So, why exactly would anyone say Revan is stronger than Nihilus?

Originally posted by exanda kane
Well, rest assured I do know what it means, and can use it appropriately. Tobin mentioning a "whole fleet" being pulled off of Malachor is subject to hyperbole; it's a piece of explicit exposition that isn't neccessary to the plot, yet it establishes Nihilus as a worthy villain, making his defeat seem all the more glorious to the Exile and thus the player. The same be said of many comments made in the KOTOR saga. They do not neccessarily speak truth, yet are examples of the writers liberously using hyperbole to enhance the drama that is there narrative.

too bad [for you] you werent questioning the size of the fleet but whether he pulled anything other than the ravager out of the mass gravity wells, which would be questioning whether what tobin said was a direct falsehood, not hyperbole

His fleet being what? No one has dared to clarify the size of this fleet and subsequently, all we ever see of this fleet is the Ravagar and squadrons of Sith Fighters. Must we assume, to contradict mine and Darth Sexy's logic, that a hundred Sith capitol ships wait just outside the Telos system, all personally pulled (at the same time of course!) from Malachor's gravity well? Because of course that would comply with the thought that Nihilus, because of his little Phantom of the Opera mask, is an all powerful, seminal demi god?

fortunately i dont give a sh1t about nihilus' supposed demi god status

There are no other capitol ships seen nor mentioned in KOTOR 2. More importantly, given Nihilus' nature, why would Nihilus need a fleet? The destruction of Katarr showed he had no need of a large, planetary bombardment, and that he could simply devour the planet.

Why, if you are susceptible to a primal hunger like Nihilus', waste time dragging a huge fleet out of a gravity well, when you don't even need it?

why bother forming an alliance with sion, if he didnt need it?

point is, such questions cant be accurately answered based on our limited knowledge of nihilus' character, so not only are they needlessly difficult, but useless and achieve nothing

Point in hand, even if Tobin's word can be taken as fact, we do not know how large nor small the fleet was; thus making this a very unreliable point to make as an assertion of Nihilus' power. [/B]

this is me not caring - 😐

Originally posted by IOU
too bad [for you] you werent questioning the size of the fleet but whether he pulled anything other than the ravager out of the mass gravity wells, which would be questioning whether what tobin said was a direct falsehood, not hyperbole

Too bad for you, your a bit behind on the whole developed thought malarkey. I was questioning the size of the fleet because it correlates on a much more relevant sense than whether Tobin lied or was subject to hyperbole; Nilhilus pulled the Ravager off of Malachor, other sources confirm it. What I am asking is what this supposed "fleet" consists of, making it a better method of determining how strong he is.

fortunately i dont give a sh1t about nihilus' supposed demi god status

Good, do us all a favour and stop posting about it then.

why bother forming an alliance with sion, if he didnt need it?

He didn't form an alliance with Sion; he joined the Trayus acedemy where Traya's other student, Sion, resided. Both his and Sion's goals were different, yet both of their paths meant the destruction of Jedi. In Nihilus' case, it was to satisfy his hunger.

point is, such questions cant be accurately answered based on our limited knowledge of nihilus' character, so not only are they needlessly difficult, but useless and achieve nothing

Well I'll be damned. You almost got an inkling of why I was asking these questions. I'll humour you. If you plan to use sources such as this, you first need to ask a few questions concerning the reliability and context in which it exists. This source has not passed that test. It's subject to being unreliable and therefore, using it in a debate will achieve nothing but an outcome created by your own self deception. Take a break from this game kid.

this is me not caring - 😐

That was you conceeding your argument.

Originally posted by IOU
too bad [for you] you werent questioning the size of the fleet but whether he pulled anything other than the ravager out of the mass gravity wells, which would be questioning whether what tobin said was a direct falsehood, not hyperbole

fortunately i dont give a sh1t about nihilus' supposed demi god status

this is me not caring - 😐 [/B]

AFter 7 bans, you still haven't learned how to debate. How sad..

Too bad for you, your a bit behind on the whole developed thought malarkey.

that would have been oh so much slicker if you hadnt included the word 'malarkey'

I was questioning the size of the fleet because it correlates on a much more relevant sense than whether Tobin lied or was subject to hyperbole;

not when u brought up the term 'hyperbole'; you were questioning whether the very thing tobin said was correct or not. ur confusing hyperbole with direct falsehoods here

seeing as ur not getting this, ill make it simple for you

tobin says that nihilus pulled:

a) the ravager

b) the rest of his entire fleet

out of the mass shadows of malachor

what you were originally questioning was the validity of the whole of b), and then labelling it hyperbole

do u honestly not see how that makes no sense? now if you questioned whether tobin was correct in saying that he pulled his entire fleet, or not just a portion of it, and then labelled it hyperbole, it would be all good and dandy, but thats not what u did, ergo its not all good and dandy

Nilhilus pulled the Ravager off of Malachor, other sources confirm it. What I am asking is what this supposed "fleet" consists of, making it a better method of determining how strong he is.

again, not caring

Good, do us all a favour and stop posting about it then.

as soon as you stop bothering the forum with your philosophical mumbo jumbo

He didn't form an alliance with Sion; he joined the Trayus acedemy where Traya's other student, Sion, resided. Both his and Sion's goals were different, yet both of their paths meant the destruction of Jedi. In Nihilus' case, it was to satisfy his hunger.

yes, and what about when they both exiled traya and were no longer students? they joined forces and worked towards the same goal. thats what ud call an alliance dipsh1t. and way to miss the point, the point i was making was that that very question was parallel to yours where theres seemingly no accurate answer because we simply dont know enough about the characters

Well I'll be damned. You almost got an inkling of why I was asking these questions. I'll humour you. If you plan to use sources such as this, you first need to ask a few questions concerning the reliability and context in which it exists. This source has not passed that test. It's subject to being unreliable and therefore, using it in a debate will achieve nothing but an outcome created by your own self deception. Take a break from this game kid.

except your only evidence going against it is flawed as i just pointed out, ergo uve yet to make a counter against what allankles and the nman supporters have been saying

point is, when arguing in respect to a fictional setting, very little can be undeniably proved, so we have to form arguments based on what we know. until you can prove that tobin was either uninformed, or lying, in any way, what he says is accepted by default

uve yet to do so, all uve done is bring up these useless questions which proves nothing

That was you conceding your argument.

wow, looks like someone needs to learn how to read

you were blabbering about how we cant know exactly how large the fleet was; i was never arguing for or against that, ergo me not caring =/= me conceding

know what ur talking about fool

Originally posted by IOU
not when u brought up the term 'hyperbole'; you were questioning whether the very thing tobin said was correct or not. ur confusing hyperbole with direct falsehoods here

That was my second point, giving you a what if scenario, becuase you seem to like dealing with mistruths. Darth Sexy has already proved your argument is flawed.

By saying this: 'Too bad for you that when a person is referred to as a fallible 3rd party character, his or her statements are regarded AS hyperbole.'

lol...

You guys play nicely I or will pull this car over!!!

Anyway...there is no need for name calling IOU. Remember, this is "teh interwebs".

I tend to agree with exanda kane because we do only see the ravager. I do not think he pulled a whole fleet out...plot hole mistake by the writers or is it designed hyperbole intended for Tobin's character?

This is an unknown right now.

Originally posted by IOU
that would have been oh so much slicker if you hadnt included the word 'malarkey'

How very charming. “slicker” is such a 90s term.

seeing as ur not getting this, ill make it simple for you

tobin says that nihilus pulled:

Darth Sexy has already mentioned he is a fallible 3rd party character. This makes anything he says fallible, less it is backed up by any more concrete evidence. Use sources of this nature to support your argument, not become your argument (that was a hint there!).

But to indulge you, let’s play your rules (as sloppy as they are).

a) the ravager

We see the Ravager in game and a loading screen confirms this also, even your eyes might have noticed that. Tobin’s hyperbole doesn’t even effect this truth.

b) the rest of his entire fleet

The rest of his fleet being what? The very nature of this quote is hyperbole; no doubt there is a fleet, but how large is it? You appear (I’m not sure what your doing in all fairness) to be making a half arsed case for Nihilus, using this source as an example of his power. The flaw is we do not know how large nor small this is, thus making this a very unreliable example.

Playing by your rules however, lets let the tiny bit of unreliable evidence be our whole argument. The only “fleet” we see of Nihilus’, is that that attacks Telos; the Ravager and a squadron of Sith Fighters. That’s it, the whole Fleet. Not a very strong case for an argument.

out of the mass shadows of malachor

Give me an in-depth and analytical summise of a mass shadow, i.e. how much force (or Force if you want to make somes friends in the “playground”) is needed to tear a ship from it?

what you were originally questioning was the validity of the whole of b), and then labelling it hyperbole

It is hyperbole.

do u honestly not see how that makes no sense? now if you questioned whether tobin was correct in saying that he pulled his entire fleet, or not just a portion of it, and then labelled it hyperbole, it would be all good and dandy, but thats not what u did, ergo its not all good and dandy

Not all is fine and dandy in the world of logic. The catalyst was you it appears.

again, not caring

Amusing to watch you squirm though.

as soon as you stop bothering the forum with your philosophical mumbo jumbo

I’m sure there is some kind of dramatic irony here that is lost on you, probably concerning the use of “bothering the forum” and the fact that you have been banned numerous times.

yes, and what about when they both exiled traya and were no longer students? they joined forces and worked towards the same goal.

Evidence?

As Visas explicitly states, there are many factions of Sith, each warring against each other. This is yet another flaw in your cobbled together mezra of illogical reason.

thats what ud call an alliance dipsh1t.

Name the treaty they signed and when and where it was signed, if it was a so-called alliance.

and way to miss the point, the point i was making was that that very question was parallel to yours where theres seemingly no accurate answer because we simply dont know enough about the characters

Your point obviously wasn’t executed well enough, or simply was fundamentally flawed. My questions were relevant to the matter of this so-called “fleet”, yours was a midly related retort which I could answer.

except your only evidence going against it is flawed as i just pointed out, ergo uve yet to make a counter against what allankles and the nman supporters have been saying

Don’t go pointing accusatory fingers when your own excretion stinks so much of nutcase-logic.

point is, when arguing in respect to a fictional setting, very little can be undeniably proved, so we have to form arguments based on what we know. until you can prove that tobin was either uninformed, or lying, in any way, what he says is accepted by default

As I have said, you can choose to ignore the unreliability of your sources, ignore their contexts and basically write your own history, but the conclusions you’ll come to are even more fictionalised than the material your dealing with.

Nonetheless, a fallible 3rd party source negates any kind of rebuttle on your behalf even before you begin.

uve yet to do so, all uve done is bring up these useless questions which proves nothing

And you’ve yet to do anything (including make an intelligent, analytical comment without an obvious flaw) likewise; at least I’ve posed a few questions which could have had you arriving at a falsified conclusion.

wow, looks like someone needs to learn how to read

I’d love to include a retort here about your spelling and grammar, but I don’t think I’d go so low. Oops.

you were blabbering about how we cant know exactly how large the fleet was; i was never arguing for or against that, ergo me not caring =/= me conceding

Then why have you put up a defense (albeit a terribly flawed one)? Surely, if you did not care about my valid criticism of the source, then you should not have posted. But look at this! You have replied, multiple times, and while I may like to indulge myself in all sorts of wonderful conclusions; I can infact realise that my valid criticism of your source (along with Darth Sexy’s season-opener) absolutedly destroyed any kind of credibility you or your argument once had*.

know what ur talking about fool [/B]

Oh stop the lingo, my sense of dignity cannot take it. What you think this is kid, a movie?

(*We are talking of the days of superstition and the church, a time of degredation and newtork television. Cretin.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
You guys play nicely I or will pull this car over!!!

Anyway...there is no need for name calling IOU. Remember, this is "teh interwebs".

I tend to agree with exanda kane because we do only see the ravager. I do not think he pulled a whole fleet out...plot hole mistake by the writers or is it designed hyperbole intended for Tobin's character?

This is an unknown right now.

Wisdom!

I like it. 🙂

before responding to the rest of your points, ill take note that you took my points out of context

Darth Sexy has already mentioned he is a fallible 3rd party character. This makes anything he says fallible, less it is backed up by any more concrete evidence. Use sources of this nature to support your argument, not become your argument (that was a hint there!).

But to indulge you, let’s play your rules (as sloppy as they are).

gosh, i feel like im talking to a 7 year old. i really dont like having to repeat myself exanda, PAY MORE ATTENTION!!

1. theres nothing to suggest he was uninformed

2. theres nothing to suggest he was lying

3. much of what he says is being backed up by the loading screen.

so im sorry exanda, but those three points makes what he says a fact by default

The rest of his fleet being what? The very nature of this quote is hyperbole; no doubt there is a fleet, but how large is it? You appear (I’m not sure what your doing in all fairness) to be making a half arsed case for Nihilus, using this source as an example of his power. The flaw is we do not know how large nor small this is, thus making this a very unreliable example.

Playing by your rules however, lets let the tiny bit of unreliable evidence be our whole argument. The only “fleet” we see of Nihilus’, is that that attacks Telos; the Ravager and a squadron of Sith Fighters. That’s it, the whole Fleet. Not a very strong case for an argument.

😂 😂
oh my days, how can this idiot still not get it, do you actually need han solo to walk up to you in a thong and tell you that i dont give a sh1t about nihilus for u 2 accept it? seriously...

Evidence?

As Visas explicitly states, there are many factions of Sith, each warring against each other. This is yet another flaw in your cobbled together mezra of illogical reason.

OWNED!!

'Our Alliance is finished. I have no need of you'

those three points pretty much cover everything, the rest of your sh1t really isnt worth responding to, but really, bravo at taking my points out of context and attempting to conceal your inability to counter my arguments with some dry british humour, real impressive

Originally posted by exanda kane
Well, rest assured I do know what it means, and can use it appropriately. Tobin mentioning a "whole fleet" being pulled off of Malachor is subject to hyperbole; it's a piece of explicit exposition that isn't neccessary to the plot, yet it establishes Nihilus as a worthy villain, making his defeat seem all the more glorious to the Exile and thus the player. The same be said of many comments made in the KOTOR saga. They do not neccessarily speak truth, yet are examples of the writers liberously using hyperbole to enhance the drama that is there narrative.

You people are arguing this all wrong. First of all it's not hyperbole and as IOU mentioned the word gets thrown around too much on here without a full understanding of what it entails in certain context. Tobin isn't making a claim that would qualify as hyperbole, he is retelling an event that occurred.

It's significantly different from what exanda is talking about which is where writers use descriptive that can't be quantified to hype up the characters, case in point "nearly unstoppable" being used to describe Malak.

I don't want to claim that you don't know the meaning of the word hyperbole, but in this case you've quite clearly misinterpreted it's place. Tobin was retelling an event, not making a baseless claim. It's quite clearly not hyperbole. The only point worth discussing here is the size of Nihilus' fleet.

And as far as the loading screens go, they never state that Nihilus ONLY lifted his ship, only that he did lift his ship off of Malachor. So I don't get how anyone can claim that the loading screens disprove anything Tobin said.

And as far as Tobin's credibility why does he need to know about the force to understand what Nihilus did with his fleet? He proved that he knew more about Nihilus than anyone not named Kreia. He's a source of information on Nihilus in Kotor 2, he's certainly a credible source. He retells an event that had a specific outcome, I don't see what is so unreliable about a retelling of an event.

Let's not forget that Tobin had a good idea about the Sith arts and was a close ally of Nihilus before being defeated on Onderon, as well as being force bonded to Nihilus on the Ravager, so he's credibility isn't as fallible as some would like.

Originally posted by IOU

oh my days, how can this idiot still not get it, do you actually need han solo to walk up to you in a thong and tell you that i dont give a sh1t about nihilus for u 2 accept it? seriously...

So what was your point? After around five or six posts you still have not clarified it (Well you may have tried, but it wasn't in any way they'd allow before the watershed).

or maybe your reading comprehension sucks donkey dick, as ive made it perfectly clear that i dont give a fvck about nihilus' supposed power level and just wanted to make a few other unrelated points

Originally posted by IOU
1. theres nothing to suggest he was uninformed

No, there isn't anything to suggest he was uninformed, but as the details are dubious we can only dispute the reliability. The very use of the term "entire fleet" is exuberant in its nature.

2. theres nothing to suggest he was lying

Not to his knowledge, as has been said by me however, is that there's nothing to suggest "entire fleet" is more than one capitol ship and a squadron of fighers, leaving his comments susceptible to exaggeration.

3. much of what he says is being backed up by the loading screen.

But my criticism isn't. Your agruing semantics to an unsatisfying detail with no fruit.

Originally posted by IOU
or maybe your reading comprehension sucks donkey dick, as ive made it perfectly clear that i dont give a fvck about nihilus' supposed power level and just wanted to make a few other unrelated points

Seventh attempt lucky! Will you please articulate your point in certain terms for us all to hear?

Originally posted by IOU
OWNED!!

'Our Alliance is finished. I have no need of you'

those three points pretty much cover everything, the rest of your sh1t really isnt worth responding to, but really, bravo at taking my points out of context and attempting to conceal your inability to counter my arguments with some dry british humour, real impressive

That's a very liberous use of the word "alliance".

Relating this back to its initial point, it shows nothing of Nihilus needing to supply Sion with the fleet he ripped from Malachor's gravity, thus enforcing the fact that these two, while loosely connected via the Sith Triumvirate, had two different goals.

However, this is all moot to you, correct? You conceeded any responsibility for the Nihilus argument a long time ago.

Originally posted by exanda kane
No, there isn't anything to suggest he was uninformed, but as the details are dubious we can only dispute the reliability. The very use of the term "entire fleet" is exuberant in its nature.

grow a new brain b1tch, logic points far more to tobin being extremely informed on the matter, thus its the stance that should be taken by default

Not to his knowledge,

this males zero sense, lying in its nature is purposefully relaying a falsehood

as has been said by me however, is that there's nothing to suggest "entire fleet" is more than one capitol ship and a squadron of fighers, leaving his comments susceptible to exaggeration.

refer to what allankles was just saying, thats not what youd call an exaggeration, the definition of fleet is 'a group of aircraft operating together under the same ownership', thats exactly what tobin was attempting to relay, which completely fits in with the definition

But my criticism isn't. Your agruing semantics to an unsatisfying detail with no fruit.

way to miss the point, which was that the loading screen backing up part of what tobin was saying makes it pretty clear that he was on a whole pretty well informed.

You have valid points Allankles and yes, I did you the term "hyperbole" in a very meandering fashion. I'm quite aware of that.

Originally posted by Allankles
You people are arguing this all wrong. First of all it's not hyperbole and as IOU mentioned the word gets thrown around too much on here without a full understanding of what it entails in certain context. Tobin isn't making a claim that would qualify as hyperbole, he is retelling an event that occurred.

It's significantly different from what exanda is talking about which is where writers use descriptive that can't be quantified to hype up the characters, case in point "nearly unstoppable" being used to describe Malak.

I don't want to claim that you don't know the meaning of the word hyperbole, but in this case you've quite clearly misinterpreted it's place. Tobin was retelling an event, not making a baseless claim. It's quite clearly not hyperbole. The only point worth discussing here is the size of Nihilus' fleet.

And as far as the loading screens go, they never state that Nihilus ONLY lifted his ship, only that he did lift his ship off of Malachor. So I don't get how anyone can claim that the loading screens disprove anything Tobin said.

And as far as Tobin's credibility why does he need to know about the force to understand what Nihilus did with his fleet? He proved that he knew more about Nihilus than anyone not named Kreia. He's a source of information on Nihilus in Kotor 2, he's certainly a credible source. He retells an event that had a specific outcome, I don't see what is so unreliable about a retelling of an event.

Let's not forget that Tobin had a good idea about the Sith arts and was a close ally of Nihilus before being defeated on Onderon, as well as being force bonded to Nihilus on the Ravager, so he's credibility isn't as fallible as some would like.

I would still argue, though not with the conviction I did with Malak's comment, that Tobin's comment is subject to some form of exageration, even if unintended.

My evidence is that we only ever see one capitol ship, the Ravager, and squadrons of Sith Fighters, while Tobin maintains that Nihilus ripped "an entire fleet" from the mass shadow of Malachor. There may be other ships, part of that supposed fleet, but why on earth would Nihilus need them? His only instinct is hunger, and his primal ability is sufficent to fulfill that need, he doesn't need ships.

I would argue that it's this unncessary flourish that hints at a character trait, which could result in over exuberant remarks.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Seventh attempt lucky! Will you please articulate your point in certain terms for us all to hear?

well it was pretty clear that allankes understood my original point, so perhaps the problem lies with you and not me.

Originally posted by IOU
[B]grow a new brain b1tch, logic points far more to tobin being extremely informed on the matter, thus its the stance that should be taken by default

Ultimately, yes, you might have to take this comment at face value, but the very fact that we are having a debate about it, it's logical too assume that one of us see's more in a throwaway comment than the other. That one would be me, the one not relying on crude insults.