Why No Love for Liz & Jack? *spoilers*

Started by Surreal_444 pages

I disagree. Jack and Liz were entertaining to watch, but Liz and Will had a connection that barely needed words. They don't NEED to have deep meaningful conversations, because once they figure out how the other one is feeling, they're on exactly the same page.

Will is extraordinarily accepting of Elizabeth and her nature, but with Jack he must always try to get a rise out of her, must always try to out-do her, or must try to convince her to be more like him.

It really just depends on what your taste is in relationships, because I see the development of Will and Elizabeth just fine. They had a misunderstanding, then they argue, and then when they're apart from each other for the first time by actual choice, they begin to put the pieces together and discover that what they have with each other is what they want.

That's why they are fine on the sandbar with each other; they understand each other, and they want the other. Not to mention Will is proud of Elizabeth, and he backs her up when she tells him that Jack helped to make her King. "Well maybe he really does know what he's doing," is a statement of his belief that Elizabeth is quite capable to handle situations.

Then when they get back to the Pearl he helps Liz up, and it's obvious they've been talking because she's still talking to Will when Barbossa interrupts her.

When they are fighting, it's time to put everything out in the open. A lot of that scene was cut, but they did talk. In the film it still works fine, because they put each other before anything else in the world.

That is true chemistry. With Jack and Liz it is always seflish, rarely ever moving above their own personal agenda. That isn't healthy, it isn't really much fun for me to watch, and I didn't find the intensity, emotion, caring and chemistry in Jack and Elizabeth that I did find in Will and Elizabeth.

It's all a matter of opinion of course, but if you really look at these films without trying to make it fanficcy (who wants long conversations between characters during an action film?), you'd see all that wonderful subtext that clarifies how they think and feel about each other.

One other point, Will and Liz haven't been given much opportunity to laugh around each other (on screen), since stuff is usually going down all around them, but Elizabeth certainly looks happy almost every time she's around Will, and Will is always happy to be around Elizabeth.

And um, no, the knee-nuzzling was not awkward. I think that's just jealous J/E shippiness talking, because of the many people I've spoken with, it's agreed it's one of the hottest moments in the film. It's tender and bittersweet and filled with love and sexiness...yeah.

Again, it's opinion, but I don't think you're being fair. I think you're angry Sparrabeth didn't happen and I get the impression it wouldn't really matter how much Liz and Will laugh, smile, talk, snuggle, snog or have sex, you'd still hate it because it is simply not J/E. 😛

I don't want to be mean, but that is the impression you are sending out.

I don't think that last post was meant for me 🙂 By the end of the third movie, I am content with the fact that Will and Liz are meant to be together. I mean, my rational mind knew they would be together- just that little glimmer of, "Don't we always fantasize about the bad boy?" was in my heart for Liz and Jack, but I knew they would not be together. It would make no sense in the end.

There were two things I had a hard time with at first. #1, for us Jack/Liz fans, I wish there had been just a small scene for closure. More than the keep trying to convince yourself darling scene. Secondly, since I am such a softie, and I get wayyy too involved in my fiction, I was happy that Liz and Will married. I was on the edge of my seat for the battle scene, tha "Marry me," scene. It was an amazing scene. So to then kill Will- I think that is what bothered me most. That broke my heart entirely more than the lack of Jack/Liz. I think I do undersand that the Liz/Jack theme died when Liz "killed" Jack at the end of DMC.

I thought the beach scene was very sexy! I think their chemistry was great then. Will has loved Liz since her father pulled him aboard his ship as a young boy. You know he was satisfied with himself and her by the point of the knee nuzzling *lol*

Maybe I'm just vain, but during the knee thing, I wasn't turned on. I thought it was hot, yes, but all I was thinking was, "Man, I wish my legs were as toned and tan as hers." Sigh.....

I kind of feel the same way starfish does. I'll probably always prefer sparrabeth, but I am 100% fine with having a Will/Liz ending. I didn't like that things in DMC were just discarded, but I said all along that as long as Jack was over her, things would be all good. Well, I think he got over any romantic feelings he had for her. T&T pulled an original concept too underused in movies- that a man and a woman can love each other without being in love. They somewhat explored the possibility of being a couple and figured it wouldn't work, and their relationship turned into an almost brother/sister comaraderie. There is love there, of course, but it isn't the kind of love spouses would have for one another. Would they fall in love if given time and opportunity? I say yes. But I like that after all they'd been through, they came away with as strong a friendship as they did.

Aw, how sweet. I like the sound of that. hehe 😍

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Sigh... *hugs lovethemtigers* we'll get through this together... somehow....

* hugs katelovespirates* i knew you would understand, my dear.

I just thought the story of jack and liz was a whole lot more interesting....i can't help it...i just thought liz and will were boring and she just seemed like she needed more out of life and a relationship..and i don't like that jack ends up right back where he started in POTC 1 - unless there is most definetly a fourth...where he gets his Pearl back....

and who says that finding love takes away ones freedom......sometimes finding real love can set you free...

but all of this is pointless really..... 🙁

Originally posted by katelovespirate
See, the problem is, Gideon, you're basing your argument on a system of logic that views romantic love as more important/meaningful that deep friendship and powerful chemistry. That's not canon-- because clearly a lot of the world would throw out so called romantic love for the adventure of a lifetime. things get sticky when you try and use "good" and "bad" logic for this situation.

Jack and Elizabeth's connection was, granted, very different from Will and Liz. Because Will and Liz essentially had puppy love for the first 2 films. Jack and Elizabeth, on the other hand, are very similar. They want similar things out of life, and are willing to go to similar lengths to get it. They understand each other, compete with each other, and clearly really respect each other. do we ever see Will and Elizabeth having the fun, competitive conversations that Jack and Liz have? Not really. It's generally awkward when they talk just the two of them. they never laugh when they are around each other. they hardly ever smile, except when they are awkwardly kissing each other's knees or something. (shudder).

But you can check out the sparrabeth thread for more where that came from. i am not inherently against W/L, as I've often stated. I was determined to like the movie, even knowing they ended up together. But that hinged on the writers bringing their relationship full circle with appropriate resolution, which we didn't get.

Standing Ovation...**applauds Katelovespirate**

Well said, my dear.

This is what I am always trying to say. We see the Liz and Jack relationship build and develop. Take the island scene...Jack shares with Elizabeth how he feels about the Pearl - i find that a very intimate moment....and the deleted Peas in a Pod scene, an excellent testimony to the connection between liz and jack..and the deleted island scenes, where he shows her his scars.....and then, of course, all the oozing chemistry that comes through every scene they are ever in together....i felt a real connection between jack and liz....they think alike, they act alike, they laughed with each other, they shared secrets with each other, she believed in jack, etc.....i didn't get that with liz and will...i just never felt, saw or heard any kind of connection except for that small scene on the interceptor when he sees the medallion....

and besides the shipping stuff...what about the beckett story...what mark did jack leave on beckett....

and what did they do to norrington...i soo enjoyed him in DMC...i was so hoping that in DMC he would throw his wig into the ocean and join jack's crew once again....and become a rum-soaked deck hand again.

OK, here goes my two pence. IMHO Lizzy was always infatuated with Pirates from the time she first started reading about them. She told Jack all about his exploints she had read about in the island scene of COTBP. Jack recognized her for a stong woman and the fact that she had piratey ways. 1) she stole the medallion from Will,
2) she lied to the authorities about Will in fear of him being branded a pirate,
3) she figured out a way to get them off the island with no regard for Jack and what would happen to him,
4) she lied to Norrington to get him to go after Will and admitted to Jack that that was the only way for them to save Will, with no regard for the lives that would be lost,
5) she realized that Jack was attracted to her at the end of COTBP so when she meets up with him again in DMC she studies Jack and his response to her in the Curiosity scene, and
6) she used Jack's base instincts as a man against him to save herself, Will and the crew.

Jack always admired her for her cunning and ability to be trecherous
when the chips were down, thus "Pirate" uttered at the end of DMC. If he came close to loving her, it was at that moment, otherwise I think he found a mirror image of himself in her and was egotistical enough to play with her in the Curiosity scene.

TnT stated there was no triangle and now I believe them. DMC was stopped mid-scene and continued in AWE. Lizzy was scared about what she had turned into and was ashamed to even admit it to Will. She was turning into a pirate and even though she wanted to be a pirate she really did not want to be a pirate. "It was not yours to bare," is what she told Will in AWE when he confronted her about it. In Lizzy's mind she used Jack as a mentor of sorts to learn how to be a pirate and she did learn that he did have a method to his "madness", as we saw in the beach scene of AWE. Will finally woke up to the fact then too.

Norri questioned her about her smile for Jack when the compass was suppose to point to Jack on the ship in DMC. I now believe the compass was always pointing to the chest and Jack was in the way. She smiled because on one level as a woman she had a big, bad, salty pirate playing with her and on another level, she finally had hooked his basic instinct as a man.

All and all, on the beach scene with Jack when she put her head on his shoulder, she did it as a friendly jester, not knowing it would arouse anything from Jack. She was too inexperienced with men to know what would happen, although to me she acted like a tease.

When I look at DMC and AWE I see Lizzy flirting with Jack to find his breaking point and what it would take to do that. One of the writers even said she never would have let Jack kiss her in the Curiosity scene and if there was a kiss it would be at the cost of Jack's life. It was the way they always planned it to happen.

She already had her mind made up during DMC about Will. "I am so ready to be married." Jack took that as an invitation when it was only an immature woman speaking of sex and marriage to Will.

Jack was always a good man; he didn't want to be, but he was. Jack is the one who made all the sacrifices throughout all three movies and I really did not like the way they left him hanging in the end. He went full circle. Coming into Port Royal on a dingy and sailing away in a dingy still looking for his boat er, ship.

But, after they all arrived in purgatory and Jack whipped out his compass, did anyone notice that it spun out of control again. Jack put his head back a little and just shook his head. Did he still not know what he wanted or was Lizzy still vexing him?

And, what of Tia Dalma's question "...he knows what he wants, but is loath to claim it?" Why in AWE was she not pushing Jack to claim Lizzy when she was whispering "A touch of destiny" in Will's ear when Gov Swann was in the sea of dead. She also told Will that the destiny had a great price in the end. So, if she knew about the destiny of Will, why was she not saying something to Lizzy to push her to Jack?

Bottom line, there never was an ending with Lizzy and Jack. It is just a pirate movie and we were all pirated. hahaha

Bloody pirates!

Originally posted by calypso
Bottom line, there never was an ending with Lizzy and Jack. It is just a pirate movie and we were all pirated. hahaha

I loved your post!

They pirated my heart away!

it all makes since. it all makes since.

Oh Man.....I seriously Gave My Heart away to Jack and Elizabeth....i dont know if i'll ever get it Back....lol...not sure if i want it back because to Me Jack and Lizzie Belong together!! My heart seriously Broke into a Million pieces when i saw the ending of AWE and it stopped me from completely loving it right away but the ending grew on me and I already loved the rest of it so now I Love it!!! 🙂

yes, my heart was definetly pirated.....i fell in love with jack and lizzy...i use to fantazise about them being a couple during, after POTC 1....and then when they kind of acted on it in DMC i went overboard and don't think i can ever be saved......

I know what u mean Love.....I crossed over to the point of no return! Jack and Lizzie have seriously become a part of me, a part of my heart!! It wasnt Just about attraction to them as a Hot Couple, but about a deeper connection between them that we were able to see develope on screen between the 1st 2 Pirate Movies!! A Developement we never saw between Will and Liz because...well they hardly ever were together!! They had barely any scenes together!

Jack and Lizzie were ripped away from us. They made them disappear as if their chemistry, their very obvious feelings were nothing but a ghost!! As I watched AWE i remembered all these Wonderful Moments between Jack and Liz and had great memories, but there was hardly any trace of it in AWE that i caught myself thinking "Did i dream up this past year? Did i dream up DMC? Did i dream up all these theories and facts that all pointed to Jack and Liz?"

I dont know what happened but watching the movie that night, I felt as though i was breaking up with my Boyfriend! My heart just kept breaking apart everytime Will and Liz's lips met! Then i felt the pain of a sword being pierced through my heart when i saw them on the Beach....and if i thought things couldnt get any worse i saw the Tag at the end of the credits and well that was the Twist of the sword that did it for me!

Im SPARRABETH TiL I DIE!!! SO TnT U BeTTeR Do Something to Make us Sparrabethers happy cause that thing Ya'LL said about "If you do the Movie correctly then half the audience would change to the side with man of the better choice" aint working for me (i'm dealing with it) But i sure as Heck aint Happy with it and its Killing me!! Will was Not the better choice JACK IS!!!!! The movie was done incorrectly fellas so step to!!!

point of no return love? i don't think so... even Jack had his chance to get back from the point of no return(a.k.a davey jones locker) 😉

ahh.. sparrabethers anonymous lol?

i know.. it's not true, but you could just imagine that liz married will out of pity though he loved jack.. 😉

i'm still happy whatever happened.. but still.. i would never stop wondering what would've been if it ended sparrabeth.. or norribeth....

🙂

Originally posted by PirateDiva
I know what u mean Love.....I crossed over to the point of no return! Jack and Lizzie have seriously become a part of me, a part of my heart!! It wasnt Just about attraction to them as a Hot Couple, but about a deeper connection between them that we were able to see develope on screen between the 1st 2 Pirate Movies!! A Developement we never saw between Will and Liz because...well they hardly ever were together!! They had barely any scenes together!

Jack and Lizzie were ripped away from us. They made them disappear as if their chemistry, their very obvious feelings were nothing but a ghost!! As I watched AWE i remembered all these Wonderful Moments between Jack and Liz and had great memories, but there was hardly any trace of it in AWE that i caught myself thinking "Did i dream up this past year? Did i dream up DMC? Did i dream up all these theories and facts that all pointed to Jack and Liz?"

I dont know what happened but watching the movie that night, I felt as though i was breaking up with my Boyfriend! My heart just kept breaking apart everytime Will and Liz's lips met! Then i felt the pain of a sword being pierced through my heart when i saw them on the Beach....and if i thought things couldnt get any worse i saw the Tag at the end of the credits and well that was the Twist of the sword that did it for me!

Im SPARRABETH TiL I DIE!!! SO TnT U BeTTeR Do Something to Make us Sparrabethers happy cause that thing Ya'LL said about "If you do the Movie correctly then half the audience would change to the side with man of the better choice" aint working for me (i'm dealing with it) But i sure as Heck aint Happy with it and its Killing me!! Will was Not the better choice JACK IS!!!!! The movie was done incorrectly fellas so step to!!!

Diva I haven't seen it yet, but your discription describes how i felt when i started seeing all the spoilers and reviews come in over at KTTC after the premiere night at Disneyland....my heart is broken.....i don't want to see liz and will kiss cuz for me it's forced chemistry..but i will go see Jack/Johnny.....

I remember all those mysterious comments from T and T...that by the end of the movie half of the audience would change sides and join forces with the other side because Elizabeth will make the most correct choice and how the entire audience will be cheering and leave with a good feeling...

Well that sounds like a load of BS....if it were done correctly as Katelovespirates always has said..then maybe it could be accepted...but this sounds unacceptable..i can't wait to see it so i can give my first hand account and comment on my gut feelings about the entire movie....but so far my trusted friends that i have chatted with over this past year...such as Diva, TMaria, Mina, Katelovespirates, etc....none of you guys sound very happy about the Sparrabeth aspect of AWE...which sounds like it is non-existant....

Everyone kept saying they could accept W/E if it were done in good taste, blah, blah, blah...but i kept saying...cuz i know in my heart...that i could never accept W/E cuz i just don't feel their connection...and based on the first two movies....i still think everything was about JAck and liz and how they were meant to be together.....

i am just rambling....i wont' be able to see AWE for at least another week...... 🙁 - i guess i better bring my box of tissues and don't wear any make-up...my little boy is going home with my parents for the summer...so if my husband doesn't go with me..i may call a friend...if not i will go watch it alone and wallow in my grief and my tissues 🙁

and here my friends is a perfect and very prophetic video that TMaria and I teamed up on...our very first one...because i had a gut feeling, even though i tried to keep postive, that things were not going to go our way in AWE....and its the song by Faith Hill and Tim McGraw..the song i least wanted to remind me of Sparrabeth..and now its almost the only song that really fits.....

"Like We Never Loved At All"

You never looked so good
as you did last night,
underneath the city lights,
there walking with your friend,
laughing at the moon.
I swear you looked right through me.
But I’m still living with your goodbye,
and you’re just going on with your life.

How can you just walk on by
without one tear in your eye?
Don’t you have the slightest feelings left for me?
Maybe that’s just your way
of dealing with the pain,
forgetting everything
between our rise and fall
like we never loved at all.

You, I hear you’re doing fine.
Seems like you’re doing well
as far as I can tell.
Time is leaving us behind,
(time – leaving us behind)
another week has passed
and still I haven’t laughed yet.
So tell me, what your secret is
(I wanna know, I wanna know, I wanna know)
to letting go, letting go like you did,
like you did.

How can you just walk on by
without one tear in your eye?
Don’t you have the slightest feelings left for me?
Maybe that’s just your way
of dealing with the pain,
forgetting everything
between our rise and fall
like we never loved at all.

Did you forget the magic?
Did you forget the passion?
Oh, and did you ever miss me,
and long to kiss me?
Oh baby, baby.

Maybe that’s just your way
of dealing with the pain,
forgetting everything
between our rise and fall
like we never loved at all

this is what we should sing to TnT about what they did to us with Jack and Liz...LOL....

here's the vid...once we get AWE clips we will have to update it....well, for some reason it won't play..it just keeps saying Loading...
but in case it starts working....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOVR4yJpuZs

AND...of course..this is Sparrabeth to a T now...it appears that Liz succeeded is "Rinse"ing Jack from her heart/ emotions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN4kPNzBfS4

Tigers my heart is broken also. All my friends were trying to cheer me up as we left the theatre and even later over dinner. I wanted Jack/Lizzy so bad that on the red carpet I was a little ticked off that Keira did not show up and walk with Johnny. Boy is that irrational.

I totally understand your feelings Diva and I am right there with you. I even cried myself to sleep after I saw it the first time. But after seeing it a few more times now (5) and going back and watching DMC to see the progression as DMC & AWE as basicly one movie then it was easier for me to accept the ending and Lizzy's actions in DMC. And are her actions so different than they were on the island in COTBP when she burned everything in sight with the rum in order to save herself and find help for Will? I think not, and she stayed true to Will til the end.

I must admit that even if we knew Will was going to die, it was still a shock to me and everyone in the theatre gasped out loud. Just the cruelty of what DJ did because he had not realized his love was just too much for me. I thought this is a Disney movie?

Jack's theme throughout the trilogy is freedom and I guess that was the dominant force behind keeping Jack free at the end. If they had ended it with Jack/Lizzy then they would have had a hard time doing any more sequels because they would have had to include Lizzy or kill her off in the next one, otherwise you wind up with a weekly sitcom, and POTC is definately not that.

I said "I won't like it, won't like it, won't like it and won't like it again,", and I feel I short-changed myself, because it is just a phenomenal movie
with great sets, music, actors, and with Johnny Depp. Fandom of this movie may have been pirated to buy into AWE after the ending of DMC, but I think the lines uttered by Beckett were intended for us Sparrabethers, "It's just good business".

When i watched AWE i was bummed by the ending. i was like 'that was the saddest ending i've ever watched next to walk to remember. and what? no hint of Sparrabeth?" i was soo bummed! but then.. i didn't get to see what happened after the credits......

yeah.. it probably is (to calypso). still a bummer though...

It is helpful to read all of your comments! I must say that while I am in love with the whole Jack/Liz idea, I am not so to a point where I can let this last movie ruin my enjoyment of Pirates of the Caribbean. I love the whole scope of the saga to a point where my brain will eventually bend to allow me to accept the ending. I KNOW that Liz and Jack were not meant to be. I think I was VERY upset that they did not have any closure to the J/L relationship, but then when I went back and looked at DMC as being the first half of a movie, and ATE the second half- Liz made her choice when she shackled Jack to The Black Pearl. I think that was the closure right there. They DID offer us a tiny glimpse into Jack's mind, and his feelings for Liz with his last two comments to her- the final non-kiss from Liz when he put up his hand to block her, and then the "convincing yourself" comment. Yeah, he cared for her in his own way- it was a glimpse into a different facet of Jack's personality.

I really can't wait to go see it again. Now that I have come to terms with the ending, it will be better for me.

I do have to say- I was absolutely in shock when Will was stabbed. I could not believe it. I did not read much before the movie because I did not want to ruin anything or take away any surprises, so I was taken off guard. I mean- my heart just broke. I was sooooo upset. I was also thinking, "Is this really Disney?" because it was tragic!

But- in the end, the overwhelming emotion from the audience means it was a GREAT movie! There is no doubt this was a great movie. The battle scenes were magnificent. The score is exceptional. That fight scene up on the mast in the storm between DJ and JS was one of THE coolest scenes I've ever seen!