Why No Love for Liz & Jack? *spoilers*

Hey guys!

No one commented on my post! I thought maybe because I titled it wrong, so I am going to repost it with a different title. If it needs to be deleted, that's fine. Just a couple responses would be nice!

As I sit here attempting to rationalize exactly why there was absolutely no relationship building between Jack and Elizabeth in this third movie, I am looking back on the end of Dead Man's Chest. If we think of these last two movies and one long film, then maybe we have to look closely at the choice Elizabeth made in leaving Jack Sparrow for dead on the Black Pearl, no TRAPPING him for death, when the Kracken was coming for them. All through DMC there is tension and banter between Jack and Liz, yes, and that darn compass- the compass keeps pointing Jack to Liz and Liz to Jack. But has anyone thought that the end of DMC signified the end of Jack and Liz?

I am beginning to wonder if maybe that was the point where Liz made her choice. She had feelings for both men, albeit different feelings. For Will she feels romantic love- "I want to marry you and be the mother of your children" love, and for Jack she feels... longing, lust even? Jack epitomizes her darkest desires. I think she cares for Jack, but not in the warm loving manner she does for Will. When she chooses to sacrifice Jack at the end of DMC- she does so not only to save herself, but also Will. She also chose to sacrifice any feelings she had for Jack, and we can all agree she did it in a ruthless, heartless manner. She basically seduces him to death. How can we expect Jack to end up in Davy Jones' Locker, dead- for an eternity mind you- and then to simply forgive her and continue to love her like he did before?

The more I think about it- the more I feel that when Liz made the choice to shackle Jack to the ship, leaving him to the Kracken, she made the choice to sever that "relationship." Maybe that was the death of Liz and Jack (my heart will break even harder the next time I watch DMC now.) Liz had NO idea there would be a chance to save Jack. She left him for dead! I do feel she regretted her decision after she made it, but she DID choose Will over Jack- she chose to help save Will's life (as well as the others, I know) by luring the Kracken away towards Jack.

Does this make sense to any of you?

If you really think about it- Liz is lucky Jack forgave her like he did. He even scooped her up and swept her away after to safety at the end of AWE. What a guy, continuing to look out for her no matter what. Yes, I know it is obvious they have lingering feelings for each other just by the tiny little snippets- the little scrappy bones they threw our way in this last film, but overall- I think the possibility of a love relationship died when she killed him. And she did- he even said, "Four of you tried to kill me. One of you succeeded."

Hmph~ and really- in the end she does kind of get her payback. I'm such an emotional sucker... but her father dies. The first man to love her dies, and her husband is taken from her- only to be with her for one day and then gone for ten years. *sigh* I don't know about the rest of you- but these movies are *supposed* to be "fun" and this one has, for now, made me kinda sad.

I'd love to know what you think. I've posted already that while I absolutely LOVED this last movie, my heart is broken and I am trying to put it back together again! I have to make some sense of it all or else I'm going to go batty- Savvy?

i agree...The reason I enjoyed COTBP is because it was fun and even though i've never been a fan of Will and Liz as a couple, I thought the end of COTBP at least left me with a happy feeling....

YOu knew Liz and Will would be married
YOu knew Jack was happy, he was once again Captain of the Black Pearl and was surrounded by his friends....

then along comes DMC..and the writers act out my secret fantasy of having Jack and Liz seem like a couple..like they were growing toward each other..."very much alike".....the whole dang blasted Curiosity Conversation....i just don't get it and never will...I know some want to say all those clues actually pointed to Will and lIz...but i just don't know how....it's really bizarre....

So, yes, DMC was darker and stranger...and we left sad because Jack had been tricked by the woman he was coming to love and left for Dead.......we got treated to a hot, sexy kiss of death.....

then along comes AMC...and it ends sort of tragic....Will's heart is cut out by his own father....Jack sails away on a small dingy...his Pearl once again gone and even Mr. Gibbs is left happy - at least he has the strumpets...

Liz is left to raise her son on an island all alone for 10 years...but I guess if you are a w/e couple fan you could say it ended happy because as Will comes back he gets his green flash, the curse is broken and now he, Liz and their son can live happily ever after.....

So, that pretty much brings closure to Will and Liz.....

If there is a POTC it'll probably be based on Jack trying to find the Black Pearl once again and find the Fountain of Youth...maybe they could introduce a new love interest for Jack....as a fan of the hunk..it's just kind of fun to watch him in a romantic situation...but, Johnny doesn't really feel comfortable with that type of role..so I guess all i'll ever get is the kiss at the end of DMC

And sadly, I think you are correct..the kiss of death was the end of Jack and Liz...she chose Will and decided to kill Jack and get rid of the temptation...and once they rescued Jack...he was no longer vexed by her since she had pretty much proven to him that she would do anything to be with Will.....so, my biggest fear all along was realized...Jack Sparrow of all things was a victim of unrequited love......

Liz never cared for jack beyond Lust.....

sorry... didn't read it because it was too long.. 😛 but okay...

I think Liz liked Jack, and she's torn between the two guys. but, her love for Will made it out in the end.

that was why i hated the ending... Will and Elizabeth ended up, no problem with that, but they didn't get to spend the rest of their lives together. once in ten years?....

Jack said that, IMO partly because he was still bummed about those many many Jacks, bummed... no, maybe traumatized... you're hallucinating that there are many of yourself?! like, WTH right? Jack liked Liz too, but he understood that Will and Liz were meant for each other. He wanted Liz.. heck, they wanted each other... but, somehow, sometimes, bad boys(jack) attract good girls(Lizzie.. 😊) right? and it doesn't really work out... besides, Jack is one of those people who cannot be tied down.. Liz, well, she had tasted freedom, and that looked like it was enough for her.... but i know that she would gladly do all of that all over again.

Yes, i think when liz chained Jack down, she was thinking that it would save everyone, including her and will.. she felt kinda guilty there too, when i stared at her face in Tia dalma's shack, she looked guilty.. either that, or it was only keira's face lol...

well.. maybe i've got other things on my mind, but i just can't fish them out now.. these are enough for one post.. 😄

Hmph~ and really- in the end she does kind of get her payback. I'm such an emotional sucker... but her father dies. The first man to love her dies, and her husband is taken from her- only to be with her for one day and then gone for ten years. *sigh* I don't know about the rest of you- but these movies are *supposed* to be "fun" and this one has, for now, made me kinda sad.

Well,,, yes I guess you could say she got her just reward in the end...but she still gets Will and her son......and jack gets nothing...so far....we have to wait another three years or so to find out when POTC 4 comes out..if there will even be any more....

so yes, i'm very disappointed with jack's closure...

well.. what i said was another point of view...

Nitpick with you, lovethemtigers. What makes you say that Liz stayed on an island all alone for ten years?

Does that sound like Lizzie to you? 'Cause it doesn't sound like her to me. Also, I don't doubt that Will and Liz would be working toward seeing each other, bending those rules.

And again, I don't see Jack as being a 'victim' of unrequited love. He was ready to stab the heart and gain immortality. The struggle at the end of the film where Will dies is from Jack trying to choose between what is right, and what he wants for himself. I don't see him being desperately in love with Lizzie. I do see that he and Lizzie share a fondness for each other that is more than friendship but not really romantic either.

I don't think Jack's ending is bad. He seemed quite happy to be on the sea again, searching for his immortality. But more than immortality, I think he was just enjoying his freedom. 😄

about that... where did the compass point before it pointed in the right direction?

What do you mean? Which time are you talking about? 😄

you know.. that time when the compass's arrows spun, then pointed in a direction contrary to the fountain of youth. then, he sniffs.. or drink the rum, then it points in the right direction! what is that about?

Jack wanted rum the most in that one moment, so it pointed to the rum. Then it pointed in the direction of the FoY, or possibly the Pearl. Maybe both. 😄

Good- I'm glad to see some of my own thoughts reflected here so I don't feel so alone 🙂

I did not stay to watch after the credits- I did not know to do so, and my hubby was with me, and he was ready to go! Those seats cramp his 6 1/2 foot frame *lol* So- am I to assume that the rules for Will, one day on shore for every ten years at sea, will eventually be broken, and they will be reuinted like a normal husband and wife? In my head I just don't see her spending her life alone, waiting for the one day... that is just not Elizabeth. I DO see her spending time with Jack, and I don't mean sexually- just as friends. I see her leading an exciting life- after tasting such adventure, a woman like her could never settle for a boring life. It would drive her mad.

I am more upset by the fact that Will was stabbed, had his heart cut out by his father, and sailed away alone. For some reason- if they married them off together, I felt that was a tragic ending. I don't feel bad for Jack at all! He has mentioned a few times his desire to live forever, and now he stole the map to the fountain of youth from Barbossa. Jack can always comandeer his Black Pearl back into his own possession, or he can get a bigger and better ship- but he has the map, and that is what would matter more to him. Jack needs a life of freedom, and he has it. He escaped imprisonment and death as a pirate (as many pirates were being executed at that time.) He helped rescue the sea from Beckett's evil grasp. He helped save Liz. He ended as a hero, just without his ship- but that will always be HIS ship. He was never meant to love... just as Liz was not meant to pine away for decades, neither was Jack meant to be tied down in love. I suppose it ended the only way it could, especially to leave it open for a possible #4. Now he has to go find his ship!

You are correct in assuming that the curse is broken at the end of ten years. There was a line that got cut from the film that explains it exactly, but it is vaguely implied in the Davy Jones/Tia scene (which was fantastic).

I'm glad you liked Jack's ending. I thought it was perfect for him. He gets to be on the sea, he's free, he's got his rum, a spiffy new flag and the map to the fountain of youth.

I didn't even mind the W/E ending that much, because I knew if anyone could make this whole curse thing work, it'd be them. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't think that they'd just sit around waiting for the curse to be over to see each other again.

They may not be able to break the rules, but they'd damn well work at it to go under, over or around the rules to see each other. The whole movie has me so giddy from good feelings that I haven't really stopped smiling since Thursday. 😄

I would have walked away from the movie with a better, happier feeling if I had seen the final scene after the credits, and it I had understood everything. This is why I have to see it again. I mean, to me- Here I fell in love with Will for the first time during this movie, and then he died a tragic death, got his heart cut out by his father, became "immortal," leaving Liz behind- never to see her again for 10 years, then a day together, then 10 years apart, etc. I was disappointed and sad. That sounds so stupid from just a movie, but I HAVE been waiting 10 months to see this ending.

Thank you for explaining it to me. I will have to watch the Davy/Tia scene more closely when I go back tomorrow.

I feel better now. 😛

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
And sadly, I think you are correct..the kiss of death was the end of Jack and Liz...she chose Will and decided to kill Jack and get rid of the temptation...and once they rescued Jack...he was no longer vexed by her since she had pretty much proven to him that she would do anything to be with Will.....so, my biggest fear all along was realized...Jack Sparrow of all things was a victim of unrequited love......

Liz never cared for jack beyond Lust.....

Sigh... *hugs lovethemtigers* we'll get through this together... somehow....

I have to say that I personally don't see where the Jack + 'Liz fansquad originates from. There is no basis or anything for a stable relationship between the two other than the aforementioned lust. It seems to me that Elizabeth essentially had the "I love bad boys" syndrome for a bit. She was fascinated with pirates. Jack was [the] pirate. He's a badass.

However, what she had with Will seemed rather 'real'. There was more than just lust, there was love. A true connection that Jack and Liz simply lacked entirely.

In my opinion there was more relationship building and meaningful conversation between Jack and Elizabeth in the first two movies than there was between Will and Elizabeth. They did a decent job of luring those of us who are fans of Jack/Liz into thinking there could be the possibility of a love triangle~ I'm sure there are others who will agree.

You are right- she is drawn to him because he is a bad boy, but sometimes the bad boys win out in the end.

Oh~ and where the heck is my SIGGY?

Perhaps you refer to the chemistry between Elizabeth and Jack; but the movies made it quite clear that she was willing to go to far greater lengths for Will than she would for Jack, and vice versa. She was simply infatuated with Jack and was likely more traumatized at the fact that she caused his death rather than him being dead itself.

But, what do I know? I haven't seen the movie, yet. I'm still just pissed about Beckett dying. 🙁

Sorry- just testing to see if me siggy shows 😉

I understand your point, but then they should have done a better job creating a chemistry between Liz and Will that was as strong as the chemistry between Liz and Jack. I just felt that the relationship between the two "kids" fell flat while the chemistry between Jack and Liz was strongly evident.

Originally posted by Gideon
I have to say that I personally don't see where the Jack + 'Liz fansquad originates from. There is no basis or anything for a stable relationship between the two other than the aforementioned lust. It seems to me that Elizabeth essentially had the "I love bad boys" syndrome for a bit. She was fascinated with pirates. Jack was [the] pirate. He's a badass.

However, what she had with Will seemed rather 'real'. There was more than just lust, there was love. A true connection that Jack and Liz simply lacked entirely.

See, the problem is, Gideon, you're basing your argument on a system of logic that views romantic love as more important/meaningful that deep friendship and powerful chemistry. That's not canon-- because clearly a lot of the world would throw out so called romantic love for the adventure of a lifetime. things get sticky when you try and use "good" and "bad" logic for this situation.

Jack and Elizabeth's connection was, granted, very different from Will and Liz. Because Will and Liz essentially had puppy love for the first 2 films. Jack and Elizabeth, on the other hand, are very similar. They want similar things out of life, and are willing to go to similar lengths to get it. They understand each other, compete with each other, and clearly really respect each other. do we ever see Will and Elizabeth having the fun, competitive conversations that Jack and Liz have? Not really. It's generally awkward when they talk just the two of them. they never laugh when they are around each other. they hardly ever smile, except when they are awkwardly kissing each other's knees or something. (shudder).

But you can check out the sparrabeth thread for more where that came from. i am not inherently against W/L, as I've often stated. I was determined to like the movie, even knowing they ended up together. But that hinged on the writers bringing their relationship full circle with appropriate resolution, which we didn't get.