Effects...just "icing" on the cake? (or) not comparable to playing Bach?

2 points here...(quoting my other post)

1) It was said on another thread that using effects (say, with a guitar) is just "icing" on the cake. I diagree that's ALWAYS the case...and I don't even necessarily think you can always say there is an "icing" and "cake".

I gave the example of "How Soon is Now" by The Smiths...a song that's iconic in large part to the way the effects were used to make the guitars sound so completely kick-ass. The actual guitar playing that's being done is dead simple...but what gives the chords personality, creativity, and makes the artist achieve his vision is the effects (and more specifically, the creative way in which they were actually used).

If effects are indeed the icing, then I guess the actual guitar playing (supposedly the cake) would have to be something more special, complicated, or innovative than what the effects are doing. But that isn't the case in "How Soon is Now". The effects take centre stage and are the thing that have been used in a creative and innovative way, NOT the guitar playing. If ANYTHING, the effects are the cake here (if again there is such a way to differentiate what's "cake" and what's "icing"😉.

It is true however that a lot of (probably most) people can just slap effects on to make themselves sound better than they actually are...that would be "icing". But again, that's not always the case. The effect ITSELF won't make an instrument sound cool, how you use it will...and if you use it creatively and innovatively enough, it can surpass the importance of what the instrument is doing...as in the above example. The effects ARE the music.

2). It was also argued that you can't compare using effects (pedal/button pushing, knob turning etc...) to doing something like what Segovia does...playing (and transcribing) Bach. I totally disagree.

Of course it's not like there's anything hard about the actual pushing of the buttons or turning of the knobs themselves...(and if you made a direct comparrison to the skill it takes to play an instrument it's obvious which one requires more talent). But the things is, talent isn't just measured in skill on an instrument...that's so shallow. Different people have different talents at different things. Segovia has talent using an instrument and transcribing violin to guitar to play Bach, Pavarotti has talent using an operatic voice to sing arias by Vivaldi, and the Chemical Brothers or Underworld have talent using synths, computers and machines to create new sonics and produce/engineer complex and innovative electronic music.

Take"Rez" by Underworld as way to show how using effects (button pushing, knob turning etc...) take as much talent or is simply as great a thing as doing something like playing or transcribing Bach.

For starters, what techno music is, is really just effects - button pushing, knob turning, playing with frequencies and filters etc...You don't have to know how to play an instrument well (or even at all) to make techno. And I hope no one thinks that this gives it any less value or means techno requires any less talent...talent is found in different ways.

Some techno I've heard (and I mean only "some"😉 I easily put up there with some of the other greatest achievements in music...simply because it's SO creative, SO innovative AND intricate (not to mention musical). But again, just like tons of people use effects on the guitar to sound better than they really are, lotsa people grab a keyboard and do the same. But if you know tehcno well, you can tell the good from the crap

Now, just listen to this for the 30 secs...(or don't bother reading the rest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WY1qn-k9qE

What you have there is a 16 bar riff that gets repeated over an over, getting tweaked and varied more and more throughout the song (although to the untrained ear I'm sure it just sounds random). THAT 16 bar riff has a distinct, particular melody that includes inticate off-beats, augmented orchestration, complicated off-time rythms...and it even builds off the first half (8 bars) of itself to make the whole 16 bars make a kind of sense. And the list goes on as to how a creative, complicated and innovative piece of music it actually is. And what MAKES this piece of music so phenominal isn't any type of playing or transcribing...IT IS button pushing and IT IS knob turning, etc...If you "get" the song, it's pure genius...and if you're in the right state of mind and that thing comes on, it can honestly sound like THE most beautiful thing you've ever heard in your life...and it achieves this by the musicians having been extremely creative and innovative with "button pushing "and "knob turning"...something that's a talent all it's own.

So I have to ask the same question...do you know HOW HARD it is to know how to produce and engineer music like that...and to create the purposeful sonic nuances that are made to sound musical...and to lay down the fast and inticate rythms that are there? (which again, I guarantee you aren't there randomly). Do you know how much WORK and TALENT it takes to achieve the greatness that's been achevied with this piece of music sonically? They've made this piece of music from MACHINES (button pushing/knob turning)...the effects ARE the music (which is why I questioned earlier if there's even such a thing as "incing" or "cake" with effects). The guys in Underworld have worked really hard to used their unique talent and skill to make something so incredible....definitley AS incredible as what Segovia does.

Point is...Don't knock "button pushing" or "knob turning"...it's ridiculous! It's music making IN ITSELF!! There CAN be AS MUCH talent involved in the way that is USED as there is in playing an instrument or transcribing...it's just that the talent IS DIFFERENT.

I think the issue is confused.

Effects aren't just frivolous icing, but they aren't as important as what was written. Simple or not, the intro to How Soon Is Now? is great because it's a great piece of writing. What made it sound better than it might otherwise have done, is the effects.

I can see both points, and it's a bit silly to act like effects are just an addition, but they aren't an important part. They can just add something, sometimes. It's a case of whether or not it's significant.

To make it clearer, How Soon Is Now? isn't just some frivolous addition, where as something in NIN probably would be.

-AC

Wrong as usual I'm afraid AC. It's not a great piece of writing...it's a power chord, and you probably don't realize this because you're not that musically inclined.

It's the creative way in which the effect is used that makes it what it is. The song as a whole has good writing in it. But we're talking about what makes the GUITAR part in the song as amazing as it is...(the playing, or the effect)...it's the effect. And I know you might not think it's either of the two, but if anything, the effect IS the writing.

Effects (button pushing/knob turning) can be music making in itself. But I guarantee you wouldn't understand this.

NOTE: It's also not like I've made a big jump in any way from effects on guitar to techno music. The argument was AGAINST knob turning and pedal or button pushing...ie. NOT playing an instrument. So...techno.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Wrong as usual I'm afraid AC. It's not a great piece of writing...it's a power chord, and you probably don't realize this because you're not that musically inclined.

Excuse me? I said it was great writing, and it is. Since when could simplicity not be great? I never said it was complex or technically amazing, I said it was great writing. Many great pieces of music are simple.

Stop making assumptions about me.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
It's the creative way in which the effect is used that makes it what it is. The song as a whole has good writing in it. But we're taling about what makes the guitar sound good...(the playing, or the effect)...it's the effect. If anything, the effect IS the writing.

Johnny Marr wrote the guitar piece, then he added the effect. You might write a guitar piece with an effect in mind, but you cannot write for a pedal, you can write for a guitar.

I know what makes the guitar sound good, but then we get into the discussion of; What is good use of effects?

In some cases it's just icing, in some it's an integral part of the song, not the writing, the finished song. How Soon is Now? features effects that became an integral part of the finished product, but it wasn't written for the pedal, it was written for the guitar.

That's how songwriting goes.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Effects (button pushing/knob turning) can be music making in [B]itself. But I guarantee you wouldn't understand this. [/B]

No, I actually believe that great music can be made on anything, even computers, that's using the computer as an instrument. Pedals are instrumental accessories, and that's what How Soon Is Now? is, an effects pedal.

-AC

ok im going one thing at a time, you wrote too much fluff to sort through in one sitting. First the effects 'argument'

"I know effects are not 'doing all the work' effects are 'icing on the cake'. Who cares if you have shit music and all the effects pedals (and can use them) in the world?"

1)That’s what I said. Now according to you, you said that there really is no 'icing' and 'cake'. Well what I was referring to was this ,"How soon is now" was a good song already. Sure the effects that Johnny Marr used (which were pretty standard for any Smiths song) were not what made the song. Johnny Mar's distinctive way of playing guitar did. I agree the effects he used is what made the song that much better. But there are so many elements to any song, that I doubt the uses of a effects pedals is what made the song “good” by itself. So I used a simple well known analogy 'it's icing on the cake'. 'Icing' meaning the little bit of flavor that effects give to the song, and the 'cake' being the structure and technical aspects of the song itself as well as the talents of the guitarist. Take a GOOD guitarist and take any the flange pedal , you still have a good guitarist, right? Take a flange pedal and give it to a person who doesn’t know how to play guitar, you'll get a shit. See I think you actually agree with this. What about what I JUST wrote is so appalling to you? Because it’s elaboration and IS CONSISTENT with what I said before.

With How Soon is Now, the effect (button pushing/knob turning) IS the writing...and this is BASICALLY what techno is...writing by turning knobs, playing with effects and frequencies, etc...and not even touching an instrument. And it's not in ANY WAY making a big jump from talking about the way effects on guitar can be used (IF used creatively like in HOW Soon is Now) to talking about techno music (knob turning, button pushing).

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The effect (button pushing/knob turning) IS the writing...and this is BASICALLY what techno is...writing by turning knobs, playing with effects and frequencies, etc...and not even touching an instrument.

We were talking about guitarist in that forum. Remember? i was VERY specific about what I was talking about. Did you even read what I just posted? I never mentioned TECHNO once, you did.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The effect (button pushing/knob turning) IS the writing...and this is BASICALLY what techno is...writing by turning knobs, playing with effects and frequencies, etc...and not even touching an instrument. And it's not in ANY WAY making a big jump from talking about the way effects on guitar can be used (IF used creatively like in HOW Soon is Now) to talking about techno music (knob turning, button pushing).

Who's discussing techno? In that case, yes, because it's made using unconventional, but credible, instruments. Such as computers, synths etc.

But who was talking about techno? We're talking about Johnny Marr writing the intro to How Soon Is Now? on a guitar. He used a pedal, he didn't write the music for the pedal because the pedal is not the instrument, the guitar is.

In techno, the instruments are the knobs and buttons, they write it for that. Marr did not write the composition for the song by writing for the pedal, because it's impossible to write for a pedal, it's just a pedal.

Wait...you thought How Soon Is Now? was buttons and knobs, not a pedal?

-AC

Thanks for clearing that up AC. EP, nobody was talking about TECHNO or how effects knobs and such are used in that genre. Say whatever you want about that. I was talking about effects pedals in the 'greatest guitar player in the world forum". I will get to your other argument later, I have things to attend to.

In techno, buttons and knobs are instruments, yes, so what? Nobody's talking about that. You can compose music on those, you can't compose music by sitting there with a wah wah pedal or whatever. You write for guitar, you add the pedal if you want.

Not the other way around. Whether or not it makes the song better or not is chance, it's not written that way.

-AC

IT'S THE SAME THING! You don't get that it is because you aren't able to narrow down what music making is.

I KNEW, I KNEW you two would go ahead and say bringing techno into it is different. But it's NOT. THATS why I said...

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
NOTE: It's also not like I've made a big jump in any way from effects on guitar to techno music. The argument was AGAINST knob turning and pedal or button pushing...ie. NOT playing an instrument. So...techno.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And it's not in ANY WAY making a big jump from talking about the way effects on guitar can be used (IF used creatively like in HOW Soon is Now) to talking about techno music (knob turning, button pushing).

Techno instruments, buttons and knobs, they count, they are instruments. A pedal isn't. The guitar part that this debate started over, was not written for effects, it was written for guitar and Marr decided to add the pedal later.

Was it icing? No, it made the song better. CAN IT BE ICING SOMETIMES? Yes.

Oh, I should have known this'd turn into another "You lot don't get it.".

Oh well, you can play with yourself this time, EP. Keep this attitude up and nobody will want to take part in any thread with you in it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Techno instruments, buttons and knobs, they count, they are instruments. A pedal isn't.

I KNEW you'd say that too...that there's this big difference with a pedal and knob...geez.

The PRINICIPLE is the same. You're playing with the unit. You're adjusting, being creative, innovative with the unit. Doesn't matter if it's a pedal, a button, a knob...whatever. And the argument was against this stuff (which IS the same) vs playing an instrument.

How about a vocoder then AC? Is that the icing on a voice's cake?

NO IT'S NOT, IS IT? The vocoder IS the music making.

Does it not count as an instrument?

Of course it does! IT'S what's being played with tweaked, adjusted in a creative way. The singing itslef is just flat.

MORE proof you're wrong!

And in the case of How Soon is Now, it's the actual sound of the effect, AS WELL AS the pulsating and the rythm GIVEN to the effect (which is music making)...and we don't know if it's a pedal, a knob, an effects unit...whatever. The way IT'S being used is what's being done musically, creatively and is more the "writing" than the simple guitar chord.

You're dead wrong...sorry.

It's not actually a pedal effect.

Just to interrupt.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Well, anyone who knows about music can tell it's a pedal. You obviously made the fatal mistake of thinking "Hmm, this sounds like effects, so it MUST be knobs and buttons.".

Baaahahahaha.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The PRINICIPLE is the same. You're playing with the unit. You're adjusting, being creative, innovative with the unit. Doesn't matter if it's a pedal, a button, a knob...whatever. And the argument was against this stuff (which IS the same) vs playing an instrument.

You WRITE for the instruments used in techno. You can write for a synth, you can write for transcription onto computer composition programs, you cannot write for a pedal. Any musician would know this.

You're talking about writing, and you cannot write for a pedal. It's an instrument in the sense of it is a tool that is used, but it is not played, it is not making sound, it's an addition.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
How about a vocoder then AC? Is that the icing on a voice's cake?

It's the same as a pedal, an addition, a tool. Not something you can write for.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
NO IT'S NOT, IS IT? The vocoder IS the music making.

No, the voice is. You use the vocoder after.

A pedal and a vocoder do not have notes, they do not have strings or keys. They enhance or add to already existing ideas and music, you cannot write music with them. Have you ever tried picking up a guitar pedal and writing music with it?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Does it not count as an instrument?

Not in the same sense as instruments that make music, pedals don't, they ALTER music. Vocoders do not, they ALTER music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Of course it does! IT'S what's being played with tweaked, adjusted in a creative way. The singing itslef is just flat.

You do not PLAY a pedal, have you ever played guitar? You USE a pedal while PLAYING an instrument. You do not PLAY a vocoder, you USE the vocoder while adding vocals or vocal INSTRUMENTATION.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
MORE proof you're wrong!

It's not, is it? Once again it's you not having a clue what you're on about.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And in the case of How Soon is Now, it's the actual sound of the effect, AS WELL AS the pulsating and the rythm GIVEN to the effect (which is music making)...and we don't know if it's a pedal, a knob, an effects unit...whatever. The way IT'S being used is what's being done musically, creatively and is more the "writing" than the simple guitar chord.

You obviously made the fatal mistake of thinking "Hmm, this sounds like effects, so it MUST be knobs and buttons.". You're wrong. Listen to Rage Against the Machine, there's a disclaimer on all their albums; "All sounds made by guitar, drums, bass and vocals.". No effects from knobs or buttons, it doesn't say "Sounds made by pedals.". Pedals are just used.

The intro to How Soon Is Now? is not a knobs and buttons studio effect, EP.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You're dead dead wrong, and I know why you understand this stuff.

Haha, says the guy who claims to be musically inclined, yet assumed effects were knobs, not a pedal. Guitarists use pedals, you can't assume it's knobs. Listen to Rage.

-AC

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
I agree the effects he used is what made the song that much better. But there are so many elements to any song, that I doubt the uses of a effects pedals is what made the song “good” by itself.

That's the most distictive element of that song...and it wouldn't have been "How Soon is Now" without that elemnent. Kinda like half the Depeche Mode sounds wouldn't be what they are without what's been done with the effects...APART from the song writing. I've been talking about the GUITAR in that song...what makes the GUITAR as amazing as it is...what might be the "icing on the cake" involving the GUITAR (which is what it appeared you meant by saying effects are just the "icing", since you were the one who said I can't compare pedal pushing or knob turning on a GUITAR with Segovia). Well, if it's done in a creative and innovative enough way, the skill, talent and work it takes to use effects is comparable to playing and transposing Bach.

And something ELSE that's playing with effects and button pushing and knob turning is basically techno. That's what it is. And if you take a song like "Rez" by Underworld, you see how much talent, hard wore, and skill is needed to do something as incredible as that song.

Did you even listen to it??? (I somehow doubt it...even though it was indicated you should to better get the point).

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
??? I NEVER said it made the "song" good by itself....I said it was in large part the way the effects were used that the song was as iconic as it is.

That's the most distictive element of that song...and it wouldn't have been "How Soon is Now" without that elemnent.

Everything here is true except for the last line. If How Soon Is Now? didn't have the amp effect on the intro, you wouldn't know that it was different. We can all look back and say it wouldn't be the same song if you removed it, but if he didn't include it in the first place, we wouldn't have known.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It's not actually a pedal effect.

Just to interrupt.

Baaahahahaha.

I like How Soon Is Now by the way.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
It's not actually a pedal effect.

Just to interrupt.

It was definately A tremolo effect. Whether it came from a pedal or from knobs on the amp itself (which is in the case of Johnny Mar). It's still a guitar effect.

It wasn't studio knobs and buttons, which is what EP is insinuating.

-AC