The Gardner w/ the Time Gem vs. The Collector w/ the Reality Gem

Originally posted by batdude123
I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

IF someone with the reality gem and power gem is granted COMPLETE MASTERY over reality (and all things that make up reality), the user would also have complete control over both time and space. Time and space are the aspects that make up reality in the first place.

It's like someone who is a perfect basketball player in all aspects, and a guy who is perfect at dribbling only. Dribbling is an aspect of basketball, yet the perfect basketball player can dribble perfectly and do everything else in basketball perfectly. If that analogy makes sense to you. 😑

Originally posted by leonidas
it's actually a good analogy. your saying then that the control of the single aspect of time would be equal. meh, i can see that logically, but still don't accept it because your take on the gems, like goob's, is counter-intuitive.

i preface by saying you may both be correct in your assumptions. by your reasoning however, i could likewise say that using all the other gems in concert, minus the reality gem, could do everything the reality gem could do, thus the others together make the reality gem redundant. 😬

to speculate that one gem or a group of them could make the others redundant however is going against the nature of the gems as they have been described. time=absolute master of time, etc. there is no 'logical' stance so to speak behind my argument other than the intended design of the gems themselves. it would seem to me that 'reality' was broken up differently than the way you are both portraying it when the IB created the gems. it's possible reality is something OTHER than time and space, BECAUSE time and space and reality are all seperate gems.

if the TG gives absolute mastery over time, how can the RG supercede the TG's control? but breaking down reality as YOU have, it's hard to see the TG superceding the RG's control of time as well. i'll not accept the argument that one gem makes the other redundant however as that goes against the intended design of the gems and counter-intuitive arguments never hold much weight for me. 😬

I think you're misinterpreting the intention of my post, leo. I accpet the fact that all six of the Infinity gems put together make you a master over everything. That's fine, and I'm not going to argue that point. The purpose of the space and time gems being a part of the IG is something I have no problem with.

All I'm saying, is that THEORETICALLY, with the reality gem backed up by the power gem, it should allow complete mastery over reality. This includes time and space.

If Starlin meant for reality to be something other than the actual denotation of it being the time/space continuum, that's cool. However, if you truly think about it from a logical and theoretical standpoint, unlimited and absolute control over reality should include both time and space.

The only logical explanation for having the space and time gems along with the reality gem in my opinion, is what Master said earlier. To expand the scope of power from a universal level to a multiversal level.

Even when Thanos described the reality gem's functions, in the artwork, Ron Lim depicted Thanos' explanation of the time gem along with all of the other gems inside Thanos' head.

http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thanosquest243bi6.jpg

It's almost as if Starlin accepted the fact that time, along with everything else is a part of reality.

But, I digress. Either way, doesn't really matter. It takes ALL six gems to make the Infinity Guantlet. 🙂

Originally posted by darthgoober
I understand(and it's a good analogy), I was just pointing out that even though they have mastery of all reality, they don't have knowledge of all reality which is necessary to keep from screwing everything up(which is the reason the other gems are necessary IMO).

Right, but of course I was assuming we were talking about Thanos AFTER he stared into the Nexus of Reality to understand what the gems' true purposes are. 😄

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree....... From a "real world" point of view..

But,

If time and space can be manipulated by the reality gem, then why would there be a need for time and space gems? 😕

IMO,

They are separate entities, [from a comic standpoint]..

Originally posted by batdude123
Right, but of course I was assuming we were talking about Thanos AFTER he stared into the Nexus of Reality to understand what the gems' true purposes are. 😄

To use your analogy, the perfect dribbler would have all his senses fully functional, while the perfect player would lack a sense of touch or sight making his attempts dribbling either perfect, or completely unsuccessful due to the lack of appropriate info concerning the ball.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That doesn't really matter though. Even with that level of understanding you NEED the info gained by the other gems to safely use the Reality Gem.

To use your analogy, the perfect dribbler would have all his senses fully functional, while the perfect player would lack a sense of touch or sight making his attempts dribbling either perfect, or completely unsuccessful due to the lack of appropriate info concerning the ball.

May I ask where exactly are you getting that you need the other gems in order to use the reality gem?

For a description, Thanos merely states: "I dream and it will be."

He also demonstrated some of it's power to the Collector after he acquired it from him. He wasn't using any of the other gems' power along with it.

I would think it requires a great deal of knowledge about it in order to properly use it, which Thanos did have after staring into the Reality Nexus. But I'm not exactly sure you NEED the other gems in order to use the reality gem.

Originally posted by batdude123
May I ask where exactly are you getting that you need the other gems in order to use the reality gem?

For a description, Thanos merely states: "I dream and it will be."

He also demonstrated some of it's power to the Collector after he acquired it from him. He wasn't using any of the other gems' power along with it.

I would think it requires a great deal of knowledge about it in order to properly use it, which Thanos did have after staring into the Reality Nexus. But I'm not exactly sure you NEED the other gems in order to use the reality gem.

You just need them in order not to destroy everything.

Originally posted by batdude123
May I ask where exactly are you getting that you need the other gems in order to use the reality gem?

For a description, Thanos merely states: "I dream and it will be."

He also demonstrated some of it's power to the Collector after he acquired it from him. He wasn't using any of the other gems' power along with it.

I would think it requires a great deal of knowledge about it in order to properly use it, which Thanos did have after staring into the Reality Nexus. But I'm not exactly sure you NEED the other gems in order to use the reality gem.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not impossible to use it on its own, just dangerous(as Warlock and LT confirm)...

Ah, I was a bit unsure of what you meant earlier.

But again, that kind of misses the point of my previous post. If the time and space gems did not exist (for the sake of argument), the Infinity Guantlet would be capable of EXACTLY the same thing because... what is reality but time and space? 😉

Originally posted by batdude123
what is reality but time and space? 😉

Concept.

Originally posted by batdude123
Ah, I was a bit unsure of what you meant earlier.

But again, that kind of misses the point of my previous post. If the time and space gems did not exist, the Infinity Guantlet would be capable of EXACTLY the same thing because... what is reality but time and space? 😉

Originally posted by batdude123
I think you're misinterpreting the intention of my post, leo. I accpet the fact that all six of the Infinity gems put together make you a master over everything. That's fine, and I'm not going to argue that point. The purpose of the space and time gems being a part of the IG is something I have no problem with.

All I'm saying, is that THEORETICALLY, with the reality gem backed up by the power gem, it should allow complete mastery over reality. This includes time and space.

If Starlin meant for reality to be something other than the actual denotation of it being the time/space continuum, that's cool. However, if you truly think about it from a logical and theoretical standpoint, unlimited and absolute control over reality should include both time and space.

The only logical explanation for having the space and time gems along with the reality gem in my opinion, is what Master said earlier. To expand the scope of power from a universal level to a multiversal level.

Even when Thanos described the reality gem's functions, in the artwork, Ron Lim depicted Thanos' explanation of the time gem along with all of the other gems inside Thanos' head.

http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thanosquest243bi6.jpg

It's almost as if Starlin accepted the fact that time, along with everything else is a part of reality.

But, I digress. Either way, doesn't really matter. It takes ALL six gems to make the Infinity Guantlet. 🙂

i can almost buy the scope, but that then places boundaries on the RG's ability to affect 'all of reality'. that also doesn't make sense. 😬

i think you see where i'm going, though bats. i said that to view reality logically (real-world, as you are) WOULD imply that the RG would give control over both time and space, but that control would necessarily be absolute by definition of the gem's abilities. there would be no need (as you have said) for time or space gems.

however, the evidence contradicts your view -- ie -- there IS a time and space gem. and because there IS, the gems can NOT be redundant. that leaves the question then of what do they do? increase scope? doesn't make sense. add control? i could almost buy that. add something that the reality gem itself doesn't have? like what? i dunno. it's why i like the idea that reality has been broken up differently.

goob references the mar-vell resurrection. maybe thanos simply recreated him -- altered reality so that he wasn't dead. can't recall the contect exactly off-hand.

as far as the scan you showed goob, about things going out of control -- that is what was missing. not ability, or power -- control. could someone 100% proficient in the use of the gems, with the power gem backing them, do anything with the OTHER gems that the RG wielder could do? logically, the only answer is yes. i can't recall the full context of that scan, but it stands to reason someone perfectly adept at using time/space/mind/soul/power could do anything the RG wielder could do. what other aspects exist that would be OUTSIDE their domain?

maybe they DO add some sort of simple 'sensory input' as goob is saying. that seems to me to go against their pre-supposed natures though. the only thing that is truly clear is that all of them together are stronger than the individual pieces.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Concept.

Concept isn't tangible. Reality isn't made up of an idea.

Originally posted by batdude123
Concept isn't tangible. Reality isn't made up of an idea.

That doesn't mean it's not part of reality. With the RealityGem it should be possible to alter truth.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not impossible to use it on its own, just dangerous(as Warlock and LT confirm)...

these scans go back to my butter knife analogy -- the reality gem is like a broad edged weapon -- the time and space gems are scapels that add control. i've no problem with that idea.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That doesn't mean it's not part of reality. With the RealityGem it should be possible to alter truth.

Basically correct. I assumed you were trying to tell me reality was MADE UP of a concept.

Originally posted by batdude123
Concept isn't tangible. Reality isn't made up of an idea.

we don't know WHAT it's made of. 🙂 and you keep distinguishing between them. at their base levels they are spacetime, not space AND time. 😉

what is spacetime made of? who knows. strings of vibrating energy? wave patterns? i dunno, but i'm guessing the infinity being knew. 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
these scans go back to my butter knife analogy -- the reality gem is like a broad edged weapon -- the time and space gems are scapels that add control. i've no problem with that idea.

👆

Originally posted by batdude123
Basically correct. I assumed you were trying to tell me reality was MADE UP of a concept.

reality is a VERY subjective beast -- like time itself is, and by association, space. it could be argued that it IS a concept.

Originally posted by leonidas
we don't know WHAT it's made of. 🙂 and you keep distinguishing between them. at their base levels they are spacetime, not space AND time. 😉

what is spacetime made of? who knows. strings of vibrating energy? wave patterns? i dunno, but i'm guessing the infinity being knew. 😄