Oh, and Vader even says that he was trying to do this:"There is no conflict. If you will not be turned to the dark side then you will be destroyed."You honestly think Vader was fighting his hardest or even close to it, in either movie? And Vader got his arm cut off b/c he was holding back, and by ROTJ w/ the darkside added, and Vader very conflicted he got his arm cut off, Kenobi in the same situation could have done the same thing.
Originally posted by kamikz
They are almost crushing their throats, that DOES do damage. Look at the general that Vader kills in ESB in some seconds, that is proof enough.
Also, in ANH, the General that Vader chokes for a while (while talking to him), holds his neck like it's in pain after he has stopped, not like he's just gasping for air. Force grip/choke doesn't just make you stop breathing.Oh, and Padme fainted after a couple of seconds. Yeah, she was pregnant, but a pregnant lady can hold her breath for 10 seconds without fainting.
With Padme you have a good point. But that was really weak. I don't know why she went down so much faster than Ozzel did.
You honestly think Vader was fighting his hardest or even close to it, in either movie? And Vader got his arm cut off b/c he was holding back, and by ROTJ w/ the darkside added, and Vader very conflicted he got his arm cut off, Kenobi in the same situation could have done the same thing.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Force Crush cruches throats, not Force Choke, especially when the user of it is trying not to hurt his opponents, just scare them. Which general is it that we see Vader kill in seconds in ESB? Ozzel is still flopping around a while later when Vader is talking to Piett. It was a lot lonegr than seconds, more like a minute before he fell to the ground and likely longer till he died. If you're talking about Needa, the camera cuts to Vader choking him, we don't know how long Vader had been choking him before off-screen.With Padme you have a good point. But that was really weak. I don't know why she went down so much faster than Ozzel did.
That's why I said "almost", it squeezes the throat, kinda like strangulation. (Or exactly like)
I thought he went down in seconds, gonna have to re-watch ESB.
Also, Luke gets choked by Shimrra, and cannot hold out very long. Apparently, force breath doesn't work, or else he would've used it, same as others would've. So there is more to it than just losing air.
I mean, if someone chokes someone it takes less than three minutes to kill them.
We don't know the power behind the force chokes, but I bet that they could squeeze the whole throat so the pain would be overwhealming, or kill them instantly.
Well, never mind about that, I just wanted to say that choking someone and holding breath isn't the same thing, you can kill someone much quicker than you can wait out a person who's holding his breath. Doesn't mean that I agree that Luke didn't choke both at once though.
Also, Luke gets choked by Shimrra, and cannot hold out very long. Apparently, force breath doesn't work, or else he would've used it, same as others would've. So there is more to it than just losing air.
Vader didn't want to kill Luke in ROTJ.
He was testing Luke and trying to turn him, but his intention was not to kill Luke. He forced Luke to fight and to eventually give in to anger and/or fear.
Luke even acknowledges in the Courtship of Princess Leia that if Vader wanted to kill him in ROTJ he would have.
Of course Vader didn't want his hand chopped off, but such was Luke's ferocity at that moment that Vader found he couldn't hold Luke off on pure defense.
As far as the this match up is concerned, AOTC Anakin beats Luke. He pushed Dooku and visibly made Dooku struggle, plus he had more raw talent and training than Luke.
Vader didn't want to kill Luke in ROTJ.
He was testing Luke and trying to turn him, but his intention was not to kill Luke. He forced Luke to fight and to eventually give in to anger and/or fear.
Luke even acknowledges in the Courtship of Princess Leia that if Vader wanted to kill him in ROTJ he would have.
Of course Vader didn't want his hand chopped off, but such was Luke's ferocity at that moment that Vader found he couldn't hold Luke off on pure defense.
As far as the this match up is concerned, AOTC Anakin beats Luke.
He pushed Dooku
and visibly made Dooku struggle
plus he had more raw talent and training than Luke.
Originally posted by darthsith19He didn't want to hurt Luke and anything he said to the contrary was for the emperor's benefit so he wouldn't seem like a traitor. He gave Luke a little warning that he was about to strike (whether subconsciously or not) by saying, "you are unwise to...", so it wasn't much of a "death strike."
Lol, Vader never said that during the duel. Luke was using the opposite of Dun Moch to try and turn Vader back to the lightside, even if Vader didn't want to hurt Luke, he proved that he was willing to do so for the Emperor when he attacked Luke while Luke had his defenses down, and again when he threw his saber at Luke. Yet Luke defeated him - neither AOTC Anakin or Kenobi could have.
Originally posted by darthsith19Thats exactly what you're doing with the "There in no conflict." statement. Hypocrite.
Yeah, cause Luke was trying to turn him back to the Dark Side, so you're going to take his words over what we actually see happen? 🙄
Originally posted by darthsith19Dude, why do you lie? Is so you have a remote chance of maybe winning? Vader only said the first sentence. Palps said the latter right before he electrocuted him. Nice try though. Next time, get your facts straight before trying to argue it. And there was conflict as it was ANAKIN that felt Luke on the shuttle with Han and the emperor didn't. Conflict.
Oh, and Vader even says that he was trying to do this:
"There is no conflict. If you will not be turned to the dark side then you will be destroyed."
Originally posted by darthsith19Didn't say he let him, but he was not trying to hurt Luke at all. It's quite obvious that he didn't want to hurt him. Everything he said was for Palps' benefit.
Then provide proof that Vader let Luke cut off his arm and knock him to the ground.
Originally posted by darthsith19The novel, the look on his face in the movie; and it was from Anakin testing him, not OB1 who was not a threat to him in the least. He was constantly taunting OB1 and did no such thing against Anakin. Also, NJO luke has far more experience than ROTJ Luke so thats highly irrelevant and moot. Nice try at misdirection though. I didn't mention anything about the choreography. But Luke wasn't even a Jedi yet, and he was just swinging his bat, I mean saber, all wildly devoid of any defining style. Anakin picked up a second saber for the first time against one of the best swordsman in the order's history and was doing pretty well with it. Luke could barely use one with half the finesse.
Where does it say that Dooku was aitred, and if he was it was a combination of Anakin and Kenobi that tired him out. Yes, he did have formal training with a lightsaber, and since Luke never did, that we saw (except with Kenobi on the Falcon), he must automatically lose, right? Oh wait, NJO Luke has never had formal saber training either, and he's the best saber wielder in all of Star Wars. Oh my gad, so now we're taking bad choreography to make Luke look bad? Well, if we're going to use bad choreography as proof then why the hell do people put Vader above Dooku? If Vader is truly above Dooku and Luke beat Vader then we should put all bad choreography aside.
Originally posted by darthsith19If it were a killing blow, then he wouldn't have given him that little warning before striking. And you're right, cause I know when I'm trying to hurt/kill someone and then they cut off my hand (pissing me off even more) I want to go help them out. No, if he wanted him dead, he would have let his master kill Luke.
No, his saber would have hit Luke's right side, cut into him. Also, when Vader says "You are unwise to lower your defenses!" that's a killing blow, too. And at any rate, even if Vader wasn't trying to hurt Luke (which he was) Vader was still trying his hardest to defend himself, he didn't [b]let Luke kick him down the stairs, he didn't let Luke knock him to the ground and cut off his arm.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19He clearly chokes the left on first then the right one, separately, the first one just still feeling the affects. And he did not cloak himself from Vader, he was just hiding in the shadows. Jedi don't come with lo-jack or something for people to find them.
Pretty impressive, but Luke Force Chokes two people at once, something we haven't even seen Vader do ebfore, and successfully Force Cloaked himself from Vader during the duel in ROTJ, and Vader is much more powerful than AOTC Anakin.
Originally posted by darthsith19If it was just to scare them then he wouldn't need to continue choking the first on while choking the second. And holding your breath is not the same being choked. Watch UFC and watch people get "choked out" or tap out within 30 seconds to a minute...holding your breath, there's no constrictions on your airways; you're just holding the flow of air in. It's common sense.
Uh, neither of them were knocked out, you can live for 3 minutes without air, that was a few seconds. He just choked them to scare them so they'd let him pass and no one need be hurt.
Originally posted by darthsith19Hurling has a lot to do with it. He controlled it rather than just point and fling. Luke could barely move rocks. And he only deflected one maybe two and then got bombarded with all the rest. Plus, they weren't even moving fast. Well he did nothing in ROTJ to show a power increase, so we cant assume that he did increase by a significant amount, just as your asinine assumption that OB1 didn't improve over a 10 year gap with formal training. As you would say... 🙄 Is SOTME even canon? I don't think Vader tripping over his own arm really fits the bill.
What does hurling it at her have to do with anything, why'd you put that in there? Deflecting objects that Vader throws at him and Force Jumping quite proficiently is good, and then in ROTJ he would be even stronger than that. Also, in SOTE, he levitates, actually is sitting cross legged in his cell when captured by Bounty Hunters and rises off the ground using the Force.
Originally posted by darthsith19Ok, throwing something is throwing something, and they weren't moving fast. He didn't deflect, he hit it with his saber and started getting pelted. And I would put Asajj far above Luke anyway, so irrelevant.
It is a big deal, seeing as they were coming from Vader, who's leagues ahead of AOTC Anakin with the Force, and that was ESB Luke, ROTJ Luke is even stronger. Didn't Anakin take damage from Asajj Ventress's objects in the CW Cartoon?
Originally posted by darthsith19HE didn't DEFLECT ANYTHING BY USING THE FORCE!!! Jumping? No. Luke blocked 3 or 4 bolts from a remote after being hit just as much. These were THOUSANDS of blaster bolts (that kill unlike remotes) coming from BD and SBD. Far more impressive. Especially when there were Jedi with far more training than Anakin getting hit and dying from those same bolts. Your anti-Anakin shit doesn't work here. Anakin uber...? Compared to this Luke, yes.
Oh wow, blocking blaster bolts, and you think Force Jump and Force Deflect are no big deal, and yet you bring up blocking blaster bolts, something that Luke could do after less than a week of training on the Falcon. Oh my god, Anakin must be uber... 🙄
Originally posted by darthsith19Who brought up choreography? He didn't beat vader because of choreography, he beat Vader because Vader didn't want to hurt him in the least, and like your little wet dream Maul, Vader was taken by surprise by Luke using the dark side. Couple that with no intention of harm and anyone would go down.
Wow, so 90% of the population here insists on putting OT Vader above Dooku and the same people put ROTJ Luke below AOTC Anakin, even though Luke beat Vader, just because of bad choreography, which, by the way, Vader has, too.
Originally posted by darthsith19You mean like how you downplay Anakin cause you don't like him? I've argued for Luke plenty of times. I don't mind Luke, I just don't like Mark Hammil. And taking your word on topics doesn't equate to much being as how i've rarely seen you debate without lying or "misinforming" people who may not have the same sources. So save that shit for the birds.
Then read up, I've posted lots of it. Seems like you're really downplaying Luke just because of bad choreography and because you don't like him, seeing as you put Vader above Dooku...
Originally posted by darthsith19No, just no. If you don't want to do something, then you're not willing to...thats what that means.
Maybe so, but he was still willing to, as he proved when he attacked Luke after Luke had lowered his defenses, and again when he threw his saber at Luke.
Originally posted by darthsith19No he wasn't. Prove it. By proof I mean something other than your opinion.
Agreed, but he was also willing to kill Luke is Luke didn't turn to the dark side. During parts of the duel his moves were deadly, and Luke could easily have died. So while Vader's intention was not to kill Luke, he was still willing to do so if necessary.
Originally posted by darthsith19Prove a negative? Prove he was trying his best to defend himself. That onus is on you since you brought it up before.
I remember the quote, and it refers to how easily Vader could have killed him with the Force. Luke ebat Vader in the saber duel fair-and-square, unless you want to proove that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself, which is riduculous.
Originally posted by darthsith19Luke saw an opening while Vader was "holding back" and took it. Doesn't prove anything.
And when Vader gets kicked down the stairs?
Originally posted by darthsith19Given that Vader would be holding back the same as he was with Luke, absolutely.
Really? So then could AOTC Anakin beat Vader with a blade?
Originally posted by darthsith19Not if a cut scene was around the same time, but I'd have to see it again.
Not in the film, only in the novel, the film contradicts this, therefor it didn't happen.
Originally posted by darthsith19Anakin didn't use Djem So yet (at least not to the same degree) so thats moot. And maybe you should go read the exerpts that Advent posted about that duel. Dooku was tested more than the movie showed...
Dooku did seem hard pressed to keep up with Anakin's speed, but Anakin never even came close to getting a hit on him. It wasn't [b]that close, and also remember than Dooku's form is weak against Anakin's.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19Well, it certainly helped Dooku lose two hands and a head didn't it?
And what good is [b]raw talent going to be? [/B]
EDIT: Sorry for double post.
He didn't want to hurt Luke and anything he said to the contrary was for the emperor's benefit so he wouldn't seem like a traitor. He gave Luke a little warning that he was about to strike (whether subconsciously or not) by saying, "you are unwise to...", so it wasn't much of a "death strike."
Thats exactly what you're doing with the "There in no conflict." statement. Hypocrite.
Dude, why do you lie? Is so you have a remote chance of maybe winning? Vader only said the first sentence. Palps said the latter right before he electrocuted him. Nice try though. Next time, get your facts straight before trying to argue it. And there was conflict as it was ANAKIN that felt Luke on the shuttle with Han and the emperor didn't. Conflict.
Didn't say he let him, but he was not trying to hurt Luke at all. It's quite obvious that he didn't want to hurt him. Everything he said was for Palps' benefit.
The novel, the look on his face in the movie
Also, NJO luke has far more experience than ROTJ Luke so thats highly irrelevant and moot.
I didn't mention anything about the choreography. But Luke wasn't even a Jedi yet, and he was just swinging his bat, I mean saber, all wildly devoid of any defining style.
Anakin picked up a second saber for the first time against one of the best swordsman in the order's history and was doing pretty well with it.
Luke could barely use one with half the finesse.
If it were a killing blow, then he wouldn't have given him that little warning before striking. And you're right, cause I know when I'm trying to hurt/kill someone and then they cut off my hand (pissing me off even more) I want to go help them out. No, if he wanted him dead, he would have let his master kill Luke.
He clearly chokes the left on first then the right one, separately, the first one just still feeling the affects. And he did not cloak himself from Vader, he was just hiding in the shadows. Jedi don't come with lo-jack or something for people to find them.
Hurling has a lot to do with it. He controlled it rather than just point and fling. Luke could barely move rocks.
And he only deflected one maybe two and then got bombarded with all the rest. Plus, they weren't even moving fast.
Well he did nothing in ROTJ to show a power increase
Is SOTME even canon?
Ok, throwing something is throwing something, and they weren't moving fast. He didn't deflect, he hit it with his saber and started getting pelted. And I would put Asajj far above Luke anyway, so irrelevant.
HE didn't DEFLECT ANYTHING BY USING THE FORCE!!!
No. Luke blocked 3 or 4 bolts from a remote after being hit just as much. These were THOUSANDS of blaster bolts (that kill unlike remotes) coming from BD and SBD. Far more impressive. Especially when there were Jedi with far more training than Anakin getting hit and dying from those same bolts. Your anti-Anakin shit doesn't work here. Anakin uber...? Compared to this Luke, yes.
Who brought up choreography? He didn't beat vader because of choreography
he beat Vader because Vader didn't want to hurt him in the least, and like your little wet dream Maul, Vader was taken by surprise by Luke using the dark side. Couple that with no intention of harm and anyone would go down.
You mean like how you downplay Anakin cause you don't like him? I've argued for Luke plenty of times. I don't mind Luke, I just don't like Mark Hammil. And taking your word on topics doesn't equate to much being as how i've rarely seen you debate without lying or "misinforming" people who may not have the same sources. So save that shit for the birds.
No, just no. If you don't want to do something, then you're not willing to...thats what that means.
Prove a negative? Prove he was trying his best to defend himself. That onus is on you since you brought it up before.
Luke saw an opening while Vader was "holding back" and took it. Doesn't prove anything.
Given that Vader would be holding back the same as he was with Luke, absolutely.
Not if a cut scene was around the same time, but I'd have to see it again.
Anakin didn't use Djem So yet (at least not to the same degree) so thats moot.
Well, it certainly helped Dooku lose two hands and a head didn't it?
Luke pwns him.
AOTC Anakin wins in all 3, but its not pwnage and AOTC Anakin could have done the same thing as ROTJ Luke did, Vader was just taken by surprise, that Luke camed so strong at him, Anakin who has more training, precision... could have done the same thing to Vader, that doesn't mean he is better then Vader. What Luke did to Vader in ROTJ is the same thing OBi-Wan did to Maul in TPM, both combatants wore weaker then their opponents(Vader and Maul), they just cot them of guard.
Originally posted by Riverollv
AOTC Anakin takes this. Luke hasn't had 10 years of training, and given to the fact that their Force potentials are probably very close to each other, Anakin has exploited his abilites in the Force and saber combat mucho mas than Luke, obviously because Luke had very, very little training.
Originally posted by Count Makashi
AOTC Anakin wins in all 3, but its not pwnage and AOTC Anakin could have done the same thing as ROTJ Luke did, Vader was just taken by surprise, that Luke camed so strong at him, Anakin who has more training, precision... could have done the same thing to Vader, that doesn't mean he is better then Vader. What Luke did to Vader in ROTJ is the same thing OBi-Wan did to Maul in TPM, both combatants wore weaker then their opponents(Vader and Maul), they just cot them of guard.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, Anakin had more training, guess what? PoD bane had less than a year of training and even the Bane-haters would say that Bane > AOTC Anakin. Oh my god, AOTC Anakin has had 13 years of training, AOTC Kenobi has has 35, and Anakin would own Kenobi. Poor logic there. How is Force Close? Luke claoked himself from Vader. vader >>>>> AOTC Anakin.
When you're a Dark Sider you increase your power and abilities FASTER than when you're a Jedi. That has to do with why Bane obviously kills AOTC Anakin, DarthSith. Anyways, Bane has nothing to do with Luke. They're completely different cases. And let me tell you in case you don't know, Kenobi's potential is NO WHERE near Anakin's, so that would explain why Anakin learns faster and is stronger. Now look who speaks poor logic. And DarthSith, I've never insulted you, so lets keep it low.
Originally posted by darthsith19I remember the quote, and it refers to how easily Vader could have killed him with the Force. Luke ebat Vader in the saber duel fair-and-square, unless you want to proove that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself, which is riduculous.
You agree that he didn't want to kill Luke outright and then say Luke beat Vader fare and square with his lightsaber? Doesn't correlate. Vader in OT was a far superior lightsaber duelist, credit to Luke for having enough skills to make it difficult for Vader to beat him, but the fact of the matter is that Vader was a better duelist.
Vader did attack Luke when his defenses were down, but that was only to force Luke into a fight. You honestly believe Vader didn't know that Luke would defend himself if he swung his lightsaber at him?
Vader was pretty much controlling the fight in ROTJ without pushing himself, if Vader wanted to beat down Luke with his saber he would have. Vader didn't want to destroy Luke in ROTJ and he was Luke's superior in all aspects of the Jedi arts.
AOTC Anakin was better trained, more talented and overall possesing more knowledge of the Jedi arts, he wins 7/10 times.