Effects...just "icing" on the cake? (or) not comparable to playing Bach?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You obviously made the fatal mistake of thinking "Hmm, this sounds like effects, so it MUST be knobs and buttons.". You're wrong. Listen to Rage Against the Machine, there's a disclaimer on all their albums; "All sounds made by guitar, drums, bass and vocals.". No effects from knobs or buttons, it doesn't say "Sounds made by pedals.". Pedals are just used.

The intro to How Soon Is Now? is not a knobs and buttons studio effect, EP.

Painful.

And why does what one band say apply to other bands. ARE YOU SERIOUS?

And how do you KNOW the guitars in How Soon is Now ISN'T for sure a studio effect? (which again, I'm not saying is or isn't ...doesn't matter). What a RIDICULOUS thing to say.

And as for your "these are just tools" thing. You're wrong...they CAN be just tools, but as I said earlier, IF they are used creatively and innovatively enough, they essentially become instruments and can be a driving force in what's actually being written.

In the case of the guitar effects, once the guitar chord has been played or recorded (which can often just be a simple power chord), then the effects are what COULD becoem the instrument and used in a creative and musical way. Or in the case of the vovoder, once a voice has been spoken, sang or recorded (which again, can just be a simple flat delivery...which is usually the case when using vocoders), then the vocoder COULD become the instrument, used in a creative an musical way.

A simple DISTORTION effect, can usually JUST be an effect...and not like an instrument. It's tied RIGHT INTO the guitar, and that's pretty much it. But when you get into more complex effects, even a multi-delay, then you can play with THAT DELAY to be creative, be musical, and be innovative, ALL WITH A SIMPLE GUITAR CHORD. The effect is the driving creative force a this point, not the simple, single strum of the guitar.

Again...I'm sure you don't comprehend because song writing doesn't seem to be your bag.

AND you don't always write music FOR instruments as your sayingAC, you write music WITH instruments, and ANYTHING that makes a sound CAN be an instrument.

Sorry dude...you're all over the place. And that junk you were saying about what Rage does applying to others and how you seem to KNOW how "How Soon is Now" was recorded really makes me question how much sense you actually have.

Ridiculous arguing. I think I'm done with you...no point. Really.

PS. Maybe you should think about not going into EVERY SINGLE thread and think you know what you're talking about in EVERY SINGLE argument...because AC, you're clearly out of your league on certain topics...sorry.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
MAN are you confused. I didn't say it MUST be knobs and buttons anywhere...(and again, like usual, you imagine things and pick things out of the air). I DON'T CARE what it is...to me they're the same anyway, aren't they. Do you have a point here?...are you even following the argument? OBVIOUSLY, CLEALY not. If MAYBE you have followed the argument and have unerstood that I don't even make a difference as to whether it's a knob or a pedal, are you using any reasoning in you comments? No.

Oh, not another "You're not following." bs. Spare everybody on this forum another one of those, please.

I'm following it fine. The PROBLEM is that you aren't making a distinction between a pedal and knobs and buttons on a deck or comp that actually make music.

If I gave you a pedal and said "Go write a song.", JUST the pedal, you couldn't. You can't write with a pedal. If I gave you a laptop, a synth or some decks, you could.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And why does what one band say apply to other bands. ARE YOU SERIOUS?

What are you on about? I didn't apply anything to all bands. I said you can't write with a pedal.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And how do you KNOW the guitars in How Soon is Now ISN'T for sure a studio effect? (which again, I'm not saying is or isn't ...doesn't matter). What a RIDICULOUS thing to say.

Because apparantly it's an amp effect, a volume effect that comes with the actual guitar, according to The Smiths fan sites, transcriptions and their Wiki page. So it wasn't anything to do with the studio effects, hence why he does it live/can do it live.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And as for your "these are just tools" thing. You're wrong...they CAN be just tools, but as I said earlier, IF they are used creatively and innovatively enough, they essentially become instruments and can be a driving force in what's actually being written.

Name me a song that was written WITH a vocoder or a pedal.

Not a song that was written with those in mind, a song that was actually written with a pedal or a vocoder.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
In the case of the guitar effects, once the guitar chord has been played or recorded (which can often just be a simple power chord), then the effects are what COULD becoem the instrument and used in a creative and musical way. Or in the case of the vovoder, once a voice has been spoken, sang or recorded (which again, can just be a simple flat delivery...which is usually the case when using vocoders), then the vocoder COULD become the instrument, used in a creative an musical way.

It's not, it's an addition. The writing is done, then the pedals are added, or the other tools are used. They're not written in.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
A simple DISTORTION effect, can usually JUST be an effect...and not like an instrument. It's tied RIGHT INTO the guitar, and that's pretty much it. But when you get into more complex effects, even a multi-delay, then you can play with THAT DELAY to be creative, be musical, and be innovative, ALL WITH A SIMPLE GUITAR CHORD. The effect is the driving creative force a this point, not the simple, single strum of the guitar.

But that's all guitar, the PEDAL is not making that music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Again...I'm sure you don't comprehend because song writing doesn't seem to be your bag.

You can make assumptions about me all you want, you can ruin ANOTHER thread with "You don't get it.", but do this ONE THING for me:

Post something you've created, just so we can see if it's your bag.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
AND you don't always write music FOR instruments as your sayingAC, you write music WITH instruments, and ANYTHING that makes a sound CAN be an instrument.

Pedals and vocoders do not make sounds.

Microphones are not musical instruments. Have you ever heard someone say "I play the mic."? No.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Sorry dude...you're all over the place.

Let's hear your music.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And that junk you were saying about what Rage does applying to others and how you seem to KNOW how "How Soon is Now" was recorded really makes me question how much sense you actually have.

Quote where I said it applies to anyone.

I said it proves that the tools do not make the music.

-AC

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES

And how do you KNOW the guitars in How Soon is Now ISN'T for sure a studio effect? (which again, I'm not saying is or isn't ...doesn't matter). What a RIDICULOUS thing to say.

[/B]

To put this to rest here is a credible source an interview with Marr HIMSELF:

Johnny Marr (from the Guardian newspaper, February 24 2006): "As a kid I was fascinated by Hamilton Bohannon's 'Disco Stomp' and 'New York Groove' by Hello, and I wanted to make something with that stomp. The first decent amp I got was the Fender Twin because the Patti Smith Group used it, and it had this amazing tremolo. Later when we'd had a few hits, a review of What Difference Does It Make said I'd written a riff that was instantly recognizable, which fascinated me. One night I was playing for my own pleasure and I suddenly got the riff. It all came together - the tremolo and the stomping groove - for what became How Soon Is Now, although my demo was titled Swamp. Because it was a groove track it originally appeared as an extra track on a 12-inch, but popular clamor forced its single release. I remember when Morrissey first sang: 'I am the son and the heir...' [Producer] John Porter went, 'Ah great, the elements!' Morrissey continued, '...of a shyness that is criminally vulgar.' I knew he'd hit the bullseye there and then."

Hopfully, AT LEAST, that won't be argued about again.

Whether it's "icing" or not is all in the attitude of the writer. For everyone else whatever is released on the album is part of the song.

I'll quote this again for 2D regarding Depeche Mode...in case he didn't read it

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
BTW. I though you were a Depeche Mode fan. You think DM is what it is because of Martin Gore? You don't think Alan Wilder has anything to do with their genius? Take the song "Clean" off Violator and strip it down to it's bare music...it's nothing. But with Wilder, it becomes beatiful. The bass line ALONE (which is most likely all electronic) is just gigantic. It's simple musically, but when treated with effects and such, becomes something incredible.

Sometimes they have both, and you get "Enjoy the Silence."

Please don't turn this into another "I'll paste cos you didn't read it." argument, EP.

For the sake of this forum.

-AC

Someone think of the forum.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I'll quote this again for 2D...in case he didn't read it (which...it sounds like he often doesn't do) ...and it's because how the effects are USED. That's why Depeche Mode is Depeche Mode...cause sometimes they have great music and the effects are secondary, but sometimes they have simple music, and the effects are primary and are what make the song what it is.

Sometimes they have both, and you get "Enjoy the Silence."

AGAIN YOU ARE BEING FRANTIC. I told you I'd go ONE argument at a time. You're still arguing about the first, I thought it was dead. Just beacuase you argue without any kind of structure does'nt mean I have to. Back to the Icing "argument". Which I don't understand why were are arguing, we both agree that sometimes the effect can be considered 'Icing' some times not, yes?

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
To put this to rest here is a credible source an interview with Marr HIMSELF:

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
I told you I'd go ONE argument at a time.

Yeah, who needs a Guitar? !

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Great...again, to me it doesn't matter WHAT is making the effect...it's just that it's not the GUITAR playing that's makine the GUITAR PART as great as it is....it's what's being used.

I already agreeded with that, sorry i did'nt use the same exact words you did. Did'nt you read MY FIRST POST?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well it seemed you had disapeared after I replied to your post here. I thought you were done wth that part.

Sorry man I have a life to live, I can't be on here 24/7.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Great...again, to me it doesn't matter WHAT is making the effect...it's just that it's not the GUITAR PLAYING that's making the GUITAR PART as great as it is....it's what's being USED, and HOW it's being used.

Do you never, ever consider that YOU are ever looking at something from a perspective that doesn't actually make sense?

You enter debates with this "I see things this way, prove me wrong." attitude. No, prove yourself right. So far, in general, you haven't been able to, so I'll repeat what Backfire said:

"Someone think of the forum.".

-AC

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
It was definately A tremolo effect. Whether it came from a pedal or from knobs on the amp itself (which is in the case of Johnny Mar). It's still a guitar effect.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Do you never, ever consider that YOU are ever looking at something from a perspective that doesn't actually make sense?

You enter debates with this "I see things this way, prove me wrong." attitude. No, prove yourself right. So far, in general, you haven't been able to, so I'll repeat what Backfire said:

"Someone think of the forum.".

-AC

I didn't say you could quote me.

Thief.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Right...which, IF used creatively enough, is what becomes MORE the music making than a simple strummed chord.

No, it becomes additional to the strummed chord. The tremelo arm isn't making the music, it's altering it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it becomes additional to the strummed chord. The tremelo arm isn't making the music, it's altering it.

-AC

If EPIIIBITES had any sense this would end the argument. Maybe he just likes to argue regardless of being right or wrong.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If I gave you a pedal and said "Go write a song.", JUST the pedal, you couldn't. You can't write with a pedal. If I gave you a laptop, a synth or some decks, you could.

We're talking about the PART...the guitar PART. And we're talking about writing PARTS for songs, and if those PARTS are what they are because of the playing of the instrument or because of the effects. And I said if you use an effect like multi-delay creatively enough, you can write the PART you want with it, and be musical with it, and be creative with it, and ESSENTIALLY be using it like an instrument (more so than the simple strummed chord you played on the guitar). I'm not saying you'd make the whole song!! Where does your reasoning come from? Seriously!

And I admitted, in MOST cases, effects are just used SIMPLY as tools to add "icing" so to speak, and people often use them to make themselves sound better than they are. But if you use something like multi-delay and start going crazy with it, it becomes an instrument...heck...it can even sound like techno...and you can sit there playing it and manioulating it for minutes if you want.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Unbelievable this guy.

We're talking about the PART...the guitar PART. And we're talking about writing PARTS for songs, and if those PARTS are what they are because of the playing of the instrument or because of the effects. And I said if you use an effect like multi-delay creatively enough, you can write the PART you want with it, and be musical with it, and be creative with it, and ESSENTIALLY be using it like an instrument (more so than the simple strummed chord you played on the guitar). I'm not saying you'd make the whole song!! Where does your reasoning come from? Seriously!

And I admitted, in MOST cases, effects are just used SIMPLY as tools to add "icing" so to speak, and people often use them to make themselves sound better than they are. But if you use something like multi-delay and start going crazy with it, it becomes an instrument...heck...it can even sound like techno...and you can sit there playing it and manioulating it for minutes if you want.

If they are as good as they are because of an effect, then all the effect did was enhance already existing music. It didn't create any music, it altered it. It cannot create music.

Techno knobs and buttons MAKE music, a pedal does not. YOU simply deciding to say there's no difference is where the problem lies, because again you fail to see anything other than "I believe this, this is what I believe and that's all that matters to me.". If that's how you live, great, but you can't bring that to a messageboard, it doesn't work. It "mattering" to you does not make it true, you cannot just decide there's no difference because you don't see it.

You avoided my question like the black plague; You love to run down everyone else, say we're not musically inclined.

Post something you've written and created. Post some of your own music, let's see how inclined you are.

-AC

Originally posted by Pezmerga
If EPIIIBITES had any sense this would end the argument. Maybe he just likes to argue regardless of being right or wrong.

It's ALTERING what's been played...OBVIOUSLY...but what you do with how you alter it CAN (not always...but if done creatively and innovatively) create a rythm, a mood, or even a sort of MELODY with certain effects, that ISN'T there with playing a strum...and the EFFECT can essentialy become what's doing the music making...what's being done creatively in the music making process...what's giving the personality and meaning to the music.