Hawkeye vs Punisher

Originally posted by inimalist
eh, if I'm arguing against bulletdodging one way, I have to go both ways. I have no problem saying HE is faster and more agile, but neither of these characters should be fast enough to actually dodge the others well aimed projectiles.

You know what Hawkeye is more agile but I don't think you can prove hes faster. There is more proof that Punisher can dodge Hawkeyes arrows than there is proof that Hawkeye can dodge Punishers bullets. If Pun pulls his gun Hawkeye is probably dead unless he uses those mag arrows...which I've never seen him use before.

Originally posted by Bentley

The rooftop battle is the one that it's great for HE, he's acrobatic, he has excellent mobility, can use grappling hooks and is excellent with ranged weapons. Clint should sweep that one in my opinion.

In a ranged combat however, I heavily favor Clint, he just needs a glimpse and he can take Frank pretty much at any distance; it all comes down to stealth imo.

Pun is fast enough to dodge some of those attacks and has hit people faster than Hawkeye with his fists and guns.

Originally posted by Deadline
You know what Hawkeye is more agile but I don't think you can prove hes faster. There is more proof that Punisher can dodge Hawkeyes arrows than there is proof that Hawkeye can dodge Punishers bullets. If Pun pulls his gun Hawkeye is probably dead unless he uses those mag arrows...which I've never seen him use before.

Pun is fast enough to dodge some of those attacks and has hit people faster than Hawkeye with his fists and guns.

You've read more Punisher than HE to be fair 😄

HE has dealt with people faster than Punisher, those arguments are hardly important considering I see distance being the main factor. If I cited the arrows I did, it's because they have an area of effect much greater than bullets, they are waaaay much harder to dodge.

Originally posted by Bentley
Depending on the distance, I don't see speed being much of a factor, HE is quite fast himself.

Hes not faster than Spiderman, Sabretooth, Wolverine or Captain America, sorry HE is toast. Hell Punisher has beaten Bushwacker to the draw hes basically an master gun shooter.

Master gun shooter > Master arrow shooter

Originally posted by Bentley
HE's aim and ranged weapons are much more troublesome to Frank's damage soak than Punisher bullets would be for HE. I mean, a sequence of sonic/gas/electric arrows would give even Wolerine troubles

I suppose we disagree on this...

a bullet in the arm (god, this doesn't hold up in movies, why would I think it would in comics) should make shooting arrows next to impossible. The chest is considered a kill zone, as is the head. Most gut shots are fatal and incredibly incapacitating. A bullet in the leg reduces HE's mobility to essentially crawling. Or, I suppose, it should.

I suppose I'm expecting too realistic of an outcome, rather than what scans would suggest. In Punisher comics, this tends to be how things work, imho, unless the character is a known "damage soak" (though, iirc, getting shot does normally mess punisher up in a modestly realistic way... I might be thinking too much of MAX)

Originally posted by Deadline
Master gun shooter > Master arrow shooter

Make it unerring master grenade launcher.

top-achtung.blogspot.com

Originally posted by inimalist
I suppose we disagree on this...

a bullet in the arm (god, this doesn't hold up in movies, why would I think it would in comics) should make shooting arrows next to impossible. The chest is considered a kill zone, as is the head. Most gut shots are fatal and incredibly incapacitating. A bullet in the leg reduces HE's mobility to essentially crawling. Or, I suppose, it should.

I suppose I'm expecting too realistic of an outcome, rather than what scans would suggest. In Punisher comics, this tends to be how things work, imho, unless the character is a known "damage soak" (though, iirc, getting shot does normally mess punisher up in a modestly realistic way... I might be thinking too much of MAX)

I agree with you about the real life point, I'm discussing mostly with comics in mind in which Clint does quite well against bullets.

Originally posted by Bentley
You've read more Punisher than HE to be fair 😄

You sure about that? I was have read several years worth of West Coast Avengers , I've read Solo Avengers which featured Hawkeye. Not to mention some really old Avengers issues, Secret Wars etc etc.

Thats a shitload of Hawkeye. I only go on about Punisher because hes underated, so people assume that I've only read Punisher.

Originally posted by Bentley

HE has dealt with people faster than Punisher, those arguments are hardly important considering I see distance being the main factor. If I cited the arrows I did, it's because they have an area of effect much greater than bullets, they are waaaay much harder to dodge.

Like who? Taskmaster used HEs skill but couldn't hit Spiderman without tactics. Also an agile tactician can be harder to hit then an opponent who is faster with raw speed.

Originally posted by Deadline
You know what Hawkeye is more agile but I don't think you can prove hes faster. There is more proof that Punisher can dodge Hawkeyes arrows than there is proof that Hawkeye can dodge Punishers bullets. If Pun pulls his gun Hawkeye is probably dead unless he uses those mag arrows...which I've never seen him use before.

I tend to agree with your last point, as Punisher can accurately fire 2 M16s from the hip, I see him as being much quicker to the punch and accurate enough to tag HE at any reasonable distance, but I can't agree with the first, if nothing more than on principle.

Both Punisher and HE are shown as beyond master of what they do, to the point that they essentially have the superpower of "archer" or "soldier". Their mastery of their weapons and constant showings of uncanny accuracy supersedes what I would call moot feats. All heroes dodge bullets and lasers, so much so that I would argue the feats should not be usable to represent speed. There is nothing about either HE or Punisher's powerset or feats, outside of bulletdodging, that suggests either should be fast enough to dodge the other's weapon.

You mention Punisher tagging spiderman, which is, imho, a very realistic portrayal. However, spidersense aside, it is not something that would be unreasonable to expect of someone who is equally a master of archery.

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree with you about the real life point, I'm discussing mostly with comics in mind in which Clint does quite well against bullets.

maybe its that, when HE fights someone with a gun, it is treated much differently than when punisher uses one.

"bulletdodging" just seems to be something heroes do, Punisher included, whereas Punisher rarely jobs like that

Originally posted by Deadline
You sure about that? I was have read several years worth of West Coast Avengers , I've read Solo Avengers which featured Hawkeye. Not to mention some really old Avengers issues, Secret Wars etc etc.

Thats a shitload of Hawkeye. I only go on about Punisher because hes underated, so people assume that I've only read Punisher.

Like who? Taskmaster used HEs skill but couldn't hit Spiderman without tactics.

Well, there is Whizzer, but Whizzer does suck ermm

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree with you about the real life point, I'm discussing mostly with comics in mind in which Clint does quite well against bullets.

I'm sure, and I'm totally willing to admit my bias here

maybe I should phrase it as, I would prefer to read comics where guns and such aren't treated with such a lack of seriousness

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm sure, and I'm totally willing to admit my bias here

maybe I should phrase it as, I would prefer to read comics where guns and such aren't treated with such a lack of seriousness

I agree, although it would certainly make heroes like HE quite ridiculous 😄

@Deadline: I agree that people underestimate Frank, but you're not going to tell me there is a hundred guys backing up Clint around here, I'm doing more or less the same thing you are doing.

Originally posted by Bentley
I agree, although it would certainly make heroes like HE quite ridiculous 😄

🙂

they have their place, and I'm not above a good mindless Avengers or TB story, so I'll stop talking out of both sides of my mouth

Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!

Originally posted by the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!

Oh, there you go, Daken and Venom are fast too, right?

Venom was asleep.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Venom was asleep.

I didn't remember. Such a lazy Venom!

Originally posted by the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!

/facepalm

Originally posted by the ninjak
Daken killed Punisher!

Clint made Daken his *****!

Originally posted by juggernaut74
This is true. What issue did Hawkeye take Daken down? I need to see that again if anybody has scans.

He did it in The List : Avengers #1
He easily puts an arrow through his head. Then proceeds to take him out.