So Sidious never managed to establish his absolute rule over the entire Galaxy. He however did turned the Republic in to a Galactic Empire.

And Sidious also failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'.

Originally posted by Gideon
I surely do.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes, LeGenD, let's detail those personal reasons: Anakin wanted Sidious alive so he could save Padme from her death. Now, let's see... who was the person who got that thought stuck in Anakin's head in the first place? Hmm... aaah... yes... could it be Palpatine? So, thanks for owning yourself. Saved me the... well... time...

What Sidious actually did was that he convinced Anakin that Dark Side is the only path through which Anakin can achieve that feat. Anakin's own fear and arrogance however played a major role in his transformation. Sidious can only be partially credited for convincing Anakin to adopt the Dark path.

Originally posted by Gideon
Let's compare: Palpatine's apprentice was actually destined by the greatest prophecy in the galaxy to destroy him and his lineage, yet Palpatine transformed him into his manservant for twenty years. Revan was betrayed by a relatively unintelligent [compared to himself] brute who functioned as his best friend, closest ally, and friend. Once again, Revan gets the short end of the stick.

Anakin despite being prophesied to be The Chosen One became a Sith instead and played a massive role in one of the largest crimes that were committed in Star Wars history. Luke Skywalker should actually get credit for making his father realize his mistakes and redeem him. There is a reason that the Emperor feared Luke so much.

And a betrayal cannot be justified by any means regardless of who commits it. Anakin not only betrayed the Sith but he also betrayed the Jedi as well.

Originally posted by Gideon
Furthermore, 'his mighty Empire' continued to rule the galaxy until years past his first death. In fact, the only reason the Rebels managed to gain a foothold is because of warlordism that took place when Palpatine was dead.

Originally posted by Gideon
I hope you're not trying to compare 'empires' either, 'cuz Palpatine's Empire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan's Empire.

I however agree that Sidious created a bigger Empire but it does not matters.

Both Sith Lords managed to create a powerful Sith Empire in there times, which is a big feat.

Originally posted by Gideon
Lastly, the final time Palpatine was betrayed was... oh, wait... after the death of his clone...

Revan was betrayed by a moron while they both were alive. Palpatine's betrayal occured from the Chosen One and the second time while he was dead.

Originally posted by Gideon
Revan set a goal. Revan did not achieve that goal. He failed. Is he a failure? No. Is he a genius? Yes. Is he one of the greatest Sith? Oh, most definately?

Originally posted by Gideon
Now, are Palpatine's accomplishments greater? Yes, by far.

Wait a second. It looks like Noobaris is banned. Again. AHAH

Yeah! I noticed it also!

But he might still come back with a different login name... 😛

Of course he will..

I wonder what it was for this time...imagine how calm it will be here now, at least for awhile....

Originally posted by Gideon
Revan isn't weak. But when people take his accomplishments out of context, I take it upon myself to put it back into perspective. While he is certainly both one of the most powerful Sith and one of the greatest, Sidious is better in both categories. Actually succeeding in wiping out the Jedi Order, destroying the Republic, and conquering the galaxy by way of intellect and manipulation is far more impressive than anything... well... anybody did.

Of course he isn't. I was just saying, but I never meant to say Revan is weak.

@ Subjekt: You mean 30 seconds? 😛

He's....banned...HE'S BANNED! Liberty! Liberty! SANCTUARY!

How do you know he's banned??

'Account Restricted'

And that means...? Sorry, I'm kinda new here so...

Originally posted by Riverollv
And that means...? Sorry, I'm kinda new here so...

Got it. Then Apollo's gone forever??