Originally posted by darthsith19Listen to me very carefully...if he was not intending to kill Luke, then they were meant to be killing blows. Virtually ANY strike from a saber can be a killing blow...do you understand?
It was still a move that could have killed Luke, as was the saber throw, so where his intention wasn't to kill Luke he was willing to do so if it needed to be done.
Originally posted by darthsith19You said something about taking what was said over what we actually see, in a sarcastic manner, as if that was wrong to do, but then you're going to say since Vader said, "There is no conflict," that there wasn't. That's what I'm talking about, although now it seems you're slowing changing your view on that.
What the hell are you talking about?
Originally posted by darthsith19It was the good in him that felt his son, rather than a Sith feeling a Jedi. Sidious is 20% more powerful than Vader, and even after he said, "My son is with them," (not skywalker is with them) Sidious still couldn't sense him. Hence, it wasn't Vader feeling him, it was his good side, aka Anakin.
My mistake, Vader said if he didn't turn to the dark side then he would "meet your destiny". How was it Anakin who felt Luke on the shuttle?
Originally posted by darthsith19But you still haven't proven that he was defending to his greatest ability. In ESB, he was toying with him til Luke tagged his shoulder and pissed him off for a second and he ended it the way he could have the entire time, thus showing his immense superiority over Luke. There is a such thing as underestimating someone.
His goal wasn't to kill Luke, but he was willing to hurt him, as he showed numerous times in the duel and also in ESB when he threw objects at him and cut off his hand. At any rate, he was trying to defend himself and Luke still got past his defenses [b]twice.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19Please prove it was pity. And i told you it was in the novel, so you can go look it up, as I'm sure you have that book.
The look in the movie was pity - please provide a quote.
Originally posted by darthsith19No you didn't prove shit. Anakin, who at the time still had the highest potential of anyone ever (to include Luke) was trained by some of the temple's best for 10 years, while luke got like what, 3 months of training at best, at a much later age? There's no contest there at all. And yes, opening a school and teaching styles and methods does matter as you learn as well, and keep yourself fresh.
Doesn't matter, your point was that Anakin wins cause he's had more formal training, which I proved didn't work.
Originally posted by darthsith19No, swinging like that is lack of a defining style. You're the one playing the choreography card. And since you say it doesn't matter here, then it doesn't matter in the Vader/Dooku thread...thanks for the retraction.
The swinging it like a baseball bat is the choreography. He was a Jedi Knight by the end of the film.
Originally posted by darthsith19Well unfortunately, you're opinion means jack shit here, and doesn't dictate anything. We have never seen nor heard of him using two sabers before and someone here even said that it was his first time, perhaps LS, Escape, or Advent. In any case, even if he had picked up two before (which he hadn't) i doubt it was enough to become proficient with, as it would take away from his main style training.
Who says it was the first time? I seriously doubt any Jedi would use 2 sabers for the first time in a deadly situation.
Originally posted by darthsith19Vader was holding back, your point is moot.
Yet he still beat Vader, so your point is moot.
Originally posted by darthsith19No he would not have killed him. he could have been confident in his ability to block and defend himself. Also, through his conversations with Luke its obvious that he wanted to kill Sidious as early as ESB, and would not sacrifice his only chance for help (as well as his son) just on a whim.
The warning shows that his intention was not to kill Luke, but the strike was still a killing strike and shows that Vader was willing to kill Luke if Luke didn't turn to the dark side. At the end it took him over a minute to turn back, before he wasn't at that stage yet, one swing and it's over, no time to think about your actions.
Originally posted by darthsith19Yes, dipshit, shadows. If the room is dark already, you're wearing black and hiding under stairs in the shadows, which are, guess what...BLACK 😱 then you would be somewhat hidden. And what good would talking be if you're were busy "cloaking" yourself? lol, wow...good one there buddy!! Prove to me that he was cloaking himself. A quote, a source, something...can't do it, can you? Didn't think so.
I'll have to check the film, and he does cloak himself from Vader. Hiding in the shadows? Lol, yeah, and what was stopping Vader from sensing where he was? The all-powerful shadows? 🙄
Originally posted by darthsith19And dropped them all...wow...good control. Again, nice try at ignoring facts by way of shitty misdirection.
Good point, Luke was able to control moving rocks, while holding up a stack of them, and hanging upside down, and that was in ESB, he's stronger in ROTJ.
Originally posted by darthsith19Uh, bullshit. He hit one or two, then got hit in the back and sides until vader broke the window behind him that sent flying bye-bye. And I'm not downplaying Vader in the least. Look at the film...they weren't moving fast, at least the one that he actually hit. Wow, a guy with a lightsaber taking out a bunch weak-ass "thugs" is not that impressive, when he gets shot in the hand, trapped by Boba, and has help from others. And if you're even trying to SUGGEST that Luke killed Vader, then I'm done with this and dropping you down to the bottom of the scrotum pole, cause thats blatant bullshit and you fcuking know it.
No, he somewhat deflected most of them, and they were thrown by someone who you think is greater than Dooku so they had to have had a lot of power behind them. Quit trying to downplay Vader after consistently putting him above Dooku in the other thread!
Killing Vader, choking guards and taking out all of Jabba's thugs by himself shows a great power increase.
Originally posted by darthsith19Thought it was a typo...what is SOTE? When is it?
No, SOTME isn't, but SOTE [b]is. Two different books. [/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19Dooku's irrelevant, and the speed with which the objects move IS NOT FAST. The power of the individual is irrelevant, and being as he wasn't trying to kill or really hurt Luke, he could have thrown them "just hard enough."
Quit downplaying Vader. According to you he's above Dooku, so they ahd to have had tons of power behind them. He did deflect most of them, watch again, he rarely hit them with his lightsaber. Vader >>>>> Asajj at the beginning of the Clone Wars, and her objects hit Anakin, didn't they? And that's CW Anakin, who's ahead of AOTC Anakin.
Originally posted by darthsith19In ESB? No, i don't believe he did...
He did, watch again, your memory seems to be foggy.
Originally posted by darthsith193 is far more than 2? Wow buddy. Way to fellate a favorite characters feats. How do you know he couldn't do that? He has far more talent than Luke. And yes, we see younglings doing it in AOTC, and since Anakin is above all of them, I'm sure he could do that too. So, you're wrong again. Anakin blocked far more blaster bolts from many more directions while being distracted by other occurrences, not all safe on a cozy ship with an old man telling you what to do. You lose again.
Luke got his [b]twice, and deflected far more than that, and that was the second time he'd ever held a saber. Anakin couldn't have done that the second time he'd held a saber. [/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19That's your opinion, and obviously your attempt at avoiding a point.
You did, baseball bat swing = bad choreography.
Originally posted by darthsith19Prove it. Did I say that Maul is on Vader's level? FCUK NO!!!! I never put Maul above Dooku, and Dooku is superior to Maul...and thats all irrelevant. And my point is, not that i didn't state it clearly enough the first time, that Vader was holding back, and didn't expect Luke to tap into the dark side, hence taking him by surprise when being attacked from the side. Do you understand now? This is all typed out, so you can read as slow as you need to, to comprehend it.
IT DOESN'T FVCKING MATTER, BECAUSE VADER WAS STILL TRYING TO DEFEND HIMSELF [B]100%!!!. Maul was in a tired state, and he still won, Vader was in an untired state and he lost. And now are you putting Maul on Vader's level or something, cause before you put him above Dooku and weren't you the one who claimed that Dooku was far above Maul with sabers? So what the fvck is your point, comparing the two of them?[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19Its obvious that you don't like Anakin, and shows in your..."debates"...I don't mind Luke, but don't like the actor. I don't care for HC, but i like Anakin. Choreography never escaped my mouth, or in this case, fingers, so you're ridiculous in trying to bait me into something. Try harder. Try...oh I don't know, logic and not be a fanboy.
I never said I don't like Anakin, you're putting words in my mouth. You openly admit that you don't like Hammil and your proof completely revolves around bad choreography. You're riduculous.
Originally posted by darthsith19So you're really going to compare going to work, getting out of bed and changing diapers to killing your own son that you thought was dead already, thusly forcing you into this state of evil? Wow dude. If thats your argument, you need more practice at this. You're in idiot in this case. Well....
Bullshit. Do you eer not want to go to work, but you do? Do you ever wake up in the morning and don't feel like getting out of bed but you do? Do you ever not want to change your kids diaper but you do (I can't remember how old your kids are, if they wear diapers still or not)? But you do it anyways, so your "point" is toal bullshit, people do things that they don't want to do all the time.
Originally posted by darthsith19I just said there's a chance he wasn't trying his best until the end of the fight when he was overwhelmed.
So now you're saying that Vader wasn't trying to defend himself? Have you totally lost it? Vader had all the reason to defend himself and no reason not to.
Originally posted by darthsith19Not trying to hurt or kill someone equates to not trying your hardest overall.
Yes it does, Vader wasn't trying to get hurt or let Luke get past his defenses and he failed to defend himself.
Originally posted by darthsith19Vader was holding back. Got it?
Vader was trying his hardest to defend himself. Got it?
Originally posted by darthsith19You seem to think he blocked "far more" than what hit him...you're a tool. Why don't you go watch the OT again. Obviously You're a PT fanboy who knows dick about the OT.
Yes, but there was no cut scene. yes, please watch it again, for our sake as well as yours. And watch ESB again, too. ROTJ as well. ANH would be good, too, as you seem to think the remote droid hit Luke as many times as it didn't. 😆
Originally posted by darthsith19It doesn't matter to what degree he uses it? Are you fcuking stupid? No, wait, don't answer that, I already know. Then by your logic, anyone who used Makashi, regardless of their skill level, could stalemate Dooku in a saber match. Dooku, who mastered it to the absolute highest degree. Dooku was Anakin's superior in saberwork and Anakin truly tested him, and did better than Kenobi, who you think is his superior. You dolt.
Yes, he did use Djem So. It doesn't matter what fvcking degree he used it to, he still used it, and Dooku's form is still weak against it, therefor Anakin still had av advantage from the start.
Originally posted by darthsith19No, Dooku was still superior to Anakin in sabers, and Anakin, due to his RAW talent and abilities, fcuking PWNED his ass...therefore not moot, therefore, you lose.
There was no [b]RAW talent involved in that battle. raw talent is talent that hasn't been reached yet, that's like saying TPM Anakin beats anybody because he has more raw talent that anybody. Raw talent speaks only of potential, and nothing of someone's actual abilities at the time. The poitn was moot, I'm not even sure why it was brought up in the first place.
Very true. [/B]
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Prove all of that.
Are you talking to me?
OK. Putting aside logical deduction i.e. Vader was a lot more powerful than Luke in ROTJ and a superior duelist still in his 40's with a 3 decades more, worth of experience and knowledge in the Jedi arts.
Luke says in the Courtship of princess Leia that he realizes Vader would have destroyed him if he wanted to.
Second, ever since their ESB encounter Vader was conflicted and was very reluctant to destroy Luke. When Luke lowers his lightsaber he deliberately forces Luke to defend himself, and tests the young Jedi without showing any urgency to destroy Luke. If you ever saw Vader fight Jedi he was a lot more intense than he was in ROTJ.
Luke jumps on the platform and Vader destroys it supports, clearly and deliberately preventing Luke from avoiding a fight. Beyond that he doesn't even attack Luke, and you want to believe that Vader wasn't holding back?
Vader was extremely conflicted, on one hand he wanted more than anything to be together with his son and turning his son was the best way to accomplish that end.
Another part of Vader didn't want to fight or even to turn Luke and he was trying to convince himself as well as the Emperor, that he was still the devoted Sith Lord he'd been for 20 years before meeting his son.
He was testing Luke, trying to force him into anger and/or fear , after all Vader by this point was an excellent Sith Lord.
he didn't beat the shit out of him, he hammered his blocking saber then cut his hand off. Luke got the shit beat out of him in ESB, as noticed with all the bruises and physical attacks...Vader lost due to holding back. Luke admitted he would have lost had Vader actually, oh i don't know...TRIED. Also, just because Luke won this ONE duel, doesn't mean he's better than Vader...not in the least. If you recall, OB1 was beating Maul, but Maul was still the better of the two. There's no way, logically, that Luke can win this.
Still waiting DS19...
Personally, I do think it's fairly obvious that RotJ Luke did not overpower Darth Vader based on 'natural ability'. Given what I've read about the topic, it is logical to assume that both Vader's and Luke's feelings regarding their fight was similar to Yoda's feelings about confronting Dooku in AotC. Willing to fight hard against them? Yes. Willing to kill them? No. At least, not without some severe incentive. Furthermore, you have to understand that the second half of this little debacle is a mirror-image of Obi-Wan's fight with Maul; Luke (Obi-Wan) utilizes his sudden burst of anger against Vader (Maul), catching them off guard. In this case, however, you have a person who is naturally stronger in the Force and a natural with a lightsaber, and someone who isn't quite as agile or as quick.
Give RotJ Luke a lightsaber and one to Vader, there's nothing to make me think that Luke could actually defeat Vader, one-on-one without the assistance of the dark side, his father being conflicted, or both.
Originally posted by Gideonand there is no question he is way beyond RODV in terms of power, you can not underestimate how much Vader was holding back fighting his son, especially in ROTJ.
That said, Anakin wins. But I don't think RotJ Luke is sucky in the slightest. Standing toe-to-toe against Vader requires some sort of skill, since an inexperienced Vader was able to tool six trained Jedi in RoDV.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
It may seem obvious, but, I'd like a quote, not your opinion.Vader comments on how he thinks that Luke has more potential than Anakin did in SOTE.
We know that Luke's potential doesn't surpass Anakin's, and in SOTE, he goes on how he hasn't tried to kill Luke at all, nor would he. He would only kill him if he were 'easily defeated'. Vader was fully confident that he could defeat Luke. It's just a matter of how easy it would be.
Originally posted by Gideon
We know that Luke's potential doesn't surpass Anakin's
and in SOTE, he goes on how he hasn't tried to kill Luke at all, nor would he. He would only kill him if he were 'easily defeated'. Vader was fully confident that he could defeat Luke. It's just a matter of how easy it would be.
Vader is still the Jedi crushing Titan we know him as. Luke is just the character with the most potential and was trained to become powerful fast by the most powerful Jedi ever. Enough so that he overpowered Vader, using his emotions, and Vader was left helpless to Luke's rage.
Originally posted by Gideon
We know that Luke's potential doesn't surpass Anakin's,
Do we really? Luke may not surpass Anakin's natural potential but Luke has the Kaiburr Crystal which may very well put him above Anakin in potential.
and in SOTE, he goes on how he hasn't tried to kill Luke at all, nor would he. He would only kill him if he were 'easily defeated'. Vader was fully confident that he could defeat Luke. It's just a matter of how easy it would be. [/QUOTE]
I'm not going to claim that Luke was stronger than Vader. He wasn't. However, Luke is still far beyond AOTC Anakin, who I don't think would last thiry seconds against Vader.
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractI'm not going to claim that Luke was stronger than Vader. He wasn't. However, Luke is still far beyond AOTC Anakin, who I don't think would last thiry seconds against Vader.
I don't get this, how was he far beyond AOTC Anakin?
A question: would Luke have handled himself as gracefully as Anakin did (before getting his hand chopped off) against AOTC Dooku by ROTJ?
Would Luke have survived the Geonosian arena, given how he got his hand shot by Jabba's goons in ROTJ?
People are failing to realize just how much experience AOTC Anakin has over Luke in terms of the Jedi arts. They are also failing to realize that Anakin had greater force potential than Luke, given that he was (you know...) birthed by the force itself.
Vader didn't want to kill his son and that pretty much dictated what happened in ROTJ.
AOTC Anakin takes this.
How?
"The Force was strong in Luke, perhaps even stronger than it had been in Anakin..."
I have to say, Jolly, this is some utter bullshit coming from you; which is something I never expected to occur. That quote is retconned by Lucas, who - at most - said that Luke could become what Anakin couldn't, more powerful than Sidious. Never has it even been hinted that his potential surpasses the Chosen One, who is conceived by the Force itself, which is exactly what you're suggesting.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What the hell is up with you going around questioning everything I say? It's from a source that's been mentioned repeatedly in this thread. SOTE.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What the hell is up with you going around questioning everything I say? SOTME.
Because apparently, you're a moron. First off I said "not that I'm doubting you, " and secondly, not only do you double post saying virtually the same thing, but you name two different books.
And for a bonus point!...I asked what SOTE was and when it was but to no avail. Perhaps this is why you're looked at as Nebaris' foreskin around here...
Also, I like how DS19 hasn't yet responded when he was sooo sure he was right...