Exar Kun and Darth Maul vs Darth Revan and Anakin Skywalker ep 3

Originally posted by Borbarad
I have to say this is really hilarious.
I ask you to substantiate your ideas and list something that Revan learned besides the force drain, which was also known to Kun. What do you do ? Come back to me with the freaking force drain. Braindead much ?

Sadow had access to all knowledge in the time of the Ancient Sith since he was an ancient Sith. What can a "storehouse of Ancient Sith teachings" offer, that the second most powerful guy in the "Golden Age" of the Ancient Sith Empire can't ? It's getting boring to repeat that question over and over again. Really. Especially since you're obviously not able to answer it and come back to me every time with "the force drain".

Wow. More braindead bullshit from Darth Stupidity.
Korriban revealed the Star Forge to him. Oh...and that gave him Dark Side knowledge how exactly ? He plundered the tombs of the Sith Lords and found some nice gimmics. That gave him knowledge how exactly ? And his minions plundered what ? The same tombs that Revan plundered ? Urm...yeah.

Wow. Would you descripe a pyramid as a "storehouse of knowledge about Ancient Egypt" ? Yes ? Can it be that a Pharao who lived in that time would still have more knowledge about that time than somebody who discovered a pyramid and managed to read anything written inside of it ? Hell...must be hard to use some freaking common sense. I wonder what a planet-size storehouse is good for if Sidious could write down all Dark Side knowledge available in the SW universe in three f*cking books and Revan was capable of forging it (uber abilities) into one freaking holocron (which Bane later discovered). Yeah. That makes so much sense. In fact it makes as much sense as saying Revan > Kun because of...urm...you still have shown me nothing to substantiate your personal opinion. Must be hard to actually come up with some argument instead of compiling texts out of bullshit and nonsense.

Yes. The same Sadow which, according to Kreia, belonged to a group of people that would wipe the floor with the KotoR-era epitomes of power. That same Sadow who lived in the time the knowledge on Malachor V, that storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge, did come from. The same Sadow who was the second most powerful guy around in an Empire filled with Dark Side users at the "Golden Age" of said Empire. One doesn't need to be a genious to figure out that Sadow might be able to offer a larger amount of more valueable knowledge. Which is proven by the fact that Kun was obviously able to come up with all sorts of things that Revan couldn't even imagine in his wet, wannabe Sith Lord dreams.

You're talking about the same "Sith base" that Kun personally ran through with learning nothing as you want to suggest ? The same "Sith Base" that had sealed tombs that nobody did set one food in before the events shown in the KotoR games and that - as we see in said games - Revan did gather no knowledge from. Who is ignorant here ? As it seems...you...who simply ignores facts.

Nihilus and Traya were unstoppable ? Does "Jedi Exile" ring a bell ? And it just took all the Jedi in the freaking Galaxy to stop Kun - oh wait...not even that really "stopped" him.

Wow. Revan made people shit their pants that needed around 30 people to come up with a force attack (force storm) that DE Sidious was capable of creating on a wider scale by snapping his fingers ? Damn impressive, dude. I wonder how this is compareable to Kun's creations who made the PT Jedi Order (Dark Reaper) "shit their pants". I wonder what Revan had compareable to zap the life-force from tenthousands of beings, kill Jedi on the spot, freeze thousands of people and WHY THE HELL he never resorted to actually using it when he was in desperate need to do so multiple times ? Why didn't he even come remotely close to archieve what Kun did archieve while he had 10 times as much time to do so.

So again, you have no argument. "Wake the **** up" TOTJ fanboy. IF I want someone verbally fellating Kun with a pitiful argument, I can contact IKC.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh good lord not this again Nai. Exar Kun had 6 months to a year max to learn certain teachings from Sadow. Mind you, only Sadow, because he didn't pillage and plunder Korriban. Revan learned VARIOUS ancient sith techniques by PLUNDERING Korriban, by PLUNDERING Malachor V, and finding the Rakata. Sorry Nai but in terms of Darkside knowledge, Revan is miles ahead of Kun.

Knowledge alone can't make up for ridiculously more natural talent and raw power. Jacen has more knowledge than perhaps any of Luke's Jedi, yet Mara beat him and Kyp, Kyle, and Corran are more powerful than her. Knowledge didn't help him.

Yoda had been around TEN times as long as Sidious in ROTS, yet he wasn't able to defeat him. Odan had been around even longer than Yoda, yet he was taken out with apparent ease by Exar.

]Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing.
He just started to train students ?
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=009
"That's why I have devoted my live to teaching Jedi Knights..."
Nope. Not really. And use some common sense please. It's extremely unlikely that somebody who devoted his live to teaching Jedi only came across some untalented wannabe-Jedi-Knights. At least he has 600 years of experience with other Jedi which is...urm...ten times as much as everybody who might have given some testament to Revan's skill has ?

I concede that point but, really Vodo teaching an unknown amount of students, with an unknown amount of power is somehow better then what anyone has said about Revan? If were going to go that route theres a 5000+ year old spirit that says Revans raw power as a padawan was literally blinding him.

Yes. Kenobi must obviously have sucked. Can it be that Padawan Kenobi managed to go toe-to-toe with Darth Maul and kill the Sith ?

Seriously. Again, if your gonna go the route of twisting little facts to suite your argument then I will to, how is it then that Maul managed to own your little "leet" TMP Kenobi AND his teacher who was noted as being on par with Mace Windu, at the same time? How is it then that Maul managed to kill previous said master with relative ease? Kenobi went toe to toe with Maul because Maul let him, and his arrogance cost him the battle, simple as that.

This a decade before AotC ? Can it be that, according to Dooku's words in AotC, Yoda himself did praise Kenobi's lightsaber skill even at that point ? Can it be that we've seen AotC Kenobi pretty much kicking the ass of Jango Fett, the "deadliest man in the Galaxy" despite of the fact that Jango had fire support of Boba in the Slave I ?

Big whoop, Yoda praised his skill and yet he still got his ass beat by Dooku, and a few years later when he fully masters Soresu he becomes an actual threat to Dooku in saber combat. Oh and he beat Jango Fett...and a kid...OMGZ he is teh bestest EVAR! Really where are you trying to go with this, we can logically assume that ANYONE at Obi Wans level or above placed in the same situation could have mimicked whatever Obi Wan did and thensome.

Of course. Almost being beheaded now translates into "playing with somebody". It's pretty obvious that Anakin was the stronger duellist. Still: How many people did you see that almost managed to kill him on equal ground ?

Accept she didn't, and we CAN assume that he was playing with her as he WTFPWNS her master the noted lightsaber duelist Cin Darllig with one damn hand.

And how should somebody exactly quantify a title ?

Why are you asking me to prove your bullshit?

The point is that this title was only given to people who have earned some extraordinary archievements in the lightsaber combat department. Be it because they mastered multiple styles, created (or helped to create) new styles or because they belong to the best lightsaber duellist of their respective eras.

And how in the hell does at the time the quote is given to Exar Kun, someone who hasn't even completed his lightsaber training under Vodo fit into that little category? And I'll ask you again where the f*ck does that leave Exar Kun on the totem pole? Is he at Kit Fisto's level? Or is it Tinn's? Or maybe Windu or Anakins level (hell no)? I'm STILL waiting.

Instead of attacking that title you might better come up with proof for Revan's uber lightsaber abilities.

Did I claim Revan was 1337 omfg in lightsaber skills? Nope. But is he logically pretty damn good? Yup, Considering he destroy's the 12 Dark Jedi by himself you HAVE to fight the three guarding the entrance after coming from Naga Sadows tomb, then your alone when you enter the Academy and 9 Sith attack you right away (your allies are tied up fighting the other guards) he does all this AFTER coming off a battle with two Terekanteks (sp) whom one alone takes a squad of skilled jedi hunters to even confront, battling Uthar Wynn the headmaster of the Sith Academy THEN fighting and Redeeming Yuthura Ban. Now either he does all this because of his amazing force abilities allow him to not even be touched and he doesn't even tire, or he's as I said pretty damn good with a lightsaber.

Other then that, theres the face that how good you are with the force directly correlates into lightsaber ability and since where given constant quotes of Revans force power to the point that it was blinding and you could literally see the force moving around him, we can logically assume that based of this he's pretty damn sweet with a lightsaber. Aside from that were told by Vandar that Revan had an insatiable appetite for knowledge and power, why then would he limit this to only knowledge of the force and NOT lightsaber form and style? Finally he was whored off to so many Jedi Masters and your going to tell me he learned nothing of saber combat? I'd assume he was around but a little less then Dooku in lightsaber combat.

Obviously the Jedi Council thought that sending two Jedi under the command of Padawan Bastilla would be enough to capture him as it appears from the corresponding cutscene in KotoR. I wonder how they managed to come up with that plan if Revan was indeed so damn powerful ?

Your habit of twisting things is getting quite annoying. First off we don't know how many Jedi were on the strike team as were never shown the their starting group only the final FOUR Jedi left to confront Revan. Also every Jedi shown in that scene pops in late which we can assume they were held up by the other large number of Dark Jedi on Revans FLAGSHIP. With that said we don't know how many died on the way to get to Revan there could have been 20 Jedi in that strike team for all we know. We also don't know the particular rank of the other three Jedi left, they could have all been Masters. We do know Bastila was only choosen for the mission because of her Battle Meditation. What I wonder is how long it takes you to come up with these ridicules points?

That is extremely funny. You might go an tell that to Thrawn who was capable of pulling that feat off. By analyzing his enemies he was capable of predicting every single move they would come up with. Was he force sensitive ?

While Impossible may have been to strong a word, your really gonna sit here an compare all the Echani high generals to f*cking THRAWN?

I know you hate analogies to the real world but predicting battles over weeks and even months was also attributed to the like of Alexander the Great, Hannibal or the Nazi-General Erwin Rommel.

Hate to break it to you but all the Generals you mentioned were fighting against forces they were relatively familiar with, Alexander and the Persians, which behaved in an very predictable manner, and Alexanders tactics of slam the front with the Phalanx and circle around with the Companion calvary were revolutionary for that period in a time were you were you had a set battle field that you weren't expected to leave. As well as Hannibal and the Roman legion.

But I'd like you to show me were Alexander or any of the others mentioned predicted the entire course of a war that could span years? Oh thats right...they didn't/can't.

Would you please quantify the power boost Malak received from the space station ? Unless you can do that, it's pretty useless to mention it. And "nearly unstoppable"

We've been through this...to the point that it made him "nearly unstoppable"

The "power of the individual Jedi Knights" ? Wow. As far as I remember he just zapped their life energy to heal himself and I don't recall something else being suggested.

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. - Databank

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion - Wizards of Coast

That of course if Revan didn't decide to destroy the trapped Jedi during the confrontation which would limit Malak's gain of trapping them to refilling his life energy once.

If your going that route then Revan has the skill to toss his saber and fend of Malak at the same time.

The official KotoR page said that it was a Jedi who did it. I quoted that multiple times here before it went offline and I recall having nice discussions about who might actually have done that with the likes of Lightsnake (and I think Escape).

If you can get anther to back you up on it then I'll concede the point but till then an offline site is not a reputable source.

Or you can stay there for 30 Minutes to see what happens. But obviously the way from the point of confrontation back to the Ebon Hawk takes more than 4 seconds not to mention the little discussion with Carth who tells Revan to run because otherwise Bastilla's sacrifice would have been useless.

Not that it even matters, notice how Malak easily put Bastila in a stasis for a long ass time all the while fighting with Revan at the same time. Bastila was the true prize and the objective and Revan was only an extra bonus, Malak felt no real threat from Revan at the time (he doesn't even think he'll return to the Lehon, and he thinks the droids on the Star Forge would kill him.)

Kun was descriped as completely unstoppable and the most powerful single entity in the entire Galaxy.

Where was he called completely unstoppable? That doesn't even make sense as he was you know...stopped. Single most powerful entity in the galaxy at the time while impressive, so was Revan.

Actually, he didn't think the Star Forge droids would kill him, as he didn't know Revan was there yet. He didn't even believe the Star Forge's entire garrison would stop him.

KotoR descripes him as being so powerful that he made the ground shake while walking on it

I'm glad we have the mental capacity to differentiate hyperbole from fact and hyperbole from a ridicules source, you do know your quoting a random Rodian merchant...

.

How is being "a great Jedi" (Vodo), "one being greater than one of the greatest ones" (going by Nadd), "an immensely powerful Jedi" (Oss Willum), "the most formidable student" of a 600 year old Jedi Master who devoted his life to training powerful force users etc. pp. anything debateable?

That is where you fail. Once again your stretching and exaggerating things, unless you simply want me to assume that every strong force user got sent straight to Vodo, if thats the case why the hell is he training Sylvar and Crado and why isn't Ulic Qel Droma there?

One might ask why Revan did even need to search for the Star Forge with all his (estimated) power where Kun was capable of coming up with dark side imbued weapons of mass destruction (like the Dark Reaper) on his own.

One might ask why your so damn stupid. Seeing as you missed the entire point of Revans fall and the Jedi Civil War, Revan wasn't trying to create weapons of Mass Destruction to rip apart the Republic he was trying to keep the infrastructure relatively intact, so when he did take over he'd have a stable economy, army, and legions of force users to do his bidding. One might ask what the f*ck Exar Kun was trying to accomplish, What is his goal? To take over the Republic? He certainly was failing at that especially when he went around blowing up its star systems. Was it to kill all the Jedi? Didn't even come close. Was it to recreate the Sith Empire? Ending the Republic is all fine and dandy but then what...he's left with a half destroyed galaxy, and a cult of force users on Yavin following him with no real government or economy to follow that. Looks like he fails again. At least Revan like Palpatine had the brains to understand that you can't destroy and tear apart the only galactic wide governmental body if you want to rule said galaxy. Especially if you don't even have your own govt. to replace or relocate it.

One might also ask why some of the most powerful items one can find in KotoR are some waste that Kun left behind on Yavin 4.

Yes I'm sure that lightsaber crystals that don't respond to Dark Side users would be a real help to Exar Kun. Use your damn head for once.

Another good question to answer would be why Revan has to go and fight the Ancient Sith in the unknown regions after the events off KotoR. They are a threat to him and the Republic ? Notice how the omniscient narrator calls Kun "the darkest power in the Galaxy" (http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=020), making him obviously more powerful than them.

This is getting too damn annoying, that comic was written what 10 or so years BEFORE KOTOR2. And Kreia says that the True Sith at that time were inactive, and no one in the known galaxy knew of them, not even Exar Kun that statement in the context its in and in light of newer sources makes it rather irrelevant.

Obviously Kun knows exactly what he's doing going by the movement patterns he shows here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=031 and the fact how presicely he does hit Vodo's stuff with both blades here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=032

Oh wow he can swing sabers and he can slam them on a stick...BAWH GOD KANG! HE A JAR KAI MASTA!!! Really little buddy , if were gonna base arguments on arsine assumptions like that, then Revan is too since if you give him anther saber he can swing em around all fancy and perrdy like...so he two must be a Jar Kai masta.

No. I said that he mirrors AotC Anakin's saber skills and that at a time when he "didn't finish his lightsaber training" as you kept repeating. Notice how Mace Windu refers to Anakin, even at that point, as the "most powerful Jedi of that time even becoming stronger".

Oh yes Anakin Skywalker at that time was the most powerful Jedi...thats why he got his ass kicked by Dooku and Yoda proceeded to take a giant shit on Dooku's head...

QUOTE=8990232]Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Yes. Let's again go by the pictures and ignore every bit of common sense. I didn't know that being a lightsaber prodigy (Luke Skywalker) consists of swinging your lightsaber like a baseball bat with all the grace and coordination of a deck-chair. And that's enough to beat the legendary Darth Vader ? I mean...Vader and Obi-Wan also didn't appear as uber duellists in ANH. Maybe we could conclude that it just looks like that because of the limitations of the medium. The way Kun wields his saber during the first fights we see him in (Crado, Sylvar, Vodo) at least suggest that he's one of the more versatile duellist considering how he holds and moves his blade. But of course we might just ignore that observation, like you always ignore the source material where it doesn't fit your oppinion, and conclude that Kun was just slamming his saber up and down like a "retard beating a pinata". Then of course I'd have to suggest that you are a retard trying to debate.

Take Kuns nuts out your mouth and wake up, the ONLY thing were shown is Kun slamming his saber up and down like an idiot, in his other duels were at LEAST given two panels of movement so we can assume something else went on, however with this panel the only thing were shown is Kun as I said swinging lika a retard beating a pinata. Get it? What we can deduce from that scene is Exar ignited his saber and proceeded to start hammering down. Thats NO indication of a style or form what so ever, what do you not get about it? Is Kuns jizz covering your eyes again?

Ajunta Pall creamed his pants so much that he attacked Revan. That's what I call fear. We might, of course, ignore the fact that Pall was completely insane due to the fact that his own blade kept him as a prisoner in his tomb for some thousand years.

Canon says Ajunta Pall didn't attack Revan. Canon says Ajunta Pall was redeemed by Revan. Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing. And he wasn't insane, he bowed and spoke to Revan, gave him details of his life of meeting Revan before and of his sword and in the end he was redeemed. Thats hardly the traits of an insane person. One might ask why Kun became a raving lunatic after only 4000 years yet Pall was able to stay sane far longer then that?

And your lack of knowledge is always amusing. Revan had knowledge from Korriban ? The same Korriban Kun already plundered almost 4 decades before Revan's time. Impressive. Malachor ?

Darth Sexy has already handled this, Kun went to Korriban fell and left, unless you have some source saying other wise then I'd advise you to shut the f*ck up on the matter, Revan however went to Korriban and plundered it, Ajunta Pall even recalls seeing him before.

I'm sure that the knowledge of a place designed to teach students in the ways of the Dark Side is compareable to personal training from Freedon Nadd and the complete knowledge of Naga Sadow.

I'm not going through this as Darth Sexy has dealt with it quite nicely. Kun's knowledge doesn't even compare to Revans.

Really. One must wonder why Revan, who you deem to be more powerful than Kun, didn't simply freeze the entire Mandalorian Army and owned them personally, zapped their lifeforce (as Kun did to thousands of Massassi)

Oh you mean in the middle of an elaborate ritual in which he had to give his life to even attempt...yeah that'd be helpful.

or walked into the freaking Senate on Coruscant to declare the end of the Republic (as Kun pretty much did).

And yet it still went on...for 4000 years no less...go figure...

Instead he had to come up with a bloody war against the Mandalorians first and then he resorted to Guerrilla warfare against the Republic.

Your boring me, play KOTOR2 again. Kreia sums it up nicely with "The Mandalorian Wars were wars of conversion" the point of that was to break as many Jedi to his side without alerting the attention of the Jedi. And KOTOR and every other source says it quite nicely that Revan had steam rolled over the outer rim and was on his way to to start taking the Mid Rim and Core Worlds. Guerrilla tactics...no why the hell would he need that when he had a LIMIT LESS supply of ships and droids. Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing.

Wow. Was it a force attack ? Can you please explain to me how - estimating force attacks don't affect spirits - Kun was able to annihilate Nadd's spirit ?

The amulet allowed him to do so...

Excuse me. Was Freedon Nadd a force user ? Kun seems to have blasted him out of existance. Now note that Nadd, even in his "not powerful spirit form" was capable to instakill Ommin and floor Vodo with a force attack while being on the other side of the Galaxy. Notice how that was the same Nadd who managed to defend himself against all Jedi attempts to destroy his presence on Onderon. So was Nadd capable of putting some defence up against force attacks ? Seems so. Did it help him against Kun's amulet ? Doesn't seem to be the case.

Revan > Naad. Simple as that. Revans defense > Naads defense.

How about listing one single of that "plethora of Dark Side powers that Kun never heared off" ? The only power canonically available on Malachor is the force drain - which Kun did know. And Malachor was a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. Notice how Sadow was an Ancient Sith. Notice how Kun was capable of doing far more than Revan could do with all his estimated knowledge.

DS has been through this, me repeating would simply be a rehash.

Notice how Kreia, who - in contrary to Revan - did spent years on Malachor still speaks about Sadow as if he was a god.

Revan spent 5 years off and on going to Malachor and Korriban. And no she doesn't speak of Sadow as a god, the only thing relevant she says about him is he nearly won the Great Hyperspace War. Your ignorance of the source material is amazing.

You mean Luke, who in times of ROTJ (almost a decade before his confrontation with Kun) was already more powerful than Vader (who was 80 % of Sidious according to Lucas, who in turn was the most powerful Sith the Galaxy has ever seen 2 decades prior to that point) ?
Allright.

You mean Luke who 3 years prior to DE after being owned in the force by the Witches of Dathromir says that if Vader wanted to he could have done the same...maybe just maybe...Vader was holding back...

Hilarious !
First: Revan on his own is as powerful as 27 force users (including Bane) combined ? (http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=8&page=066)

Adding Bane probably not, the large majority of the Brotherhood were complete weaklings Bane notes in POD that one of them was so weak and insignificant that he didn't even remember his name, let me remind you that the almost all of the Brother hood consisted of barley training Sith students. It'd be something close to that though.

No. Malak is the apex of power. With his last words being "I'm nothing". Indeed.

Context my oh so unintelligent friend...context...

They can move fast enough to catch Kun trying to run away from them who logically should also be able to use force speed.

Oh the same Kun who was still drawing on the light and couldn't access his force powers...which the narrator states when he tries to defend himself from Frisbees.

And those are energy beams. How fast do you think they travel ? As fast as blaster bolts maybe ? Ever seen a Jedi jumping out of the way of an already fired blaster bolt with the size of a small room ? I didn't.

You can't make an assumption then assume I agree with it dipshit. Considering a Jedi can dodge a blaster bolt easily regardless of the size of the blasts Revan should be able to do the same.

After blasting how often ? And I wonder why Kun should have any problems using them after he gained Sadow's complete knowledge. Or do you want to tell me that Sadow also was "almost destroyed" by and could "barely control" the power of his own invention. I doubt it. And notice how Kun later wears two amulets meaning he obviously did construct another one. Makes much sense, if the use indeed almost destroyed him and he still could barely control one amulet.

And yet he never even attempts the same attack he did on Yavin, meaning unleashing that type of attack is too much for him and he has limits with it, does that exclude him from the other attacks he has with it? No, and I never claimed it did. But the point is he isn't going to sit perched up and start shooting.

If he completely blocked it than how was the temple obliterated, eh ? Logic isn't your friend, right ? Kas'im obviously blocked a part of that force attack or redirected it without control - hence the temple landed on him.

I thought it was made quite clear but it seems I'll have to spell everything out for you.He completely blocked what came at him, the wave wasn't aimed directly at him the fact that its called a "wave" is a testament to that, and the book describes it as a:
"Massive shock wave"
Adding to that given what we've seen from the wave it travels outward in every direction, Bane simply points his forward.

Yes. We do indeed SEE force waves in KotoR. An observation that contradicts your conclusion that they hit targets instantly.

Instantly again may be to strong a word but fast enough that the opponent is given a split second to react, yeah. Which is still faster then any indication were given off Kuns beams. As I've said Revan can simply block them or move out the way.

I have no point ? As it seems you are the person here who desperately tries to compare apples to oranges to draw some random conclusions. Bane's force attack was obviously not only directed at Kas'im but as well against the temple. Hence you first would need to quantify the amount of destructive energy that was really armed at Kas'im.

"The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'ims body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid." - POD pg 245

Your Ignorance of the source material is amazing.

You might again tell me if more power is needed to collapse a building or to instantly vaporize some nice part of the structure.

Blowing up a 20 story temple > putting holes in the walls.

Yeah. Right. Because Kas'im is able to defend himself against some TK attack he must also be able to defend himself against Sith magic attacks coming from Kun.

Yeah.

Against attacks that post-DE-Luke had no sufficient defence against.

Revan could.

Of course we might ignore the fact that Revan on board of the Leviathan had not much denfence against Malak who simply put him into force stasis. If that's how far Revan's uber force defence goes I'm pretty sure he's not going to survive five seconds against Kun.

So wait your gonna take Kun in his prime compared to a padawan Revan who doesn't even know he's Revan with little training in the force. Your wasting my time.

And some notice: You're still comparing apples to oranges.

The force is the the force, no matter what form its in. Understand son?

But of course. Training time. First I might ask where Revan ever had "Sith training". I don't recall some Sith being around to train him. Can it be that Revan is mainly self-taught. Like Luke ?

Yeah, but Revan has a FAR superior knowledge base then Luke or Kun.

And Lukes scraps compares to a planet full of knowledge and the plundered tombs of Korriban plus one on one training with the many of the most powerful Jedi masters in the galaxy...no.

It is ? But assuming that Revan learned everything stored in a planet size storehouse of ancient Sith knowledge in a few years is not ? Double-standarts much ? Luke says himself that he has read Sidious Dark Side Compendium. And that contained pretty much everything that Sidious knew about the Dark Side. Want to contradict Luke's own words or official canon ?

Oh you mean the Dark Side Compendium which contained 2 books and a half written third of a planned 13...Yup EVERY thing Sidious knew...

Your Ignorance of the source material is amazing.

Wow. I personally recall Yoda saying that after the confrontation with Vader Luke would be a fully fledged Jedi Knight.

Which correlates into him knowing how to stop Sith powers how...

No. Revan was determined enough to control his emotions and not fall to the Dark Side of Malachor instantly. Notice how Kun did walk around on Korriban without instantly succumbing to the Dark Side. Which is exactly the same if not a more impressive feat. Unless Malachor was filled with the remains and spirits of hundrets of Ancient Sith Lords.

And Revan does the same.

KotoR force storms are just area effect force lightning. Hope you finally get that into your head.

BlahblahblahblahExar Kun is teh greatest!!!!1111blahblahblahblahHyperboleblahblahblahblahI want Kuns spoogblahablahblah

I really wonder why Revan didn't manage to conquer the freaking republic in 5 years with all the power you want to give him where Kun waltzed into the Republic Senate and came up with dark-side powered weapons of mass destruction which would have been able to do the job on their own, if Ulic hadn't betrayed him. Really. What do you want to argue here ?

Been through this, other then Revan turned against the Republic 3 years after he'd been a Sith Lord what Exar was doing was destroying the Republic what Revan was doing was taking it over. Two different objectives. And notice how Revan again had the brains to NOT try and attack the entire Jedi order as a whole like Kun did. Instead he converted them to the point where they could gather in mass and simply burn him away.

No. The obvious FACTS dictate that Kun mastered Sith Magic. And "plenthora" is now equal to "one" (force drain) - and that one was even known by Kun. Impressive. I wonder why Revan never used that powers.

Been dealt with by DS. And as he said I've yet to see every Sith lining up waiting to learn Magic to take over the galaxy.

Knowledge alone can't make up for ridiculously more natural talent and raw power.

A few things....

1. Ajunta Pall was actually around 3,000 years old by the time he met Revan, so while he was still sane, Kun ended up older.
2. I don't find Bane's force wave particularly impressive, considering it was a 35,000+ year old building, and obviously Kas'ims force shield could block it.
3. While Revan's knowledge surpasses Luke's, it's not by a long shot. Luke learned under Palpatine and then pillaged Ossus.

2. I don't find Bane's force wave particularly impressive, considering it was a 35,000+ year old building, and obviously Kas'ims force shield could block it.

The novel makes it clear that the temple despite its age was in particularly good condition with this:

“The stone was neither worn nor cracked despite its age.”

And considering it had a large energy shield created by the Star Forge to protect it for the about 34,800 or so of those years and the field was only taken down by Revans actions, it had only been exposed to the elements for about 2,000 years. Also noting that the place was nexus of Dark Side energy, that probably had something to do with its mint condition.

3. While Revan's knowledge surpasses Luke's, it's not by a long shot. Luke learned under Palpatine and then pillaged Ossus.

I still don't see how that compares to Revans who has had direct one on one tutelage from the greatest Jedi Masters at the time, who had the complete archives of Dantooine and Coruscant at his disposal, He had Malachor which as noted was a "planet sized sith training ground" on there he found numerous Holocrons and artifacts, adding to that he has Korriban pretty much the apex of Sith knowledge, spirits and artifacts and he plunders that.

I fail to see how Luke who had the few scraps from Ossus his other beforementioned pieces of knowledge and staying under Palpatine for a week or two and reading two of his books somehow compares to Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Which was also known to Kun? Really? Are you talking about that ritual he had to use the entire Massassi race for? Sorry to burst your bubble, but he didn't know the force drain. In fact it's unlikely he knew the force storm, the thought bomb, or any of the other ancient sith techniques, considering he never STUDIED ANYTHING FROM THE ANCIENT SITH other than a sith alchemist. This his hilarious indeed Nai.

Sorry to burst your bubble, dude. Kun constructed the Dark Reaper which is actually based on the force drain technique. And I don't see how that should be possible if Kun didn't know it. And Kun did never study anything from the ancient Sith ? Right. You did notice how Sadow was an Ancient Sith ? You did notice how Kun received all his knowledge ? You did notice how Kun himself noted he had completed his mastery of Sith Magic, when, according to Wedge Antilles in one source that remains without contradiction up until today, „Sith Magic“ is the term used in reference to all „destructive power of the Dark Side of the force“ ?

Sadow was a sith alchemist, a sith magician. Don't even start with this "he had access to everything". As I see it, Ragnos was the last powerful DLOTS before the end of the Golden Age, so to say Sadow had access is foolish, not to mention he wasn't in the Golden Age. So once again, Sadow can throw bricks and turn things into other things. Why? Because he's a sith alchemist, and a magician. Meaning that's ALL he does. What did Kun learn? Sith Alchemy and Magic!

Since Sith Magic is the term used for all destructive abilities of the Dark Side and Sith Alchemy is the term used for the generation of monsters and machines imbued with the Dark Side...may I ask you what kind of knowledge it was, that Sadow, being a Sith Magician and Sith Alchemist had no access to ? And yes. Kun learned Sith Magic and Sith Alchemy which – according to various sources – turns out to be anything that the Ancient Sith had to offer.
And your interpretation of the stuff happening is really funny. You're right that the Golden Age of the Sith Empire did end with Ragnos. However. Sadow did not only live in that time for more than a century, he was also trained by the same person that was obviously the most powerful opponent of Ragnos before he claimed the title of the Dark Lord (Simus).
Just to go even further with the information: From the TOTJ comics it's quite obvious that the spirits of the Ancient Sith Lords did declare that Kun is ready to take the title Dark Lord of the Sith. Obviously Ragnos personally gave that title to Kun as you might remember, labeling him to be the chosen one and basically the instrument to bring a new Golden Age of the Sith.

Gee, considering the fact that Revan was actually the first one to plunder Korriban and the Valley of the Dark Lords, finding nice goodies gives him sith knowledge. I won't debate whether he talked to certain spirits or so, but Korriban was "IT", in terms of finding power from the ancient sith.

But what you're saying is, Kun learned from the works of one ancient sith while Revan had access to much MUCH more in terms of all of Korriban and Malachor V, but he didn't learn anything. Once again, Revan learned VARIOUS ancient sith techniques, while Kun specialized in sith magic/alchemy. And yes, his minions plundered the tombs after Revan.

Again. How often do I have to ask you to substantiate what Revan learned. I've dealt with Korriban already and not let's move on to Malachor V. As Styles has personally quoted, the planet was filled with Sith knowledge. What purpose did that knowledge serve ? The Ancient Sith had put it there for the single reason to train Dark Side adepts, correct ? If Malachor V was the Ancient Sith training facility, may I ask you how Sadow, who was an Ancient Sith Lord, could actually have lived without having knowledge about most techniques actually stored there ? To go even further: How do you think it's possible that somebody who lived in the time of the Ancient Sith for more than a century, was a Sith Lord and later even carried the title of the Dark Lord can have less knowledge about Dark Side techniques than somebody who plunders some knowledge source (essentially a giant graveyard and a „school“ to train newbie Dark Siders) can have more knowledge then him ?

To give you another example once more: Just estimate we're both interested in knowledge about Ancient Egypt. You go and plunder the Valley of the Kings (Korriban) and some school that was visited by Pharaos (Malachor). I stumble across a living mummy that has experienced one of the Pharaos first hand (Nadd) and then I find the personal notes of one of the Pharaos containing everything he did know (things Sadow left behind). What do you think who will have more knowledge about Ancient Egypt later ? You, who just tried to search for artifacts that the Ancient Egyptians left behind or me, who found the diary of one of them and talked to another person who did know them ?

As opposed to "wow Kun learned from one guy's notes and constructed an amulet, he's l337". Yet again. Learning from various sources>learning from one source. Unless of course the quality of Sadow's teachings>anything found on Korriban and Malachor V, which isn't the case. Then again since you're so busy waiting for me to allegedly come up with an argument, I'm still waiting on you, especially since all the facts point to Revan's knowledge base being superior.

Geez, dude.
Korriban was a graveworld. How much knowledge would you except to find on a graveyard ? And Malachor ? You might remember that Traya is refering to the „True Sith“ here. That „True Sith“ were basically a group of Sith that seperated themselves from their brothers that would, later in history, become the progenitors of that what we know as „Ancient Sith“ or the „Ancient Sith Empire“. If the „True Sith“ were totally seperated from the Ancient Sith Empire which was installed by Dark Jedi (obviously more powerful than the basic Sith people around at that time) then this means they must be weaker than the Dark Lords who ruled the ASE. Logic simply dictates that. If the „True Sith“ are the same than the „Ancient Sith“ that would mean that Sadow did either study at Malachor V himself (as it was the place to train Dark Side adepts) or a similar facility. Or he archieved knowledge from a different source which was superior to that available at those places because he was at least one of the two most powerful individuals left in the Ancient Sith Empire after the death of Marka Ragnos.

So how is Revan's knowledge base superior exactly ? Kun was personally taught by Nadd who's descendant Amanoa was in possession of the Holocron of Adas which is pretty much the most precious source for ancient Sith knowledge, somebody can possibly optain. And then he received everything that Sadow left behind. The same Sadow that did not most likely knew everything that could be found on Korriban and Malachor but who also had more than a century to increase his amount of Dark Side knowledge.

Oh so because Kreia said ancient sith, that means all the ancient sith? We've seen how Ludo and Sadow fight, don't count on it. I'm not going to discredit her statement but she did have love for the ancient sith, and there's no proof whatsoever that Sadow was skillful at ANYTHING other tnan alchemy and magic.

Double-standarts much ? There is no proof that Revan had anything in terms of knowledge that surpassed Kun. In fact the abilities of Kun point in the exact opposite direction as Revan did never show us anything compareable in terms of Dark Side abilities.

...cont...

And for the millionth time dipshit, Sadow wasn't the second most powerful anything. Where were all these wonderous dark side users? Oh right, nonexistent. Ragnos apparently was the last one and after he died, his minions became useless. Sorry but I would choose all of the graves of the dark lords over Sadow's alchemical teachings. What exactly did Kun come up with? Creating his leeto beasts? Revan was within a hairsbreadth of destroying the Republic by force. Kun couldn't even get close even with Ulic NOT betraying him.

LMFAO. First rule of the Ancient Sith Empire: The strongest shall rule. Obviously Sadow and Kressh are the most powerful people in the Ancient Sith Empire after the death of Marka Ragnos. And Sadow ? Really. The guy was able of floating three planets with tangible (!) illusions that did pretty much ensure his complete victory over the forces of the Republic and Emperess Teta all at once and this in a single day. He would have brought the Republic down without Gav's betrayal. The guy created solar-flares and had a space ship capable of detonating star-systems. Not powerful enough ?

And Kun ? Kun came up with the Dark Reaper which was completely unstoppable before Ulic betrayed Kun and told the Jedi how to stop it. That little machine alone would have exterminated any opposition Kun would have faced. And of course Kun also had Sadow's flagship and was very well able to use it. Being capable to rip the core of a sun off should be enough „fire-power“ to take the Republic by force. Aside of the fact that Kun is the only Sith that did sucessfully attack Coruscant. And we also may notice how Kun was capable of freezing ten-thousands or millions of beings on the spot in the senate. He could have dealt with entire armies on his own by simply using that power. This all in the time span of six months after taking the path down to the Dark Side.

Revan ? Really. After five years with unlimited ships and droids, the uber Dark Side knowledge you want to equip him with and his military genious (which was at least present) he failed to counter the Battle Meditation of a Padawan and not only that – he obviously also failed to really take the Republic over. So where are his archievements. Defeating the Mandalorians ? Defeating Malak ?

That Revan gathered no knowledge from? A nice way to see a failing argument, by talking about an amnesiac during his quest to figure out who and what he was. Guess what big boy, his teachings alone surpassed any of the teachings on Korriban. I don't see sith lords trying to learn sith magic and alchemy in order to destroy the galaxy.

Oh. You don't see Sith Lords trying to learn Sith Magic and Alchemy in order to destroy the Galaxy. Right. As Sith Magic is “any destuctive Dark Side ability” and Sith Alchemy was used to come with rediculously powerful superweapons or monstrosities, I wonder what else a Sith Lord would learn to do anything.

Uh no, they USED all the jedi, that doesn't mean they needed them all. I love this stupid old Antedeluvian argument about "they required ALL the Jedi". No, they used all the Jedi to make sure Kun stayed in his cute little temple. And yes Nihilus and Traya were unstoppable. Lovely argument though, seeing as how only a wound in the force would be able to stop Nihilus. We don't have too many of those huh?

And where did you get the idea from that only a wound in the force can stop Nihilus ? Anybody capable of resisting a force drain or put some defence up against it would be able to survive it. As I said: The Dark Reaper, created by Kun, did use that technique. That would mean that the particular knowledge to resist a force drain was in the hands of Kun himself (obvious), Ulic (who gave it to the Republic), Nomi, Cay and Anakin Skywalker (who received the knowledge from Ulic). We could add post-NJO Luke as well as some of the more powerful NJO members. DE Sidious. Not that it has anything to do with this argument, as Revan himself wouldn't have been able to stop Kreia or Nihilus the way you want to have them appear here.

Awwww Nai how cute. Trying to weaken Revan's credibility with irrelevant misdirection. Since when was Sidious in this argument? Sidious is miles above and beyond Kun and Revan, but thanks for the useless post. And yes, Revan used a force storm that BAne needed the brotherhood of darkness for.

Give me the SOURCE for Revan using a force storm. The only thing coming close to it is KotoR where one of the Rakatan said that he called lightning from the sky. The “force storm” in the KotoR games is clearly defined as Area Effect Force lightning and nothing else.

While Kun was what, a master of force lightning. What a winner. Guess what though, Kun's creations have nothing to do with 1 on 1 combat. That's like saying Jacen is a force god because he can flow walk. And Kun froze the senate, WOW. I guess C'Baoth is a force god as well. And if you really are trying to tell us that Kun achieved more than Revan, you're dumber than I thought. Kun was nowhere near Revan in achievements, much less knowledge.

Revan was a master of...no technique you can name. Pathetic. Don't attack my position. Defend your own one. Something I asked from you multiple times now and which you – up to this point – didn't manage to do. Somehow this looks like as if you can't do it which leads to the question: Why are you even trying to debate with me ?

So again, you have no argument. "Wake the **** up" TOTJ fanboy. IF I want someone verbally fellating Kun with a pitiful argument, I can contact IKC.

If you consider you hilarious lack of knowledge displayed above to be an “argument” you might want to check a dictionary. Aside of that: STFU, noob.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I concede that point but, really Vodo teaching an unknown amount of students, with an unknown amount of power is somehow better then what anyone has said about Revan? If were going to go that route theres a 5000+ year old spirit that says Revans raw power as a padawan was literally blinding him.

Oh. Want to argue the comments of spirits. Ok. According to Nadd, Ulic is „one of the greatest ones“ (refering to all force users the Galaxy has seen so far) and Kun is „even greater“.

Seriously. Again, if your gonna go the route of twisting little facts to suite your argument then I will to, how is it then that Maul managed to own your little "leet" TMP Kenobi AND his teacher who was noted as being on par with Mace Windu, at the same time? How is it then that Maul managed to kill previous said master with relative ease? Kenobi went toe to toe with Maul because Maul let him, and his arrogance cost him the battle, simple as that.

Ah yes. So Maul let Kenobi cut his lightsaber into pieces ? Interesting interpretation. I bet he also let Kenobi jump out of that pit and kill him. No wait. Doesn't make sense. And weren't we actually talking about AotC Kenobi ?

Big whoop, Yoda praised his skill and yet he still got his ass beat by Dooku, and a few years later when he fully masters Soresu he becomes an actual threat to Dooku in saber combat. Oh and he beat Jango Fett...and a kid...OMGZ he is teh bestest EVAR! Really where are you trying to go with this, we can logically assume that ANYONE at Obi Wans level or above placed in the same situation could have mimicked whatever Obi Wan did and thensome.

Funny shit. You notice that Dooku was one of the most powerful people the Order ever had as a Jedi, even more powerful as a Sith ? You noticed that Dooku was extremely focused on his duelling skill hence he was descriped of the master of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Hence nobody, with the exception of Yoda and Anakin, did ever best him in a lightsaber fight ? Notice how Lucas descriped the PT period as being the „golden age of the Jedi“ and notice how, canonically, the only people in that time period (even in AotC) above Obi-Wan in terms of duelling abilities are Mace, Yoda, Depa, Dooku, Sidious, Kit Fisto (as seen in Cestus Deception) and Cin Drallig (most likely).

The entire point was that you wanted to question the title „master swordsman“ without having any reason to actually do so with the single exception to attack characters who were descriped as such.

Accept she didn't, and we CAN assume that he was playing with her as he WTFPWNS her master the noted lightsaber duelist Cin Darllig with one damn hand.

You might actually accept that she was attept to the only style who even topped Djem So in terms of aggressive movements, namely Juyo with the additional exotic thing being that she used that while dual wielding two lightsabers. And you can also accept that any situation which almost leads to the death of one of the characters can't be considered as „toying“. Really. If you're really toying an opponent you should be completely invincible for him regardless of what he pulls off and you should be able to redicoulsy own him in any situation. What Vader did to Luke in ESB might be considered as „toying“ but a fight in which Anakin did almost lose his head and just luckily managed to survive ? Nope. The fact that Anakin did kill Cin Drallig doesn't matter here.

Why are you asking me to prove your bullshit?

What about presenting me an exact definition of being „the heart of the force“. The point is that the title was only given to exceptional swordfighters which were clearly ranking among the most versatile and deadliest lightsaber fighters of their respective era or among the best lightsaber wielders the Galaxy had seen up to that point.

And how in the hell does at the time the quote is given to Exar Kun, someone who hasn't even completed his lightsaber training under Vodo fit into that little category? And I'll ask you again where the f*ck does that leave Exar Kun on the totem pole? Is he at Kit Fisto's level? Or is it Tinn's? Or maybe Windu or Anakins level (hell no)? I'm STILL waiting.

How can you still be under the delusion that Kun has not finished his lightsaber training under Vodo after he did actually defeat his master and after Vodo called him the most formidable student he ever had ? This after those lightsaber fights were all done to actually test IF Kun has mastered the art of lightsaber combat.

And since Kun came up with a new style and displayed knowledge of several forms it's rather save to assume that he was closer to the like of Dooku, Anakin or Mace than to the likes of Kit Fisto. For all we know he and Ulic were the two most skilled lightsaber duellist during the time of the TOTJ comics. At least I don't see anything to suggest something different.

Did I claim Revan was 1337 omfg in lightsaber skills? Nope. But is he logically pretty damn good? Yup, Considering he destroy's the 12 Dark Jedi by himself you HAVE to fight the three guarding the entrance after coming from Naga Sadows tomb, then your alone when you enter the Academy and 9 Sith attack you right away (your allies are tied up fighting the other guards) he does all this AFTER coming off a battle with two Terekanteks (sp) whom one alone takes a squad of skilled jedi hunters to even confront, battling Uthar Wynn the headmaster of the Sith Academy THEN fighting and Redeeming Yuthura Ban. Now either he does all this because of his amazing force abilities allow him to not even be touched and he doesn't even tire, or he's as I said pretty damn good with a lightsaber.

And now please give me a testament of the lightsaber skills of all the people he faced...
Or even better: Proof that he did all that with a lightsaber and his force powers alone. I remember that the game had a nice amount of gimmicks ranging from health packs to thermal detonators to help him doing the job. And by the way...I might be wrong here, though. But if you let Yuthura live doesn't that result in the students of the Sith Academy not attacking you ?

Other then that, theres the face that how good you are with the force directly correlates into lightsaber ability and since where given constant quotes of Revans force power to the point that it was blinding and you could literally see the force moving around him, we can logically assume that based of this he's pretty damn sweet with a lightsaber.

Did you get anything compareable to being „the darkest power in the Galaxy“ (omniscient narrator on Kun), or being „even greater“ than „one of the greatest ones“ (Nadd on Kun) ?

Aside from that were told by Vandar that Revan had an insatiable appetite for knowledge and power, why then would he limit this to only knowledge of the force and NOT lightsaber form and style? Finally he was whored off to so many Jedi Masters and your going to tell me he learned nothing of saber combat? I'd assume he was around but a little less then Dooku in lightsaber combat.

Oh. He was around but a little less then Dooku, one of the most powerful Jedi the Order ever produced and who dedicated his entire life to mastering the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat ? Urm...no...Not in terms of raw swordsplay.

Your habit of twisting things is getting quite annoying. First off we don't know how many Jedi were on the strike team as were never shown the their starting group only the final FOUR Jedi left to confront Revan.

Does it matter ? We know that none of the masters was a member of said strike team. And where did you see four Jedi ? I just remember that picture here: showing three of them (Bastila included).

Also every Jedi shown in that scene pops in late which we can assume they were held up by the other large number of Dark Jedi on Revans FLAGSHIP. With that said we don't know how many died on the way to get to Revan there could have been 20 Jedi in that strike team for all we know.

And still no Council Member present.

We also don't know the particular rank of the other three Jedi left, they could have all been Masters. We do know Bastila was only choosen for the mission because of her Battle Meditation. What I wonder is how long it takes you to come up with these ridicules points?

Did I mention already that there was no council member present ? And yeah. Bastila's battle meditation obviously would have done the entire job. Except for the fact that a more experienced (and therefore more powerful) Bastila was not capable of doing anything to Darth Malak who was (again obviously) less powerful than Darth Revan. I wonder why they didn't send their finest swordsman (the likes of Vrook and Kavar) to support Bastila especialy when they knew about Revan's skills and knew that there would possibly be other Dark Jedi to fight before reaching him.

While Impossible may have been to strong a word, your really gonna sit here an compare all the Echani high generals to f*cking THRAWN?

No. I'm going to say that Thrawn is above those Echani generals. He was the „most able commander“ of Palpatine's Imperial military surpassing the likes of Vader, Tarkin and the Emperor himself in terms of command ability and battle prediction. What did the Echani high generals ever do so far ?

Hate to break it to you but all the Generals you mentioned were fighting against forces they were relatively familiar with, Alexander and the Persians, which behaved in an very predictable manner, and Alexanders tactics of slam the front with the Phalanx and circle around with the Companion calvary were revolutionary for that period in a time were you were you had a set battle field that you weren't expected to leave. As well as Hannibal and the Roman legion.

But I'd like you to show me were Alexander or any of the others mentioned predicted the entire course of a war that could span years? Oh thats right...they didn't/can't.

Can you remind me once again what enemies your Echani generals ever fought ? And all we have about their so called abilities is the comment of...an Echani. Yay. I wonder if you can find some more biased source. The special thing about the Echani was that their entire culture was built around fighting and combat. The same can be said about Sparta in Ancient times. How does that grant them special abilities like foresight ? Even in later times they just were famous for their melee combat skills hence many people (e.g. Emperor's Hands and the Royal Guard) trained the corresponding fighting styles. But if all you can give me on that uber Echani prediction abilities is a quote about one of them given by his own daughter – I'm not going to consider this to be important. And even if he had precognition abilities – how would that help him against a being who can push his strength and speed far above any regular human due to force abilities. That apart from the possibility that Revan could have just force choked him to death.

We've been through this...to the point that it made him "nearly unstoppable"

And as I said: That reference was given to other people in the SW universe including the likes of Grievous, Durge and Vader. Of course he was „nearly unstoppable“ but where does that put him in the great scheme of things ?

The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. - Databank

Which was obviously life energy as the only effect of it was that he refilled his health bar.

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion - Wizards of Coast

Out of what proportion exactly ?

If your going that route then Revan has the skill to toss his saber and fend of Malak at the same time.

Or he has the uber skill to run away from Malak while holding his saber in a position that would result in slicing those trapped Jedi into pieces. Can Revan walk and think at the same time ?

Not that it even matters, notice how Malak easily put Bastila in a stasis for a long ass time all the while fighting with Revan at the same time. Bastila was the true prize and the objective and Revan was only an extra bonus, Malak felt no real threat from Revan at the time (he doesn't even think he'll return to the Lehon, and he thinks the droids on the Star Forge would kill him.)

Notice how he does the same thing to Revan...

Where was he called completely unstoppable? That doesn't even make sense as he was you know...stopped. Single most powerful entity in the galaxy at the time while impressive, so was Revan.

By all Jedi in the Galaxy...yes...oh well...not really considering how he stayed alive even after that.
Revan obviously wasn't the most powerful guy around as Kreia pretty much said that the „True Sith“ would still be a considerable threat for him where Kun is even put above them by having the omniscient narrator mentioning that he is the „darkest power in the Galaxy“.

I'm glad we have the mental capacity to differentiate hyperbole from fact and hyperbole from a ridicules source, you do know your quoting a random Rodian merchant...

Which is obviously the same as quoting an Echani about...an Echani...

That is where you fail. Once again your stretching and exaggerating things, unless you simply want me to assume that every strong force user got sent straight to Vodo, if thats the case why the hell is he training Sylvar and Crado and why isn't Ulic Qel Droma there?

Nice job ignoring the rest of the quotes...

One might ask why your so damn stupid. Seeing as you missed the entire point of Revans fall and the Jedi Civil War, Revan wasn't trying to create weapons of Mass Destruction to rip apart the Republic he was trying to keep the infrastructure relatively intact, so when he did take over he'd have a stable economy, army, and legions of force users to do his bidding. One might ask what the f*ck Exar Kun was trying to accomplish, What is his goal? To take over the Republic? He certainly was failing at that especially when he went around blowing up its star systems. Was it to kill all the Jedi? Didn't even come close. Was it to recreate the Sith Empire? Ending the Republic is all fine and dandy but then what...he's left with a half destroyed galaxy, and a cult of force users on Yavin following him with no real government or economy to follow that. Looks like he fails again. At least Revan like Palpatine had the brains to understand that you can't destroy and tear apart the only galactic wide governmental body if you want to rule said galaxy. Especially if you don't even have your own govt. to replace or relocate it.

Obviously you didn't get the point. What did Revan want to archieve ? During the Mandalorian Wars his goal was to end the Mandalorian thread forever (meaning to destroy them). Taking over the Republic. Once again: The point behind that action was that he wanted to utilize the Republic's resources to go and challenge the Ancient Sith or at least enable the Republic to defend against the thread that they (supposely) posed. Now put Kun in the same position. He would have completely crushed the Mandalorians without effort and without years of combat. Do you doubt that ? The „True Sith“ ? Obviously nothing compared to him as he was (as the omniscient narrator stated) „the darkest power in the Galaxy“.
And it's nice how you mention Sidious here. Did you ever watch ANH where it's mentioned that the Emperor has closed the Senate and gave command to the Moffs instead ? Kun didn't have to destroy the Republic. He could very well have done it in the Tarkin fashion of archieving power through fear. The Dark Reaper couldn't have been stopped without Ulic's betrayal (quite enough to kill all the Jedi if needed) and who would have dared to oppose somebody capable of wiping sun-systems from existance rather easily ?

Yes I'm sure that lightsaber crystals that don't respond to Dark Side users would be a real help to Exar Kun. Use your damn head for once.

Which of course isn't true for the „Mantle of the Force“ and the „Heart of the Guardian“...

This is getting too damn annoying, that comic was written what 10 or so years BEFORE KOTOR2. And Kreia says that the True Sith at that time were inactive, and no one in the known galaxy knew of them, not even Exar Kun that statement in the context its in and in light of newer sources makes it rather irrelevant.

You know that the point about an omniscient narrator is that he is...you know...omniscient. And you noticed how Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd did both pretty much label Kun and Ulic as being the two greatest followers of Sith teachings around at that time. And that while at least Nadd was free to roam the Galaxy as it seems ?
Your personal interpretation of the statements given in KotoR 2 doesn't change anything here. The True Sith are obviously not as powerful as Kun was.

Oh wow he can swing sabers and he can slam them on a stick...BAWH GOD KANG! HE A JAR KAI MASTA!!! Really little buddy , if were gonna base arguments on arsine assumptions like that, then Revan is too since if you give him anther saber he can swing em around all fancy and perrdy like...so he two must be a Jar Kai masta.

Oh my...
As you may notice he's rotating his blades (from the normal to a downward pointing position) while duelling. He also does that when wielding a single lightsaber. If you would knew anything about fencing (and of course you don't as you don't know anything) similar manouvers are just utilized by quite fancy swordmasters which also applies to Jar'Kai manouvers (so the use of two blades at once) in general. On a side note: Kun is obviously the first individual shown in the SW universe who did ever fight with two weapons at the same time.

Take Kuns nuts out your mouth and wake up, the ONLY thing were shown is Kun slamming his saber up and down like an idiot, in his other duels were at LEAST given two panels of movement so we can assume something else went on, however with this panel the only thing were shown is Kun as I said swinging lika a retard beating a pinata. Get it? What we can deduce from that scene is Exar ignited his saber and proceeded to start hammering down. Thats NO indication of a style or form what so ever, what do you not get about it? Is Kuns jizz covering your eyes again?

As I said: Astonishing ignorance of the source material.
Can you see how Kun is holding his blades ? He's holding his weapon upside down in the fight with Crado and while dual wielding against Vodo later. As you might actually find out it's always preferable for a duellist to have a high guard and be able to strike from above. Can we agree on that point ? Yet Kun simply sacrifices that usually prefered position for reasons that I really can't understand (since that obviously results in a weaker defence and also in less attack power) but despite of that he's still able to tool Crado and hold Vodo at bay. Yet in his fight with Vodo he obviously rotates the blades multiple times. Do you know who the only other person in the SW universe is that did something similar during a fight ? Mace Windu in his fight with Sidious while using just one blade.

Canon says Ajunta Pall didn't attack Revan. Canon says Ajunta Pall was redeemed by Revan. Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing. And he wasn't insane, he bowed and spoke to Revan, gave him details of his life of meeting Revan before and of his sword and in the end he was redeemed. Thats hardly the traits of an insane person. One might ask why Kun became a raving lunatic after only 4000 years yet Pall was able to stay sane far longer then that?

It's nice how he's completely rejecting all Sith teaching before Revan really „redeems“ him. And aside of that he was obivously insane because his own blade prevented him from becoming one with the force for 3,000 years.

Darth Sexy has already handled this, Kun went to Korriban fell and left, unless you have some source saying other wise then I'd advise you to shut the f*ck up on the matter, Revan however went to Korriban and plundered it, Ajunta Pall even recalls seeing him before.

I wonder how Revan managed to plunder „thousands“ of tombs personally and learn everything he found there in about five years. That's not even asking why somebody should actually put source for knowledge into f*cking GRAVES.

Oh you mean in the middle of an elaborate ritual in which he had to give his life to even attempt...yeah that'd be helpful.

I don't recall where Kun went through a ritual to construct the Dark Reaper (the force draining machinery) or to freeze the Senate. I really must have missed that. Same with the source that shows us how Revan does something compareable.

And yet it still went on...for 4000 years no less...go figure...

Nice way of ignoring the actual point: Revan did never come close to doing anything compareable.

Your boring me, play KOTOR2 again. Kreia sums it up nicely with "The Mandalorian Wars were wars of conversion" the point of that was to break as many Jedi to his side without alerting the attention of the Jedi. And KOTOR and every other source says it quite nicely that Revan had steam rolled over the outer rim and was on his way to to start taking the Mid Rim and Core Worlds. Guerrilla tactics...no why the hell would he need that when he had a LIMIT LESS supply of ships and droids. Your ignorance of the source material is really astonishing.

You noticed how Revan did sent Sith Assassins to kill Jedi, HK droids to kill politicians and did everything to destabilize certain planets / sectors which is, as you might know, guerilla warfare. And the Jedi Civil War was mentioned as being a war of conversion, not the Mandalorian Wars. As you might have noticed, the fall of Revan and Malak to the Dark Side happened during the Mandalorian Wars and not before it so you're obviously wrong here.

The amulet allowed him to do so...

Is the amulet beam a force attack: Yes or no ? Either you want to tell me that is it not (in which case Revan has no defence against it and would be killed) or you want to tell me that this is a force attack but stronger than an attack coming from all Jedi in the Galaxy (in which case Revan would be toast again).

Revan > Naad. Simple as that. Revans defense > Naads defense.

When you show me where Revan managed to destroy armies on his own and when you show me that Revan had access to Adas's holocron (the greatest source of Sith knowledge that exists) like Nadd, I will agree with that statement. Until then, somebody who's capable of flooring Jedi Masters on the other side of the Galaxy, instakill Sith Magicians and crush Exar Kun pretty much – this all while being a „powerless spirit“ - will be rated higher by me than Revan.

Revan spent 5 years off and on going to Malachor and Korriban. And no she doesn't speak of Sadow as a god, the only thing relevant she says about him is he nearly won the Great Hyperspace War. Your ignorance of the source material is amazing.

Do I have to quote her sentence about the Ancient Masters once again ? Sadow was capale of winning a war on three planet simultaneously while 90 % of his forces did actually consist of tangible illusions. Give me something coming closer to „godlike“...

You mean Luke who 3 years prior to DE after being owned in the force by the Witches of Dathromir says that if Vader wanted to he could have done the same...maybe just maybe...Vader was holding back...

You mean Luke, who by DE, was definetly more powerful than ROTJ Vader which is, what actually does matter here, since his confrontation with Kun's freaking spirit happened post-DE ?

Adding Bane probably not, the large majority of the Brotherhood were complete weaklings Bane notes in POD that one of them was so weak and insignificant that he didn't even remember his name, let me remind you that the almost all of the Brother hood consisted of barley training Sith students. It'd be something close to that though.

I love how you consequently ignored the fact that a 5-year-old untrained girl was able to resist that attack that should destroy Exar Kun instantly as you suggested. Thanks a lot. And they might be as weak as possible. They were powerful enough to be trained as Sith and if Revan had a hard time to defeat Malak with additional power from 8 (or 9) Jedi I wonder where you range somebody who has the power of 26 other people to back him up. Not to mention again that we never saw Revan doing anything even remotely compareable to that attack.

Context my oh so unintelligent friend...context...

Ah yes. Context. I don't know where you do see a context between „I'm old“ and Odan's possible force mastery, oh genious and epitome of interpretation skills. Would a younger Odan have been able to stop “the darkest power in the Galaxy” ?

You can't make an assumption then assume I agree with it dipshit. Considering a Jedi can dodge a blaster bolt easily regardless of the size of the blasts Revan should be able to do the same.

Tell that to Jedi Council Member Coleman Trebor who was apparently gunned down by Jango Fett with a blaster in AotC. I don't have to make assumptions...I have the facts on my side.

And yet he never even attempts the same attack he did on Yavin, meaning unleashing that type of attack is too much for him and he has limits with it, does that exclude him from the other attacks he has with it? No, and I never claimed it did. But the point is he isn't going to sit perched up and start shooting.

Oh...those double-standarts. One must love them.
So because Kun never saw any reason to unleash room-size beams ripping apart anything in their way again, he was unable of doing so ? In the same manner I could claim that Revan is unable to use any sort of force power he was not shown to use which would put the upper range of his abilities to unleashing area-effect force lightning. But of course...that would be stupid and I'm not you.

I thought it was made quite clear but it seems I'll have to spell everything out for you.He completely blocked what came at him, the wave wasn't aimed directly at him the fact that its called a "wave" is a testament to that, and the book describes it as a:
"Massive shock wave"
Adding to that given what we've seen from the wave it travels outward in every direction, Bane simply points his forward.

I'd really like to see somebody aiming a „massive shock wave“ completely at one individual. „Hey...I, and nothing else, was hit by the power of that nuclear bomb“.

Instantly again may be to strong a word but fast enough that the opponent is given a split second to react, yeah. Which is still faster then any indication were given off Kuns beams. As I've said Revan can simply block them or move out the way.

Do I have to point at Coleman Trebor once again. Jedi have been shown to be unable to dodge regular sized blaster bolts. A room sized energy beam is another topic. And I'm still waiting for you to give me a convincing argument, how somebody, who is not capable of defending himself against a force stasis attack, should be able to block an energy beam that seems to be able to deal some huge amount of damage and exterminate a Sith spirit and that keeps increasing his power with every single use of the amulet.

"The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'ims body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid." - POD pg 245

Your Ignorance of the source material is amazing.

May I point out once again that Kun simply vaporized Massassi which would definetly need more energy than crushing somebodies bones.

Blowing up a 20 story temple > putting holes in the walls.

Bane didn't blow it up. He made it collapse. Kun desintegrated walls.

Yeah.

Nope. Different attacks and hence not compareable. Thanks.

Revan could.

Revan was unable to avoid being put into force stasis. Anything else ?

So wait your gonna take Kun in his prime compared to a padawan Revan who doesn't even know he's Revan with little training in the force. Your wasting my time.

Urm. Yeah. Considering how the only thing happening after the Leviathan episode is Revan's visit to Rakata prime I wonder where this is „Padawan Revan“ with „little training in the force“.

The force is the the force, no matter what form its in. Understand son?

Obviously that is not the case. Check out the comments on force storms in the DE comics editoral. Diffent applications of force energy aren't compareable.

Yeah, but Revan has a FAR superior knowledge base then Luke or Kun.

A claim DS and you are still failing to provide proof for. Pretty boring.

And Lukes scraps compares to a planet full of knowledge and the plundered tombs of Korriban plus one on one training with the many of the most powerful Jedi masters in the galaxy...no.

Again. Just for you. DE Sidious had all and I mean all Dark Side force knowledge available in the entire Galaxy ranging from Sith teachings to stuff he invented himself. He stored the most important in his Dark Side Compendium. And Luke did read all of it. That's how much knowledge Luke has. And please...Jedi knowledge ? Luke had an complete Jedi training facility equipped with multiple holocrons and copies of almost everything important stored in the temple archieves this aside from communicating with at least Obi-Wan's and Yoda's spirits (the later one being the most powerful enemy of the Dark Side the galaxy has known so far).

DS dealt with this.

Where ?

Except Revan has knowledge AND ridiculously more natural talent and raw power.

Ahaha. Since when ? Again a claim you have no proof for. Kun has been noted by Nadd to be one of the greatest force users the Galaxy has seen so far (in a 21,000 year history of force using indivudals up to that point) and according to the Dark Lord of the Sith (Marka Ragnos) had archieved enough power and knowledge to come up with a new Golden Age of the Sith. Notice what that term means. This simply puts him above Revan. In fact it puts him on one level with Marka Ragnos himself. You think Revan can top that...I wonder how.

Actually Borbarad there was one planet after the leviathan and there a was fourth jedi in the strike if you close during the cutscene one can be seen running behind the other jedi. Not that it really matters.

Holy shiznit! I don't think I've every seen a post that long.

Originally posted by Borbarad
LMFAO. First rule of the Ancient Sith Empire: The strongest shall rule. Obviously Sadow and Kressh are the most powerful people in the Ancient Sith Empire after the death of Marka Ragnos. And Sadow ? Really. The guy was able of floating three planets with tangible (!) illusions that did pretty much ensure his complete victory over the forces of the Republic and Emperess Teta all at once and this in a single day. He would have brought the Republic down without Gav's betrayal. The guy created solar-flares and had a space ship capable of detonating star-systems. Not powerful enough ?

And Kun ? Kun came up with the Dark Reaper which was completely unstoppable before Ulic betrayed Kun and told the Jedi how to stop it. That little machine alone would have exterminated any opposition Kun would have faced. And of course Kun also had Sadow's flagship and was very well able to use it. Being capable to rip the core of a sun off should be enough „fire-power“ to take the Republic by force. Aside of the fact that Kun is the only Sith that did sucessfully attack Coruscant. And we also may notice how Kun was capable of freezing ten-thousands or millions of beings on the spot in the senate. He could have dealt with entire armies on his own by simply using that power. This all in the time span of six months after taking the path down to the Dark Side.

Revan ? Really. After five years with unlimited ships and droids, the uber Dark Side knowledge you want to equip him with and his military genious (which was at least present) he failed to counter the Battle Meditation of a Padawan and not only that – he obviously also failed to really take the Republic over. So where are his archievements. Defeating the Mandalorians ? Defeating Malak ?

Oh. You don't see Sith Lords trying to learn Sith Magic and Alchemy in order to destroy the Galaxy. Right. As Sith Magic is “any destuctive Dark Side ability” and Sith Alchemy was used to come with rediculously powerful superweapons or monstrosities, I wonder what else a Sith Lord would learn to do anything.

You are obviously not even getting the “stupid old Antedeluvian argument”. The Jedi considered Kun such a huge thread that they immediately send all the Jedi in the Galaxy to stop them. Of course they most likely didn't need them all. The point is: They suggested that they might need them all. What did they sent in against Revan ? A strike force that (for all we know) consisted of a Padawan and some other – unknown – people. This when the Jedi did sent multiple Council Members to stop the likes of Sidious, Volfe and all forces available against Kun.

And where did you get the idea from that only a wound in the force can stop Nihilus ? Anybody capable of resisting a force drain or put some defence up against it would be able to survive it. As I said: The Dark Reaper, created by Kun, did use that technique. That would mean that the particular knowledge to resist a force drain was in the hands of Kun himself (obvious), Ulic (who gave it to the Republic), Nomi, Cay and Anakin Skywalker (who received the knowledge from Ulic). We could add post-NJO Luke as well as some of the more powerful NJO members. DE Sidious. Not that it has anything to do with this argument, as Revan himself wouldn't have been able to stop Kreia or Nihilus the way you want to have them appear here.

Give me the SOURCE for Revan using a force storm. The only thing coming close to it is KotoR where one of the Rakatan said that he called lightning from the sky. The “force storm” in the KotoR games is clearly defined as Area Effect Force lightning and nothing else.

Revan was a master of...no technique you can name. Pathetic. Don't attack my position. Defend your own one. Something I asked from you multiple times now and which you – up to this point – didn't manage to do. Somehow this looks like as if you can't do it which leads to the question: Why are you even trying to debate with me ?

If you consider you hilarious lack of knowledge displayed above to be an “argument” you might want to check a dictionary. Aside of that: STFU, noob. [/B]

Oh, and as for NAi making up shit about Kun and Nadd being the strongest Sith in 21,000 years or whatever that is, B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T. Get a clue Nai.

Ahaha. Since when ? Again a claim you have no proof for. Kun has been noted by Nadd to be one of the greatest force users the Galaxy has seen so far (in a 21,000 year history of force using indivudals up to that point) and according to the Dark Lord of the Sith (Marka Ragnos) had archieved enough power and knowledge to come up with a new Golden Age of the Sith. Notice what that term means. This simply puts him above Revan. In fact it puts him on one level with Marka Ragnos himself. You think Revan can top that...I wonder how. [/B]

OR it means Revan wasn't a full sith, and created his own sith empire to fight the "True Sith". He had no need to recreate or even find the ancient sith empire. Yes, Ragnos crowned him, wow. I guess he's more powerful than Sidious, because Sidious wasn't crowned. At that time he was the most powerful force user in the galaxy. Then Revan came along, destroyed Kun in ancient sith knowledge, to establish what needed to, and basically destroyed the republic and the Jedi, seeing as how there were less than 100 Jedi left after the JCW. Yea, Kun's ejeet. Tool.