Originally posted by Bentley
Hawkeye has fought enough guns to prove his value, heck, he has intercepted sniper bullets in mid flight with his arrows.
does he have any other feats that would lead us to believe this possible for him?
so, for instance, tagging an small object in mid flight that is moving faster than the speed of sound?
EDIT: like, this insinuates that Hawkeye can somehow either see an object going to fast for humans to see or hear an object moving so fast it arrives at its target before the sound of the shot. Or, he has some type of precognitive/psychic sense that allows him to line up a sniper shot before it is taken. Without giving Hawkeye some huge boost in powers, which in any other situation that doesn't involve bullets he doesn't have, the only way this could happen is if a sniper shot at his arrow as he had it pulled back in the bow.
Like, its some weird "suspension of disbelief" going on between these two characters. We are supposed to believe that a comic representation of an archer is in fact far better than any human could ever hope to be, yet we are to believe that someone with a gun is in fact far worse in comics than they are in real life. A soldier with even modest training should be able to kill someone like Hawkeye with modest difficulty, unless Clint uses the environment exceptionally well. Someone like Punisher, whose "superpower" is essentially being a better soldier than humanly possible, should have no difficulty whatsoever
/rant
I think HE actually intercepted the bullet by aiming at the gun socket, but it's hard to tell from the panels. You're seriously underestimating HE comic abilities if you think a guy with a gun can beat him, the guy has crazy weaponry... He shoots a magnetic arrow, Punisher no longer has weapons, what happens next?
Originally posted by Bentley
I think HE actually intercepted the bullet by aiming at the gun socket, but it's hard to tell from the panels.
so essentially the same as the guy shooting at his arrow....
Originally posted by Bentley
You're seriously underestimating HE comic abilities if you think a guy with a gun can beat him, the guy has crazy weaponry...
I can almost guarantee that the guns he was fighting against were jobbers 😛
Originally posted by Bentley
He shoots a magnetic arrow, Punisher no longer has weapons, what happens next?
the metal used in guns tends to be steel, which isn't itself magnetic, though has Iron components, meaning it might be magnetic to some degree, but I have never seen a gun put next to a magnet, so no idea... Bullets aren't. most long guns have polymer parts in the stock, handle and other pieces that aren't the mechanisms of shooting a bullet, and modern hand guns are often made entirely of a polymer substance. Using a magnet to get rid of Punisher's guns is iffy, at best, provided Clint even gets a clean shot at Punisher (he can't force him into cover, he can't shoot as fast as a gun [both rapid fire and in terms of how long it takes to aim a shot], HE has to pretty much take Punisher unawares and in a single shot [re: Punisher is way more of a damage soak than that])
So, my answer is, he shoots a magnetic arrow, giving away his position and gets shot 3 times in the chest from a single burst of whichever AR Punisher is brandishing at the time. Maybe the magnet pulls on the gun a bit... throwing off Punisher's aim slightly and forcing him to fire 2-3 bursts...
Originally posted by inimalist
so essentially the same as the guy shooting at his arrow....
Except HE's arrows can blow up at midflight and he can shoot several at once.
Originally posted by inimalist
the metal used in guns tends to be steel, which isn't itself magnetic, though has Iron components, meaning it might be magnetic to some degree, but I have never seen a gun put next to a magnet, so no idea... Bullets aren't. most long guns have polymer parts in the stock, handle and other pieces that aren't the mechanisms of shooting a bullet, and modern hand guns are often made entirely of a polymer substance. Using a magnet to get rid of Punisher's guns is iffy, at best, provided Clint even gets a clean shot at Punisher (he can't force him into cover, he can't shoot as fast as a gun [both rapid fire and in terms of how long it takes to aim a shot], HE [b]has to pretty much take Punisher unawares and in a single shot [re: Punisher is way more of a damage soak than that])So, my answer is, he shoots a magnetic arrow, giving away his position and gets shot 3 times in the chest from a single burst of whichever AR Punisher is brandishing at the time. Maybe the magnet pulls on the gun a bit... throwing off Punisher's aim slightly and forcing him to fire 2-3 bursts... [/B]
HE's magnetic arrows have already affected guns taking them off the user's very hands since their first appearance, the whole point of the arrow is that it disarms the opponent. Also, HE can angle shoot, making it harder for Frank to know where his position is at the moment he shoots.
Most of arguments in favor of Frank are reduced to "guns beat arrows", but that's hardly the final argument considering we are talking about a comic character like Clint. Clint has Bullseye-like accuracy and equipment that can give classic Iron Man a pause, it might not seem like it, but his equipment is better than Frank's.
Originally posted by 753He had leverage, he was in a crater. I know he did it with one hand, while those guys used both hands, but cb peak humans >>> real-life peak humans. This is a good feat but not a superhuman one.
that guy is using his whole body to do that. clint used an arm, he was under the car and had no leverage. pulling things that are aleady rolling is actually easy to do, even regular people can pull buses that way for some meters.
Originally posted by SamZEDthose guys used their legs, back and arms. HE used one arm from an akward position. he was lying down
He had leverage, he was in a crater. I know he did it with one hand, while those guys used both hands, but cb peak humans >>> real-life peak humans. This is a good feat but not a superhuman one.
Originally posted by 753Lets agree to disagree then. IMO its just a bit more impressive than what these guys did but nothing that'd make him that much stronger than Frank or any other trained comicbook human.
yes, I believe a guy who can casually raise 1,5 ton with one arm while laying down underneath it can raise 4 tons above his head and throw them.
Originally posted by Bentley
Except HE's arrows can blow up at midflight and he can shoot several at once.
I'd imagine even with a pistol, Frank could take more than Hawkeye could fire arrows in a span of longer than "instantly". Explosives would be nice, but would HE go for a kill shot against punisher? (obviously this goes both ways too, which helps HE a lot) Punisher is no stranger to explosives or being blowed up, and his damage soak is ridiculous. Short of blowing a hole out of him with an arrow, I don't suppose those arrows are going to be any more effective at taking down frank than have countless grenades, bombs, mines, etc.
Originally posted by Bentley
HE's magnetic arrows have already affected guns taking them off the user's very hands since their first appearance, the whole point of the arrow is that it disarms the opponent.
fair enough... just a cynical observation though... By forum rules, Frank is better off trying to rush HE with a plank of wood than he is trying to use what are some of the most efficient killing tools ever known to man, simply because even non-powered heroes can walk through automatic fire in a comic...
Originally posted by Bentley
Also, HE can angle shoot, making it harder for Frank to know where his position is at the moment he shoots.
true, but in a situation where both are under cover trying to locate the other, I'm still giving Frank the advantage in spotting HE's position if they are firing. Frank really only has to worry about muzzle flash and noise, whereas HE has to pull back and arrow and maneuver the bow. Frank's soldier experience is also much more apt for this type of thing, as locating the source of gunfire in the middle of a jungle might be harder than finding arrowfire in a city (though, maybe not)
Originally posted by Bentley
Most of arguments in favor of Frank are reduced to "guns beat arrows", but that's hardly the final argument considering we are talking about a comic character like Clint. Clint has Bullseye-like accuracy and equipment that can give classic Iron Man a pause, it might not seem like it, but his equipment is better than Frank's.
well, ok, fine. If HE has magic "I disarm you arrows", can fire at 90 degree angles, etc, sure, his equipment is better in terms of "comics make his equipment better". I don't think it comes down to just "guns beak arrows" though.
Scenario 1: Savage land, no prep. The environment slants this for Punisher anyways, his stealth probably gives him a significant number of Ws even if he is just using the knife, not to mention traps and such. Punisher is also an expert on human psychology as it relates to combat, and is shown to be able to predict his target's responses almost prophetically. In this scenario, I'd suspect Punisher lays traps in such a way that it draws HE into a highly vulnerable position, where he is a sitting duck for Frank.
Scenario 2: City, with prep. maybe I'm wrong, but HE doesn't strike me as a huge prep guy, whereas Punisher uses this type of prep almost every time he goes after a target. This is the same as the Savage land, only now punisher has prep time to set up how he is going to draw HE out and take him down. Civilians really only limit his use of explosives (HE too) and suppressive fire, and provide just as much cover to him as they do HE.
Scenario 3: tbh, we'd have to know more about the killbots...
Scenario 4: Probably HEs best chance, but still, rooftops are far more open than is a jungle or city, and that doesn't really benefit HE as much as it does punisher.
like, its not "guns beat arrows", Punisher's showings would put him at least at HE's level. Heaven forbid it becomes a h2h fight, as Punisher is not only highly skilled, but can take more damage than I'm thinking HE will give out. The issue where he is being chased by Sentry comes to mind off the top of my head. Disarmed or not, I'm fairly confident that is one of the biggest deciding factors here. HE probably (without killing frank) can't do enough damage to put him down before Frank does enough to put him down.
^ God Damn ini you know you're Punisher quite well.
Originally posted by 753
yes, I believe a guy who can casually raise 1,5 ton with one arm while laying down underneath it can raise 4 tons above his head and throw them.
It doesn't even matter if that was a class 4 feat, you don't get to become class 4 when every other feat you have suggests otherwise.
Originally posted by inimalist
I'd imagine even with a pistol, Frank could take more than Hawkeye could fire arrows in a span of longer than "instantly". Explosives would be nice, but would HE go for a kill shot against punisher? (obviously this goes both ways too, which helps HE a lot) Punisher is no stranger to explosives or being blowed up, and his damage soak is ridiculous. Short of blowing a hole out of him with an arrow, I don't suppose those arrows are going to be any more effective at taking down frank than have countless grenades, bombs, mines, etc.
I think there are two arguments which work pretty well in Frank's favor, one would be stealth and tracking. If Frank is in an scenario where he can avoid being spotted he has a good chance of winning, sure, HE will give him trouble but it helps Frank a lot. Regarding possible OHKO weapons I can think gas arrows from the top of my head.
Yep, several of the scenarios actually give Frank a very good chance, the jungle one is completely in his favor and he should get the majority. The prep discussion is hard to say, HE has resources from the Avengers, which can bring a Quinjet at the very least and he's an accomplished pilot. I agree Frank is an excellent prepper.
The rooftop battle is the one that it's great for HE, he's acrobatic, he has excellent mobility, can use grappling hooks and is excellent with ranged weapons. Clint should sweep that one in my opinion.
In a ranged combat however, I heavily favor Clint, he just needs a glimpse and he can take Frank pretty much at any distance; it all comes down to stealth imo.
Originally posted by Bentley
Except HE's arrows can blow up at midflight and he can shoot several at once.HE's magnetic arrows have already affected guns taking them off the user's very hands since their first appearance, the whole point of the arrow is that it disarms the opponent. Also, HE can angle shoot, making it harder for Frank to know where his position is at the moment he shoots.
Most of arguments in favor of Frank are reduced to "guns beat arrows", but that's hardly the final argument considering we are talking about a comic character like Clint. Clint has Bullseye-like accuracy and equipment that can give classic Iron Man a pause, it might not seem like it, but his equipment is better than Frank's.
I'm tnot sure he will be fast enough to do that to a guy that can easily shoot people with superhuman speed. I think there are ways of getting around eg use a grenade, also it can depend on how Punisher is aiming eg shots crouched down.
Originally posted by Bentley
In a ranged combat however, I heavily favor Clint, he just needs a glimpse and he can take Frank pretty much at any distance; it all comes down to stealth imo.
but if we go by Frank's showings with guns, as opposed to bulletdodging feats, HE is just as much a sitting duck, and can't soak bullets the way Frank can arrows
Originally posted by inimalist
but if we go by Frank's showings with guns, as opposed to bulletdodging feats, HE is just as much a sitting duck, and can't soak bullets the way Frank can arrows
Punisher has some really good dodging feats. Hes dodged gunfire from Bullseye. I have to say I was quite suprised myself. If we look at some of his recent showings he could probably evade some of Hawkeyes arrows.
Originally posted by Deadline
I'm tnot sure he will be fast enough to do that to a guy that can easily shoot people with superhuman speed. I think there are ways of getting around eg use a grenade, also it can depend on how Punisher is aiming eg shots crouched down.
Depending on the distance, I don't see speed being much of a factor, HE is quite fast himself.
Originally posted by inimalist
but if we go by Frank's showings with guns, as opposed to bulletdodging feats, HE is just as much a sitting duck, and can't soak bullets the way Frank can arrows
HE's aim and ranged weapons are much more troublesome to Frank's damage soak than Punisher bullets would be for HE. I mean, a sequence of sonic/gas/electric arrows would give even Wolerine troubles