Originally posted by darthsith19
Thanks, Blaxican.Subjekt, I see no point further debating with you, it is:
A. To long of a debate
B. Worth more than it's worth
C. Your poor logic (poor imho) makes me sick, since you're judging by what you see in the film and not taking EU into any account what so ever.P.S. Go Darth_Glentract! 🙂
A. Good excuse
B. Worth more than its worth??? What?
C. Poor logic...right. Because the movies (highest form of canon) doesn't outweigh EU. Your blatant ignorance on the matter makes me sick along with your fanboyism. Ill take that as you concede.
Blaxican - whatever...
Fine then, have it your way.
Listen to me very carefully...if he was not intending to kill Luke, then they were meant to be killing blows. Virtually ANY strike from a saber can be a killing blow...do you understand?
You said something about taking what was said over what we actually see, in a sarcastic manner, as if that was wrong to do, but then you're going to say since Vader said, "There is no conflict," that there wasn't. That's what I'm talking about, although now it seems you're slowing changing your view on that.
It was the good in him that felt his son, rather than a Sith feeling a Jedi. Sidious is 20% more powerful than Vader, and even after he said, "My son is with them," (not skywalker is with them) Sidious still couldn't sense him. Hence, it wasn't Vader feeling him, it was his good side, aka Anakin.
But you still haven't proven that he was defending to his greatest ability. In ESB, he was toying with him til Luke tagged his shoulder and pissed him off for a second and he ended it the way he could have the entire time, thus showing his immense superiority over Luke. There is a such thing as underestimating someone.
Please prove it was pity. And i told you it was in the novel, so you can go look it up, as I'm sure you have that book.
No you didn't prove shit. Anakin, who at the time still had the highest potential of anyone ever (to include Luke) was trained by some of the temple's best for 10 years, while luke got like what, 3 months of training at best, at a much later age? There's no contest there at all. And yes, opening a school and teaching styles and methods does matter as you learn as well, and keep yourself fresh.
Opening a temple doesn't give you training. You learn through the self experience of it, but it is no training.
No, swinging like that is lack of a defining style. You're the one playing the choreography card. And since you say it doesn't matter here, then it doesn't matter in the Vader/Dooku thread...thanks for the retraction.
Well unfortunately, you're opinion means jack shit here, and doesn't dictate anything. We have never seen nor heard of him using two sabers before and someone here even said that it was his first time, perhaps LS, Escape, or Advent. In any case, even if he had picked up two before (which he hadn't) i doubt it was enough to become proficient with, as it would take away from his main style training.
Vader was holding back, your point is moot.
No he would not have killed him. he could have been confident in his ability to block and defend himself. Also, through his conversations with Luke its obvious that he wanted to kill Sidious as early as ESB, and would not sacrifice his only chance for help (as well as his son) just on a whim.
Yes, dipshit, shadows. If the room is dark already, you're wearing black and hiding under stairs in the shadows, which are, guess what...BLACK eek! then you would be somewhat hidden. And what good would talking be if you're were busy "cloaking" yourself? lol, wow...good one there buddy!! Prove to me that he was cloaking himself. A quote, a source, something...can't do it, can you? Didn't think so.
And dropped them all...wow...good control. Again, nice try at ignoring facts by way of shitty misdirection.
Uh, bullshit. He hit one or two, then got hit in the back and sides until vader broke the window behind him that sent flying bye-bye. And I'm not downplaying Vader in the least. Look at the film...they weren't moving fast, at least the one that he actually hit. Wow, a guy with a lightsaber taking out a bunch weak-ass "thugs" is not that impressive, when he gets shot in the hand, trapped by Boba, and has help from others. And if you're even trying to SUGGEST that Luke killed Vader, then I'm done with this and dropping you down to the bottom of the scrotum pole, cause thats blatant bullshit and you fcuking know it.
" Using the Force, Luke manages to deflect it and send it flying as if it had hit an invisible shield. A large pipe detaches and comes flying at Luke. He deflects it. Sparking wires pull out of the wall and begin to whip at the youth. Small tools and equipment come flying at him. Bombardment from all sides, Luke does his best to deflect everything" - ESB script
SOTE is Shadows of the Emperor, set between ESB and ROTJ.
Dooku's irrelevant, and the speed with which the objects move IS NOT FAST. The power of the individual is irrelevant, and being as he wasn't trying to kill or really hurt Luke, he could have thrown them "just hard enough."
3 is far more than 2? Wow buddy. Way to fellate a favorite characters feats. How do you know he couldn't do that? He has far more talent than Luke. And yes, we see younglings doing it in AOTC, and since Anakin is above all of them, I'm sure he could do that too. So, you're wrong again. Anakin blocked far more blaster bolts from many more directions while being distracted by other occurrences, not all safe on a cozy ship with an old man telling you what to do. You lose again.
Prove it. Did I say that Maul is on Vader's level? FCUK NO!!!! I never put Maul above Dooku, and Dooku is superior to Maul...and thats all irrelevant. And my point is, not that i didn't state it clearly enough the first time, that Vader was holding back, and didn't expect Luke to tap into the dark side, hence taking him by surprise when being attacked from the side. Do you understand now? This is all typed out, so you can read as slow as you need to, to comprehend it.
Its obvious that you don't like Anakin, and shows in your..."debates"...I don't mind Luke, but don't like the actor. I don't care for HC, but i like Anakin. Choreography never escaped my mouth, or in this case, fingers, so you're ridiculous in trying to bait me into something. Try harder. Try...oh I don't know, logic and not be a fanboy.
So you're really going to compare going to work, getting out of bed and changing diapers to killing your own son that you thought was dead already, thusly forcing you into this state of evil? Wow dude. If thats your argument, you need more practice at this. You're in idiot in this case. Well....
I just said there's a chance he wasn't trying his best until the end of the fight when he was overwhelmed.
Vader was holding back. Got it?
Go watch the entire OT again and then get back to me. I hope you're happy.
Originally posted by darthsith19Okay, dipshit, explain then why vader didn't just [b]SENSE
Luke with THE FORCE! Luke's voice echoed so vader couldn't find out where he was, wow, you are eitehr an oxymoron or seriously need to watch ROTJ over again. The MOVIE is the source, WATCH IT. Vader is unable to SENSE Luke with the FORCE, therefor Luke was cloaking himself! You can't just hide from a Force user UNDER THE STAIRS! Oh my god, you make me sick.
[/B]
Not arguing against you or anything, but how come Vader could read his mind, if he couldn't sense him?
Originally posted by Gideon
I have to say, Jolly, this is some utter bullshit coming from you; which is something I never expected to occur. That quote is retconned by Lucas, who - at most - said that Luke could become what Anakin couldn't, more powerful than Sidious. Never has it even been hinted that his potential surpasses the Chosen One, who is conceived by the Force itself, which is exactly what you're suggesting.
Thanks?
What was the quote exactly? If you don't have it, that's fine, but, I can't remember it. I believe the quote I just supplied hinted at it, actually. If it has been retconned, then, that's fine, but I'd just like to see where.
The Force still could have some mystery to it. Maybe Luke, by chance, could be more naturally potent in it. Plus there is the Crystal thing.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Because apparently, you're a moron. First off I said "not that I'm doubting you, " and secondly, not only do you double post saying virtually the same thing, but you name two different books.And for a bonus point!...I asked what SOTE was and when it was but to no avail. Perhaps this is why you're looked at as Nebaris' foreskin around here...
Also, I like how DS19 hasn't yet responded when he was sooo sure he was right...
zOMG!!! I'm a noob! I double posted on accident. It's the end of the freakin world. Get over it.
And second, because you going around always second guessing everything I say speaks louder than some shit you typed up about not doubting me. Actions speak louder than words, buddy. Guess what, I tpyed SOTE and realized it was wrong and then tried to change it to SOTME, which is correct, but accidently double posted when I was unable to delete the first post. To anyone who was offended or confused, I am sorry; please forgive me.
Most importantly, can you name anyone around here who has any credibilty whatsoever as a debator (this excludes you) who looks at me as anything other Nebaris' superior in the debate ring, much less his "foreskin"? Why don't you stop acting so childish and get a ****in life. Before reading your last post I had no beef with you at all. Thanks for starting it.
Not arguing against you or anything, but how come Vader could read his mind, if he couldn't sense him?
Yeah, really. Since Vader was able to detect Luke without any difficulty earlier in RotJ, not to mention that there is no account of Luke being indoctrinated in Quey'tek that early on, as well as the fact that Kamikz is right: Vader could not have delved into Luke's thoughts without sensing him.
Because Luke wasn't able to bear his feeling's deep down, as Kenobi told him to. Because Vader brought out fear in Luke and broke Luke's guard, perhaps. The point is, for some time Luke successfully cloaked himself from Vader, cause there's no reason why the all-powerful stairs would have stopped Vader from sensing Luke with the Force.
I see. So, what you're saying is: you don't have any proof for this theory other than the fact that Vader didn't outright attack Luke at the bottom of the stairs? What a wonderful assertion, Darthsith. I forgot that you don't necessarily require a basis to pass something off in an argument and expect it to hold weight. New style of debating that you're famous for, eh?
Have you checked into the alternatives? That Vader knew he was there, perhaps, and was simply toying with him? Hell, the purpose of the entire situation was for Luke to willingly join Vader and Palpatine. Perhaps that is why instead of fighting with him and risk dying or killing his own son, Vader sought to toy with Luke. That would certainly explain the theory much better than your assertion that: 'Vader couldn't sense Luke's presence but could read his feelings accurately.'
Yeah, but Luke wasn't trying to cloak himself then, was he?
Well, since Luke was in the middle of a Rebel operation that required absolute secrecy and anonymity, I don't see why he wouldn't, with the risk that Vader would be there and all. The fact that he didn't attempt to shield himself even after Vader detected his presence seems to support it.
Bottom line: you've got jack, son.
The script says: "Vader stalks the low-ceilinged area on the level below the Throne, searching for Luke in the semi-darkness."
So he didn't know where Luke was, or else he wouldn't be searching for him. In the shuttle Luke probably didn't realize that Vader was on the Star Destroyer until it was to late. It wouldn't do any good to cloak himself after Vader had already sensed his presence, would it?
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractTo be honest with you, I really wasn't doubting you, and wanted to know. If i happen to "question" things you say, it might be because a. I don't agree, or b. haven't heard that before, which was the case here.
zOMG!!! I'm a noob! I double posted on accident. It's the end of the freakin world. Get over it.And second, because you going around always second guessing everything I say speaks louder than some shit you typed up about not doubting me. Actions speak louder than words, buddy. Guess what, I tpyed SOTE and realized it was wrong and then tried to change it to SOTME, which is correct, but accidently double posted when I was unable to delete the first post. To anyone who was offended or confused, I am sorry; please forgive me.
Most importantly, can you name anyone around here who has any credibilty whatsoever as a debator (this excludes you) who looks at me as anything other Nebaris' superior in the debate ring, much less his "foreskin"? Why don't you stop acting so childish and get a ****in life. Before reading your last post I had no beef with you at all. Thanks for starting it.
Also, I have no direct beef with you, but if thats the route you want to take it in, thats fine too. Furthermore, the foreskin comment was actually intended for DS19, but i was writing you and thinking about what I was going to reply to him, so for that, I apologize. There's not many here who aren't above Neb.
Now to the original point. I had never heard of SOTE, and since DS19's posts usually have a fair amount of typos in them, I assumed he meant SOTME, and when asked about it, no one answered me. So really, thats all i wanted to know, what it was and when, and then you took it as an attack...well calm down son, I haven't attacked you yet. If I had, you'd know it. However, if this squashes shit, cool, if not, thats fine too...
Originally posted by darthsith19
The script says: "Vader stalks the low-ceilinged area on the level below the Throne, searching for Luke in the semi-darkness."So he didn't know where Luke was, or else he wouldn't be searching for him. In the shuttle Luke probably didn't realize that Vader was on the Star Destroyer until it was to late. It wouldn't do any good to cloak himself after Vader had already sensed his presence, would it?
Exactly. It doesn't say anything about "Luke cloaks himself from his searching father, " or anything like that. It does however say that he's searching for Luke in a dark room, hence giving more credibility to my "ZomG s0rRY s00p1d Sh@d0W" theory, than your cloaking theory...my next response is coming up next...
The script says: "Vader stalks the low-ceilinged area on the level below the Throne, searching for Luke in the semi-darkness."
That's nice. But Force-sensing isn't exactly like a GPS system, Darthsith. He sensed his feelings and knew that he was somewhere under the stairs. Your point that Luke was shielding himself was rather stupid.
So he didn't know where Luke was, or else he wouldn't be searching for him.
That or he didn't know Luke's specific location or he was toying with him.
In the shuttle Luke probably didn't realize that Vader was on the Star Destroyer until it was to late. It wouldn't do any good to cloak himself after Vader had already sensed his presence, would it?
He sensed Vader. He didn't sense Vader sense him. Didn't Luke also say that he's "endangered the mission"? If he could have cloaked himself, he would. People don't abandon stealth or stop using it if they have a 'hunch' or a 'possibility' that the enemy has detected him. At worst, they stop using it when they know it's happened. Luke simply continued on with a Force-sign that said: "Hey Dad, I'm right here! " which defies reason and logic. If he could have shielded, he would have.
Originally posted by darthsith19Is that supposed to be scary or something? Tool box.
Fine then, have it your way.
Originally posted by darthsith19Hence why I said "virtually" dipshit. And you know I meant "weren't" instead of "were."
No, it is possibly to strike with a saber with a non-killing blow. Dooku did so twice in AOTC, Kenobi did so in ROTS to Anakin, Anakin in turn did it to Dooku, vader did it to Luke in ESB, how can you say that most are killing blows? But yes, you're right, they were meant to be killing blows.
Originally posted by darthsith19"Lies, deceit, mistrust are his ways now." Why wouldn't he lie in front of his master that could kill both him and his son if he admitted it? GREAT LOGIC DUMBASS!!! Anakin also told Dooku that he was a slow learner, when you know he's not...[darthsith19]Why would he say it if it wasn't true?!?![/darthsith19] My point was your blatant hypocrisy.
I was talking about what Luke said, and he was trying to turn Vader back to the light side so, obviously, he had to twist some of his statements to achieve his goal. Why would Vader not be telling the truth?
Originally posted by darthsith19THEY WERE CIRCLING THE DEATH STAR!!! You know how much of an idiot you are? Sidious sensed that "Lord Vader is in trouble" on Mustafar from Corrisant. How the hell would he (in a more powerful incarnation) not be able to sense the one person he wants to find most? That's why he asked Vader, "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear Lord Vader?" Because he said "Strange that I have not" [felt him]. Meaning there was something in Vader that could feel Luke that Sidious could not. Ask virtually anyone here, I'm sure they will agree.
Lol, yeah, since Sidious didn't sense him then Anakin must have sensed him, not Vader? Lol, no, what the hell kind of logic is that, Vader sensed him because he was right outside his spaceship! He was not as close to the Death Star.
Originally posted by darthsith19Vader ended it so easily cause he was leagues above Luke. I'm not saying he didn't have to defend himself, I'm saying it wasn't to the best of his abilities until the end when it was too late. For instance, he would protect himself from Yoda more-so than he would from Luke, cause Yoda is a bigger threat. I'm sure he defended himself to the level that he had to, but not to his utmost defensive abilities.
Please tell me why he wouldn't have been defending himself to his greatest ability. Glentract already provided proof that Vader was trying against Luke and couldn't kill him easily. Want me to quote his post? Vader ended it so quickly cause Luke had nowhere else to back up to.
Originally posted by darthsith19Advent posted it elsewhere. I don't have the book cause i have grown up responsibilities I have to take care of before buying SW books, and my mommy wont go buy them for me. And you left out your..."proof"...that it was a pity look.
No, I don't have the book; why should I? Quote, please.
Originally posted by darthsith19Its not moot at all. Kenobi is one of the best; Cin trains all the students, and is one of the best. Yoda gives lessons and demos to younglings and I'm sure other Jedi as well. And Luke did not spend three years on Degobah, so check that shit right there. Luke had something Yoda didn't...an extremely higher potential, to give way to those feats.
Trained by some of the temple's best for 10 years? Lol, no, it was mostly just Kenobi training him and as far as his power goes, it was mostly built of what he did while on missions, which wasn't all fighting like the CW or anything. Proove that the temple's best trained him that entire time. Luke got 3 years, though yes, most of it was informal. But so was his training in NJO and he still ownes everybody. Yoda trained for 900 years, NJO Luke trained for what, twenty, 99% of which was self training, and he'd kick Yoda's ass hard, so your point is moot.
Originally posted by darthsith19Yes it is. If you open a school and train and teach others, you also get better in the process. It's asinine to assume otherwise.
Opening a temple doesn't give you training. You learn through the self experience of it, but it is no training.
Originally posted by darthsith19Prove he had a style. Quote and source. Vader was said to have created his own modified style to make up for loss of mobility in the suit. So prove up.
No, Luke had a style, it was just bad choreography, which doesn't prove anything. if you're going to go by his undefined style in the movie then go to the Vader vs. Dooku thread and admit straight up that Vader doesn't have a defined style, either, and would get owned by Dooku.
Originally posted by darthsith19
My opinion is backed up by logic, your isn't. Therefor, until you provide proof, I win. Nobody fight with 2 sabers for the first time against a Sith Lord. It's simple logic here, buddy.
Originally posted by darthsith19FACT: If you're holding back, you're not utilizing 100% of your skills or abilities.
Vader was defending himself 100%, so your point is moot.
Originally posted by darthsith19BUt he was confident that Luke was able to block, so it doesn't matter if it was a killing blow cause he knew it would be blocked. And having Luke as help would be better than no help at all. Even still, that further supports the idea that he was putting on a front for Sidious. Did you not see the part before that when Luke and Vader were talking and Luke was getting through to him, and he said, very remorsefully, "it is to late for me, son." Hence not wanting to kill him.
Yes, it would definitely have been a killing blow, how can you even say otherwise? Just admit that you're wrong here. Okay, so vader was confident, how does that change the fact that he [b]lost? And what help was Luke going to be to Vader if he wouldn't turn to the Dark Side? Which is why vader had to use killing blows, to anger Luke and get him to turn.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19LOL, you are without a doubt one the stupidest people Ive ever talked to!!! 😆 First you call me a dipshit and then call me an oxymoron?!?! LMAO! Do you know what an oxymoron is? My guess is no. Go do some research dumbfcuk. Prove he was trying to sense him with the force. Zam was hiding from both Anakin and OB1 in the bar, and wasn't sensed till right behind OB1. There goes that theory, huh? Oh noes, Luke's echoing voice threw off Vader when he has the uber force-sensing ability...Escape already started to debunk this ridiculous assertion. And you make everyone sick with stupid theories and fanboy comments.
Okay, dipshit, explain then why vader didn't just [b]SENSE Luke with THE FORCE! Luke's voice echoed so vader couldn't find out where he was, wow, you are eitehr an oxymoron or seriously need to watch ROTJ over again. The MOVIE is the source, WATCH IT. Vader is unable to SENSE Luke with the FORCE, therefor Luke was cloaking himself! You can't just hide from a Force user UNDER THE STAIRS! Oh my god, you make me sick.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19Right, cause not being able to successfully control rocks is more impressive than Anakin controlling a piece of fruit. Dude, seriously, there is no way that Luke has better force mastery (during ROTJ) than Anakin. Period.
Still a lot more impressive than Anakin, while sitting at a table, moving [b]ONE piece of fruit![/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19LOL, learn to debate period, b1tch. Boba shot his wrist cord around Luke and he was therefore, for the time being, trapped. Come back and debate after you learn to use logic, common sense and spell check.
Watch ESB again and then try debating. Trapper by Boba? What the fvck are you talking about?! Boba doesn't do shit to Luke, Luke disarms him in a second. Why would Jabba hire weak-as thugs? Come back and debate after you've watched ROTJ as well.
Originally posted by darthsith19Well, being as how there's multiple versions of the script and that didn't happen in the movie...then it didn't happen at all. Sorry. Watch it, then come back and attempt to debate. He stood there and saw Vader, then got in a ready stance. Vader threw the big piece off the wall, Luke turned and hit it WITH HIS SABER, and then Vader attacked. After that, Vader started throwing more shit at him, till the window broke, and Luke took off like a kite.
" Using the Force, Luke manages to deflect it and send it flying as if it had hit an invisible shield. A large pipe detaches and comes flying at Luke. He deflects it. Sparking wires pull out of the wall and begin to whip at the youth. Small tools and equipment come flying at him. Bombardment from all sides, Luke does his best to deflect everything" - ESB script
Originally posted by darthsith19OK, thank you.
SOTE is Shadows of the Emperor, set between ESB and ROTJ.
Originally posted by darthsith19And thats irrelevant when talking about how fast the debris was moving 20 some yeas after Dooku was humiliatingly pwned. You do understand that don't you?
Dooku isn't irrelevant, as you have stated many times that Vader can beat him.
Originally posted by darthsith19He blocks three, and is hit by at the very least, as many. As far as the younglings, they don't look eight, so you'd have to prove it was eight years (although i see your point you're trying to make) but Anakin is already ahead of them the day he walks into the temple for the first time. If his precog is good enough to label him the ONLY human to be able to pod race, then logic suggests that he could block a few lasers from a remote droid. However, you're attempting to downplay Anakin's feat, saying that blocking bolts from thousands of BD and SBD's isn't impressive or more-so than Luke and his remote. Shall we go off popular consensus?
What, did I say 3, I meant there is far more than 2 that he blocks. Watch the scene, it's like 3 minutes long, just go watch it. Those Younglings have been training for 8 friggin' years, that was Luke's first time [b]ever using a saber.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19I'm not comparing Maul himself to Vader himself. I'm comparing the situation, which i thought was obvious. Two Sith lords that were being beaten by a lesser opponent by way of them tapping into the darkside. And I chose that comparison to Maul, because you are a Maul fanboy and seem to think that the same thing (that happened to him), happening to Vader, is some kind of monumental statement against Vader, when you just dismiss it as "Oh, OB1 got lucky." Well, that street goes both ways...
If Maul isn't on Vader's level then quit making that comparison. Proove that Vader [b]let Luke cut off his hand.[/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19That's fine. I'd want to draw attention away from the fact that I was getting pwned too if the tables were reversed. Also, you never responded to my reply to your assertion that Luke killed Vader...
I do like Anakin, You're full of shit, you know that?
Originally posted by darthsith19It doesn't make my point moot whatsoever. None of those things are even remotely close to killing your son. So you need to rethink that stupid assertion and concede that point, cause that was a horrible comparison.
The point was people do things that they don't want to do all the time, which makes your point moot.
Originally posted by darthsith19Luke beat him cause he caught him off guard and used the darkside when he rushed Vader from the side out of nowhere. And yes, I will say that at the end he was defending himself to the best of his circumstantial abilities. Vader has skills beyond dropping to one knee and simply holding his saber up to be hit and knocked away.
So now it's just a chance, huh? Now are you admitting that he was trying his best at the end? And that Luke still beat him?
Originally posted by darthsith19No i didn't. I said continuously that he was holding back, and just that he upped his priority to defend himself when caught off guard by Luke.
Not at the end he wasn't, you said it yourself.
Originally posted by darthsith19Maybe you need to refresh your memory and come back and respond, as you haven't done well here at all. And I'll be happy when you see the error in your ways.
Go watch the entire OT again and then get back to me. I hope you're happy.