Originally posted by Mr Master
That's more plausible, I can agree with that.You'd still need the other Gems in the end regardless though.
Time Gem and Reality Gem, together,
prove to be the greatest combination: 🙂
The Infinity Being (known as Nemesis) is formed again, and the Gem's true powers are realized.
"What we have witnessed and experienced of TWO Universes must be UNDONE!"
"in the blink of an eye the Being called Nemesis Obliterates Two Universes "
"not with destructive force, but with a wave of creative energy.
Thus Reality is not brought to the edge of apocalypse, but its very Origins"
After obliterating the Two Universes, Nemesis began to create,
"a brief sketch of a working Universe, a few thousand miles across, Containing Elements of UniverseS It'd Experienced"
When the Black Night shattered the union of the Infinity gems located on Nemesis's head, the Infinity Being's power was unleashed in Waves of creation energy.
The first Wave created a New Universe,
"Everything begins again"
"Something bigger than us claps its hands, and so the Universe blooms"
continues in the next post...
But it didn't stop there,
EVERY Wave that followed the first one CREATED a New Reality, but in doing so it was destroying the same Reality/Universes that were being created because,
the Time and Reality Gems separated from the rest of the Gems one nanosecond after the FIRST Wave was released, so the resulting Realities/Universes were created without the stable Concept of Time, damaging the fabric of Reality.
The Reality Gem took Amber Hunt as a Host, and they went seeking the Time Gem, to try and stop the Nemesis Waves before they started by manipulating Time and Reality together.
"Each New Wave CREATED another New Reality"
They reach Warstrike's Kingdom located in a Reality created by the Nemesis Wave.
"Is this all that is left of the World?" ... "Only in THIS Reality"
"ANOTHER Time, a DIFFERENT Reality, in the castle of Warstrike"
Warstrike's daughter had the Time Gem, and Amber and the Reality Gem were there to get it back, Amber let's them know that this Reality is unnatural.
"I've come for the Gem your daughter holds, it doesn't belong here, NOTHING belongs here"
"What do you mean NOTHING belongs here?" ... "This whole Reality is wrong"
"These Two Gems (Time-Reality) must be reunited, otherwise ALL REALITIES, including this one, will be destroyed, I have to use them to CREATE a New and stronger Reality, one whose Fabric isn't unravelling as this one is"
So after acquiring the Time Gem, together with the Reality Gem Amber returns to a nanosecond after the Gems were split up, where the Time Gem Froze Nemesis:
What for?
"Due to the exposure to the Entity (Nemesis) your body now holds the power to absorb the Nemesis Waves and then release it as harmless energy"
And so she does:
The end...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Of course you would, that's my whole point. It's THEORETICALLY possible to use the Reality Gem and Power Gem in union to accomplish anything possible with the IG, but the risk of warping reality at THAT level without the other gems present to control it would be unbelievable.
I agree.
Hey Mr. M I was just thinking about it, and I came up with a theory I wanted to run by you. Now we've established that the other gems are necessary to ensure control over the Reality Gem, but the question that remains it WHY(which is what my theory concerns). So here's what I was just thinking....
Those possessing the IG experience a rush of info from all the various aspects of Reality right? We even see this when Thanos first assembles the IG...
"Nothing that ever was or will be can hide from my inspection."
"Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept."
"No thought shall remain secret from me, every mind is mine to open and examine."
Now Thanos didn't make any direct references to added sensory input because he started talking about Warlock, but it's pretty well established that a wielder of the Soul Gem has the ability to look into the Souls of others, so just think of that input backed by the Power Gem and you get a pretty clear picture of what it contributes.
Now the funny thing is, it's NEVER been touched upon as to what info is provided by a completed the Power or Reality Gems...
See? No mention of added sensory input do to the Power Gem. It DOES however say that it's the gem that allows thought to become reality, which supports the theory that a combination of the Power and Reality Gem could theoretically accomplish anything possible with the IG.
And as for the Reality Gem...
There's no added sensory input established there either. In fact if you look closely at the images between the two halves of Thanos's head, it's all things that he saw when he established what he received from the other gems.
This type of thing was further established when Magus was in possession of an incomplete IG as well...
Magus speaks of the input from the Infinity Gems just as Thanos did, even though he lacked the Reality Gem. So it seems to me that that the Reality and Power Gems sole purpose is to DO stuff, not to KNOW stuff.
So here's my theory on the matter. It's the Power Gem/Reality Gem combo that provides the actual omnipotence provided by the IG. The other gems contribution is sensory input from the various aspects of reality that make up the OMNISCIENCE provided by a completed IG. See my idea is that the other gems are necessary to grant the user full knowledge of just HOW he's messing with reality at any given moment. Without that knowledge, you could alter some fundamental law of reality unknowingly and create a rift(like the one that Warlock traversed) that could/would destroy EVERYTHING(the rift Warlock traversed encompassed several realities as it is, backed by the power gem that rift would have easily spanned the entire multiverse).
So what do you think?
Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree,that's the issue I was talking about from Warlock Chronicles,
that's not the Reality Gem at it's full capacity, that's just a Rift in Time and Space that was gradually warping Reality into madness. At full capacity the Reality Gem would have warped the entire Universe in one instant, it would have created a rift that Warlock would have not survived, like he did this one when he dove in it.
If the same results were possible, the IG would be pointless.
Thanks, Master. 👆
Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey Mr. M I was just thinking about it, and I came up with a theory I wanted to run by you. Now we've established that the other gems are necessary to ensure control over the Reality Gem, but the question that remains it WHY(which is what my theory concerns). So here's what I was just thinking....Those possessing the IG experience a rush of info from all the various aspects of Reality right? We even see this when Thanos first assembles the IG...
"Nothing that ever was or will be can hide from my inspection."
"Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept."
"No thought shall remain secret from me, every mind is mine to open and examine."
Now Thanos didn't make any direct references to added sensory input because he started talking about Warlock, but it's pretty well established that a wielder of the Soul Gem has the ability to look into the Souls of others, so just think of that input backed by the Power Gem and you get a pretty clear picture of what it contributes.Now the funny thing is, it's NEVER been touched upon as to what info is provided by a completed the Power or Reality Gems...
See? No mention of added sensory input do to the Power Gem. It DOES however say that it's the gem that allows thought to become reality, which supports the theory that a combination of the Power and Reality Gem could theoretically accomplish anything possible with the IG.And as for the Reality Gem...
There's no added sensory input established there either. In fact if you look closely at the images between the two halves of Thanos's head, it's all things that he saw when he established what he received from the other gems.This type of thing was further established when Magus was in possession of an incomplete IG as well...
Magus speaks of the input from the Infinity Gems just as Thanos did, even though he lacked the Reality Gem. So it seems to me that that the Reality and Power Gems sole purpose is to DO stuff, not to KNOW stuff.
So here's my theory on the matter. It's the Power Gem/Reality Gem combo that provides the actual omnipotence provided by the IG. The other gems contribution is sensory input from the various aspects of reality that make up the OMNISCIENCE provided by a completed IG. See my idea is that the other gems are necessary to grant the user full knowledge of just HOW he's messing with reality at any given moment. Without that knowledge, you could alter some fundamental law of reality unknowingly and create a rift(like the one that Warlock traversed) that could/would destroy EVERYTHING(the rift Warlock traversed encompassed several realities as it is, backed by the power gem that rift would have easily spanned the entire multiverse).
So what do you think?
hmm, that may be plausible. it is difficult to infer too much about the relative power of each gem. i guess i've always thought the reality gem was sort of a . . . dull knife, while the individual pieces are more like scalpels.
i'd say that the reality gem wielder could mold time, but i'd say the wielder of the time gem would have better control of time. if both were backed by the power gem, i'd say it would come down to a quick-draw battle because imo TIME would supercede the reality gem's control of time, but if reality struck first, it could essentially just . . . remove time from existence. 😬
likewise with the other gems. reality is an umbrella, capable of doing all things, but not to the degree the individual gems are capable of doing them. i'd say that any gem v any gem would be a quick-draw scenario if both were backed by the power gem and all were used to their fullest.
Originally posted by leonidas
reality is an umbrella, capable of doing all things, but not to the degree the individual gems are capable of doing them. i'd say that any gem v any gem would be a quick-draw scenario if both were backed by the power gem and all were used to their fullest.
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, that may be plausible. it is difficult to infer too much about the relative power of each gem. i guess i've always thought the reality gem was sort of a . . . dull knife, while the individual pieces are more like scalpels.i'd say that the reality gem wielder could mold time, but i'd say the wielder of the time gem would have better control of time. if both were backed by the power gem, i'd say it would come down to a quick-draw battle because imo TIME would supercede the reality gem's control of time, but if reality struck first, it could essentially just . . . remove time from existence. 😬
likewise with the other gems. reality is an umbrella, capable of doing all things, but not to the degree the individual gems are capable of doing them. i'd say that any gem v any gem would be a quick-draw scenario if both were backed by the power gem and all were used to their fullest.
The way I see it, the Power Gem combined with one of the other gems allows it user to do anything possible within the gem's respective aspect. But the Power Gem combined with the Reality Gem will allow you to CHANGE what's possible in the first place by rewriting the laws of reality itself(making your effect the rule, rather than just a specific effect). Using the Reality Gem like that allows you to do things like change the equation of...
2+2=4
Into...
2+2=Yellow.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't know about the whole "Dull knife" comparison. The one time(to my knowledge) that Thanos actually USED the Reality Gem after it was intrusted to him, he actually brought Captain Mar-Vell back from the dead. That in and of itself technically utilized the various aspects of existence(with the exception of Time) with a finer degree of control than any of the other gems have showed.The way I see it, the Power Gem combined with one of the other gems allows it user to do anything possible within the gem's respective aspect. But the Power Gem combined with the Reality Gem will allow you to CHANGE what's possible in the first place by rewriting the laws of reality itself(making your effect the rule, rather than just a specific effect). Using the Reality Gem like that allows you to do things like change the equation of...
2+2=4
Into...
2+2=Yellow.
i get what you're saying. i think it's just a bit counter-intuitive as regards the proposed nature of each gem. true, reality WILL allow you to change what is possible. i'm comparing strictly on the basis of the reality gem vs the various individual aspects.
yes the RG has more versatility, no doubt, and it can do some of what each can do individually. but it comes down to control again, imo. if the RG wielder did something to time, i'd say the TG could rectify whatever it did. if the TG did something to time, the RG might be able to . . . i don't know, change reality so that time has no meaning there? but it would not allow the wielder to simply overcome whatever effect on time the TG manifested.
each has its own domain -- and each is supreme in said domain. RG has the advantage that it could sort of do an end run around the effects of any of the other but if the TG wielder froze time (that would include thought and everything) the RG wielder would be screwed. likewise the TG wielder would be screwed if the RG got off the first shot.
an interesting question would be who gets first shot . . .?
i think it's an unanswerable question. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
i get what you're saying. i think it's just a bit counter-intuitive as regards the proposed nature of each gem. true, reality WILL allow you to change what is possible. i'm comparing strictly on the basis of the reality gem vs the various individual aspects.yes the RG has more versatility, no doubt, and it can do some of what each can do individually. but it comes down to control again, imo. if the RG wielder did something to time, i'd say the TG could rectify whatever it did. if the TG did something to time, the RG might be able to . . . i don't know, change reality so that time has no meaning there? but it would not allow the wielder to simply overcome whatever effect on time the TG manifested.
each has its own domain -- and each is supreme in said domain. RG has the advantage that it could sort of do an end run around the effects of any of the other but if the TG wielder froze time (that would include thought and everything) the RG wielder would be screwed. likewise the TG wielder would be screwed if the RG got off the first shot.
an interesting question would be who gets first shot . . .?
i think it's an unanswerable question. 🙂
Here think about this(I'll use your time example).I understand what you're saying about the first shot factor, so to make things simple I'll assume simultaneous thoughts from each user)
Time Gem user thinks "FREEZE HIM IN TIME!"
Reality Gem user thinks "TIME FREEZES AREN'T ALLOWED"
And there you go, the Reality gem user just altered the rules of reality to bar the option of time freezes thus overriding the Time Gem users authority on the matter because time is simply an aspect of reality. By the same token the Reality Gem user could have simply thought "I'm immune to time freezes" and avoided the effect as well.
The thing is that the other gems have to work within the system, but the Reality Gem can work outside of the system. If a user of the Time Gem wants to alter the timeline so that Hitler was never born he goes back into the past and stops his mom and dad from meeting, and everything else unfolds differently under the new timeline. The Reality Gem user is able to say "Hitler never existed" and that's that. IMO the Reality Gem is the one that provides a greater degree of control over the individual aspects of the gems because it's not necessary for him to get involved directly with whatever effects he's trying to accomplish.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I still don't know, because at it's fundamental level the Reality Gem controls the laws of the universe. It can effectively control what's REAL.Here think about this(I'll use your time example).I understand what you're saying about the first shot factor, so to make things simple I'll assume simultaneous thoughts from each user)
Time Gem user thinks "FREEZE HIM IN TIME!"
Reality Gem user thinks "TIME FREEZES AREN'T ALLOWED"
And there you go, the Reality gem user just altered the rules of reality to bar the option of time freezes thus overriding the Time Gem users authority on the matter because time is simply an aspect of reality. By the same token the Reality Gem user could have simply thought "I'm immune to time freezes" and avoided the effect as well.
The thing is that the other gems have to work within the system, but the Reality Gem can work outside of the system. If a user of the Time Gem wants to alter the timeline so that Hitler was never born he goes back into the past and stops his mom and dad from meeting, and everything else unfolds differently under the new timeline. The Reality Gem user is able to say "Hitler never existed" and that's that. IMO the Reality Gem is the one that provides a greater degree of control over the individual aspects of the gems because it's not necessary for him to get involved directly with whatever effects he's trying to accomplish.
you said the same thng i said, you just . . . came to a different conclusion somehow. 😬
i said the RG gives more versatility and so as a result it can do end-arounds and supercede each gem by utilizing an aspect OUTSIDE that individual gem's purview. that's why i used time vs time (TG's 'time control' vs RG's 'time control'😉
if it came down to a battle of 'time' vs 'time' control, TG wins because that is its domain. but the RG could do OTHER things to supercede the TG's control or dominance in that particular domain.
to use your example, if it was simultaneous and the TG said freeze time, but did not for whatever reason freeze THOUGHT (which WOULD be frozen . . .) the RG could not say -- unfreeze time. the TG supercede's the RG's time control. he COULD however say let's just eliminate time altogether.
if that makes sense. it still comes down to quick-draw. the RG wielder simply has more ways to take out the TG wielder than vice-versa, imo.
Originally posted by leonidas
i get what you're saying. i think it's just a bit counter-intuitive as regards the proposed nature of each gem. true, reality WILL allow you to change what is possible. i'm comparing strictly on the basis of the reality gem vs the various individual aspects.yes the RG has more versatility, no doubt, and it can do some of what each can do individually. but it comes down to control again, imo. if the RG wielder did something to time, i'd say the TG could rectify whatever it did. if the TG did something to time, the RG might be able to . . . i don't know, change reality so that time has no meaning there? but it would not allow the wielder to simply overcome whatever effect on time the TG manifested.
each has its own domain -- and each is supreme in said domain. RG has the advantage that it could sort of do an end run around the effects of any of the other but if the TG wielder froze time (that would include thought and everything) the RG wielder would be screwed. likewise the TG wielder would be screwed if the RG got off the first shot.
an interesting question would be who gets first shot . . .?
i think it's an unanswerable question. 🙂
I understand where you're coming from, saying that each gem is the master of its individual domain, however you have to look at what reality itself is. Reality, as we know it, is the TIME/SPACE continuum. Meaning, both the space gem and the time gem are only manipulating portions of what makes up reality.
If the power gem were to back up the reality gem with an unlimited supply of energy for it to work, it would have complete control over all aspects of reality. This includes both time, and space.
It's stated that the space gem manipulates distances between points in reality. Meaning, someone with it uses "mental teleportation," as Thanos put it. The user subconsciously manipulates distances in space.
The time gem really needs no explanation, it is what it is. Someone with it has complete mastery over time.
If someone had the reality gem backed by the power gem, then he'd have complete control over reality itself. This includes both facets of reality, including space and time. I think this would allow complete mastery over both aspects, making the space and time gems theoretically redundant.
Originally posted by leonidas
you said the same thng i said, you just . . . came to a different conclusion somehow. 😬i said the RG gives more versatility and so as a result it can do end-arounds and supercede each gem by utilizing an aspect OUTSIDE that individual gem's purview. that's why i used time vs time (TG's 'time control' vs RG's 'time control'😉
if it came down to a battle of 'time' vs 'time' control, TG wins because that is its domain. but the RG could do OTHER things to supercede the TG's control or dominance in that particular domain.
to use your example, if it was simultaneous and the TG said freeze time, but did not for whatever reason freeze THOUGHT (which WOULD be frozen . . .) the RG could not say -- unfreeze time. the TG supercede's the RG's time control. he COULD however say let's just eliminate time altogether.
if that makes sense. it still comes down to quick-draw. the RG wielder simply has more ways to take out the TG wielder than vice-versa, imo.
Originally posted by batdude123
I think this would allow complete mastery over both aspects, making the space and time gems theoretically redundant.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Not really. After all don't forget that it's the individual gems that provide the sensory input and without that there's a good chance the whole universe would get flushed down the tubes do to the users lack of information.
I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.
IF someone with the reality gem and power gem is granted COMPLETE MASTERY over reality (and all things that make up reality), the user would also have complete control over both time and space. Time and space are the aspects that make up reality in the first place.
It's like someone who is a perfect basketball player in all aspects, and a guy who is perfect at dribbling only. Dribbling is an aspect of basketball, yet the perfect basketball player can dribble perfectly and do everything else in basketball perfectly. If that analogy makes sense to you. 😑
it's actually a good analogy. your saying then that the control of the single aspect of time would be equal. meh, i can see that logically, but still don't accept it because your take on the gems, like goob's, is counter-intuitive.
i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant. 😬
to speculate that one gem or a group of them could make the others redundant however is going against the nature of the gems as they have been described. time=absolute master of time, etc. there is no 'logical' stance so to speak behind my argument other than the intended design of the gems themselves. it would seem to me that 'reality' was broken up differently than the way you are both portraying it when the IB created the gems. it's possible reality is something OTHER than time and space, BECAUSE time and space and reality are all seperate gems.
if the TG gives absolute mastery over time, how can the RG supercede the TG's control? but breaking down reality as YOU have, it's hard to see the TG superceding the RG's control of time as well. i'll not accept the argument that one gem makes the other redundant however as that goes against the intended design of the gems and counter-intuitive arguments never hold much weight for me. 😬
Originally posted by Mr MasterI agree....... From a "real world" point of view..
how can you influence the concept of Time, on someone who controls Reality around them? Time is an aspect of Reality as is Space and everything in between.
But,
If time and space can be manipulated by the reality gem, then why would there be a need for time and space gems? 😕
IMO,
They are separate entities, [from a comic standpoint]..
Originally posted by leonidas
it's actually a good analogy. your saying then that the control of the single aspect of time would be equal. meh, i can see that logically, but still don't accept it because your take on the gems, like goob's, is counter-intuitive.i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant. 😬
to speculate that one gem or a group of them could make the others redundant however is going against the nature of the gems as they have been described. time=absolute master of time, etc. there is no 'logical' stance so to speak behind my argument other than the intended design of the gems themselves. it would seem to me that 'reality' was broken up differently than the way you are both portraying it when the IB created the gems. it's possible reality is something OTHER than time and space, BECAUSE time and space and reality are all seperate gems.
if the TG gives absolute mastery over time, how can the RG supercede the TG's control? but breaking down reality as YOU have, it's hard to see the TG superceding the RG's control of time as well. i'll not accept the argument that one gem makes the other redundant however as that goes against the intended design of the gems and counter-intuitive arguments never hold much weight for me. 😬
Originally posted by leonidas
i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant. 😬
The thing is we actually HAVE an actual instance of the gems being used together without the Reality Gems. And what happened....
A disruption in the flow of reality. Like I said, any of the gems backed by the Power Gem can do anything within the boundary's of it's respective sphere, but the Reality Gem is necessary if your wanting to change those boundaries or work outside of them.
