i concede that maul would beat mundi but not pwn
but could maul take mundi, shaak ti, aayla secura, tarr seirr, and k'kruhk? no way!
however grievous took them on and almost killed them all had their precise little clones arrived
if grievous could take them all on and maul couldn't do the same then by logic, isnt grievous superior to maul?
and yes the force would be a valuable asset to maul as grievous is lacking of it, but as weve seen so far maul relies on pure PHYSICAL prowress, which grievous has in this case, maul would see it as a challenge but pay for his arragance. while he might try to use the force my question is when is he gonna have time to use it with 4 (or 6 mind you) lightsabers slashing away at him. Grievous could also just use two lighsabers and wait to get in a lock with maul and surprise him with his other arms (much the same way he killed adi gallia). maul wouldnt even see it coming, and yes grievous does way a ton in the clone wars when hes chasing palpatine and that ithorian uses his powerful throat to try and blow grievous away grievous keeps advancing. If maul tried to push him grievous could just dig in his heels and stay put. and unless maul can force-blow you up, he cant kill grievous
Originally posted by Gideon
Yup. Because that was so effective with Obi-Wan...
1. Grievous was off his gaurd and was getting cocky
2. Obi>>>>Maul in the force, Maul would be to busy fending of grievous which wouldnt be long, to use the force and put lots of power behind it.
You didnt address my other comments, whether he could even force push him is below my list of arguments
If Maul does some crazy powerful shit in the comics or novels, I'll take what I'm saying back, however based on my limited knowledge of Star Wars (the films), I'd say that it seems Obi-Wan has Maul beat in the force department, because Maul's greatest showing was what? Chucking a tiny piece of debris into a control panel? Based on what I've seen from the movies, there's no proof that Maul has the strength in the force to chuck something as large as Grievous back such a great distance (with considerable force as well given the way Grievous slams into the giant piece of equipment hanging from the ceiling; it's likely he would have gone much further back if there hadn't been any obstacles in the way).
Also, as alterangel pointed out, Grievous was quite clearly caught off guard by Obi-Wan's sudden attack, given how they had been engaging in saber combat and all. Obi-Wan was clearly dominating, usage of the force wasn't really necessary, so it wouldn't be something Grievous would expect.
Yup. Because that was so effective with Obi-Wan...
I'd also like for you to prove that Obi-Wan >>>> Maul in the Force.
ermm Gideon mate, no offense, but for your first comment to really be taken seriously, it would be up to you to provide the proof for Maul's superiority over Obi-Wan, and not the other way around for alterangel.
Edit - Another point I'd like to add is that Grievous didn't seem to even be too affected by the push really; such an attack doesn't seem to have too great an effect on his armour.
Gideon mate, no offense, but for your first comment to really be taken seriously, it would be up to you to provide the proof for Maul's superiority over Obi-Wan, and not the other way around for alterangel.
None taken.
Now, no offense to you, but you're incorrect. Alterangel made the claim:
2. Obi>>>>Maul in the force, Maul would be to busy fending of grievous which wouldnt be long, to use the force and put lots of power behind it.
...Once someone makes a claim, the burden is on them to prove it. Notice how I did not say that Maul was more powerful than Obi-Wan, I merely demand proof for Alterangel's declaration.
He is to provide the proof. Once I make a claim, then it'll be my turn.
I can see what you're saying Gideon, however if you'd look carefully at my post, you'd see that all I said was that it was up to you to provide said proof if you expected anyone to take your first claim seriously. I never said that archangel was 100% in the right as far as proof goes either, I wasn't dealing with his post, just your's. Anyways, as I was saying, I don't really know too much about what Maul does in the expanded universe. Care to fill me in? Anything on par with what Obi-Wan does in the movies? In regards to usage of the force, that is.
Ah, Ok. The way I see it, Sidious was Maul's Master for a reason, the reason quite clearly being that he was the more powerful of the two. This incarnation of Sidious, around the TPM times, then gained a subsequent 13 or so years to grow stronger, at which point he had become Yoda's equal, as can plainly be seen by how they both apply the exact same power in their lightning battle in RotS where energy builds up in the middle of the two and explodes. Rewind 3 years, and we come to the AotC period, and you'll see Yoda's seemingly best efforts with the force (when he faces much difficulty with preventing the pillar from falling onto Anakin an Obi-Wan at the end of his duel with Count Dooku) being at best on par with Obi-Wan's in RotS. I'd say it's safe to believe that by AotC, Sidious, at most, was Yoda's equal in the force (as it's extremely unlikely that his improvement rate from that point towards RotS would have been inferior to Yoda's given their respective ages), indicating that Obi-Wan's RotS incarnation may have been stronger in the force than Sidious' TPM incarnation, putting him above Maul. Anyway, that's my take on it; if some EU material completely proves my theory wrong, feel free to stop me from rambling on and on.
"Along with Kenobi's lightsaber mastery, he was trained in use of the Mind trick, Force persuasion and the more advanced Dominate Mind skill. As instructed by Qui-Gon Jinn's Force ghost, Obi-Wan learned the ability to become a spirit after death, like his former Master. He would later put this skill to good use, guiding and counseling Luke Skywalker.
Kenobi was also capable of a very powerful Force Push, which he used against Grievous during their duel in 19 BBY."
I got this off starwars.com databank and i checked it on wookieepedia and the phasing is identical.
and it states how that his force push the one on grievous in particular was very powerful, and if you just watch the movie and that clip youll get the feeling of how much he had to put into that push and you can feel the weight grievous has, its call character weight that they put into cg characters and in this case it feels like he ways a lot (thats just me but just watch it and tell me what you think thats just my opinion on the FEEL)
You've just made five posts in a row; it's a complete waste. Use the edit button to add new excerpts of information or think your posts out entirely. This isn't a chat room.
Ah, Ok. The way I see it, Sidious was Maul's Master for a reason, the reason quite clearly being that he was the more powerful of the two. This incarnation of Sidious, around the TPM times, then gained a subsequent 13 or so years to grow stronger, at which point he had become Yoda's equal, as can plainly be seen by how they both apply the exact same power in their lightning battle in RotS where energy builds up in the middle of the two and explodes. Rewind 3 years, and we come to the AotC period, and you'll see Yoda's seemingly best efforts with the force (when he faces much difficulty with preventing the pillar from falling onto Anakin an Obi-Wan at the end of his duel with Count Dooku) being at best on par with Obi-Wan's in RotS. I'd say it's safe to believe that by AotC, Sidious, at most, was Yoda's equal in the force (as it's extremely unlikely that his improvement rate from that point towards RotS would have been inferior to Yoda's given their respective ages), indicating that Obi-Wan's RotS incarnation may have been stronger in the force than Sidious' TPM incarnation, putting him above Maul. Anyway, that's my take on it; if some EU material completely proves my theory wrong, feel free to stop me from rambling on and on.
The problem is that this is absolute speculation. Given what we know about Palpatine, I'd be hesitant to say that any incarnation of Obi-Wan rivals any incarnation of Palpatine in anything. A pre-TPM Sidious was able to use his lightsaber to 'trace Maul's outline' so accurately that, had Maul moved a centimeter, he would have been dismembered according to one of the Darth Maul journals, and given how Palpatine spent most of the following decade as a politician and Chancellor, one must assume that he didn't dedicate most of his time to dark side studies, suggesting limited improvement in the Force.
Furthermore, Yoda's chief weakness is his durability. He has to exert massive amounts of energy to achieve the acrobatics and maneuvers that he does, which is why it was so hard to catch that pillar. Not to mention that he was also fighting gravity, a la the pod scene in RotS when he's fighting Sidious.
...So, no, based on evidence, TPM Sidious would butcher AotC Obi-Wan with laughable ease. As would AotC Sidious and RotS Sidious.
"Along with Kenobi's lightsaber mastery, he was trained in use of the Mind trick, Force persuasion and the more advanced Dominate Mind skill. As instructed by Qui-Gon Jinn's Force ghost, Obi-Wan learned the ability to become a spirit after death, like his former Master. He would later put this skill to good use, guiding and counseling Luke Skywalker.Kenobi was also capable of a very powerful Force Push, which he used against Grievous during their duel in 19 BBY."
Wookipedia is not a canon source. You can't use it for debates.
I got this off starwars.com databank and i checked it on wookieepedia and the phasing is identical.
...Where is this on the databank?
and in the AOTC novel it states that the reason obi defeated general grievous was due to his mastery of Soresu which allowed him to defend against such an onslaught maul doent have that kind of defense to compete with grievous
Obi-Wan didn't fight Grievous in AotC. As for Maul's defense, I'd suggest reading Shadow Hunter. Furthermore, he fended off two Ataru uses [the most aggressive form, excluding Vaapad] simultaneously, despite being injured. Given that he has "pushed his physical and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost", I'd say he has the strength required to fend off Grievous's attacks.
and are we forgetting that grievous almost won had kenobi not used a blaster (grievous wasnt on his gaurd to even anticipate it)
Bullshit.
You are forgetting that that particular scene was a brawl not a duel. Grievous ran like a ***** more than he fought, and comparing Obi-Wan physically to Maul is a joke. Maul is vastly superior to Obi-Wan, physically.
and yes grievous just said to him that hes bout to meet his doom, thats pretty cocky to me
Again, that doesn't necessarily mean that he was "off guard".
its plain common sense that kenobi is more powerful in the force watch the friggin movies
No it isn't. Obi-Wan has simply been shown doing more with the Force. That's like saying Sidious obviously can't use Force Choke, since he was never shown doing it, yet Anakin and Dooku can.
Originally posted by Gideon
The problem is that this is absolute speculation.
Absolutely, but based on my limited knowledge speculation is the best I can give on such a topic.
Given what we know about Palpatine, I'd be hesitant to say that any incarnation of Obi-Wan rivals any incarnation of Palpatine in anything.
I'm sure that's possible, again, I don't really know jack about Palpatine.
A pre-TPM Sidious was able to use his lightsaber to 'trace Maul's outline' so accurately that, had Maul moved a centimeter, he would have been dismembered according to one of the Darth Maul journals,
Don't most capable force users possess some pretty extreme precision? AotC Anakin Skywalker was capable of slicing off those poisonous slug creatures that Zam sent to kill Padme with some pretty quick slices of his saber while they were already on her, and as talented as he was, he didn't seem too powerful or skilled with a saber.
and given how Palpatine spent most of the following decade as a politician and Chancellor, one must assume that he didn't dedicate most of his time to dark side studies, suggesting limited improvement in the Force.
Maybe so, but a decade is a decade, and I'm sure despite his political duties, he would have found plenty of time to train. As for whether or not he could hide such a thing, we know that he could hide his innate force ability as well as his dark nature from the jedi, who I'd assume would be able to use the force to detect such things, so it's likely that hiding the fact that he had been training wouldn't be too hard.
Furthermore, Yoda's chief weakness is his durability. He has to exert massive amounts of energy to achieve the acrobatics and maneuvers that he does, which is why it was so hard to catch that pillar. Not to mention that he was also fighting gravity, a la the pod scene in RotS when he's fighting Sidious.
NMan knows this, silly one.
...So, no, based on evidence, TPM Sidious would butcher AotC Obi-Wan with laughable ease. As would AotC Sidious and RotS Sidious.
I was actually referring to RotS Obi-Wan, and based on evidence so far provided I'm not seeing it. I actually think Obi-Wan's very underrated.
Originally posted by Count Makashi
And to ad to Gideon post, Dooku didn't deem to have to much trouble with Grievous strength and Maul is his superior in that department, by leagues and leagues above.
Does physical strength and speed really matter when you have the force? I mean look at Yoda, without using the force he could barely walk, yet using it, he's pretty much faster than anyone in the movies. Even Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan were capable of moving at insane speeds where they could hardly be followed by the human eye. Dooku himself fought with speed and agility far beyond the physical limitations of his old age. In my personal opinion, Grievous seemed much faster and likely much stronger (mechanical limbs) than Maul did while fighting, and what gave Obi-Wan the edge against him was his precision and general technique - something Maul doesn't seem to have [to the same degree] imho.
Originally posted by Gideon
No it isn't. Obi-Wan has simply been shown doing more with the Force. That's like saying Sidious obviously can't use Force Choke, since he was never shown doing it, yet Anakin and Dooku can.
ok it shows him doing it more in eu and the movies, you cant make arguments like that on a versus forum, i could just say then that just cause you dont see grievous shoot lasers out of his eyes that he can.
its common sense that he can't just as it common sense that obi is stronger in the force than maul, hell he killed him when he was a padwan, u dont think he's more powerful as a MASTER?!?!?!?
and i didnt mean AOTC I meant RotS, i had two things going on in my head.
All i know is that i cant argue with ignorance or wutever it is that is making you argue that maul is stronger than obi, what more proof do you need beside the movies and the comics that obi is more powerful in the force than maul