Thanos with heart of universe vs darkseid with ALE

Originally posted by Mr Master

This is why you won't find even a hint of the #4321

in THOTI Bio or the Celestial Order Bio, at Marvunapp.

Or any other Handbook or Bio anywhere.

i suppose that depends on how you look at it. you mentioned akhen's bio, but here it is:

that's from akhen's official bio in the OHOTMU. there is no 'bio' for the heart itself, but it says very clearly that the heart and the order existed in universe 4321. the fact that the handbook says the heart was in 4321 tells me the story is already out of canon. the same bio (akhen's) goes on to says this about the reference by thanos in his own series:

"At least some of Earth 4321's events MAY have ocurred" in 616 . . .

the problem with this is -- if the story was initially set in 4321, where exactly did it suddenly . . . merge, with 616? it's impossible to say. you said something about doom visiting the past that i didn't quite get, but either way, that would have been the 4321 version of doom, visiting the 4321's past. to say anything else is complete speculation. 😬

to me it's clear the heart existed in 4321. akhen existed in 4321. i don't see how (leaving the editor-speak aside) the thing can be canon when the story (like ALL of the the other THE END series'😉 was set in an alternate universe.

about the editors -- there are a couple seperate issues in that regard:

(a) you simply don't believe it was them speaking (which makes no sense to me given marvel's oft-exhibited connection with cbr/newsrama)

(b) you believe both brevoort and schmidt DID denounce THE END as non-canon, but simply don't accept their word for it. (which makes even less sense to me as they are the ones who DETERMINE what is and isn't continuity for marvel) if (b) is the case, it would follow that if brevoort came over to your house and personally told you the story was non-can, you STILL wouldn't accept it as fact. which seems . . . odd, to me.

truthfully, i have no idea why this is hard for anyone to swallow. both of them in essence said the exact same thing that akhen's bio says. and marvel is not a democracy -- they don't NEED to do a story to prove or verify their decisions. if they decided to simply announce the last 10 issues of spiderman are to be removed from continuity, they would be removed, simple as. they might make a mess of continuity doing it, but the power is theirs.

to paraphrase a bit more from the brevoort discussion -- jim starlin doesn't determine continuity -- brevoort does.

Originally posted by leonidas
i suppose that depends on how you look at it. you mentioned akhen's bio, but here it is:

that's from akhen's official bio in the OHOTMU. there is no 'bio' for the heart itself, but it says very clearly that the heart and the order existed in universe 4321. the fact that the handbook says the heart was in 4321 tells me the story is already out of canon. the same bio (akhen's) goes on to says this about the reference by thanos in his own series:

This doesn't prove anything imo.

The Celestial Order crossed many Timelines, in order to find their representitives,

not just the 4321 Reality.

I'll prove it conclusively in a bit, with On Panel evidence.

Originally posted by leonidas

"At least some of Earth 4321's events [b]MAY have ocurred" in 616 . . .

the problem with this is -- if the story was initially set in 4321, where exactly did it suddenly . . . merge, with 616? [/B]

That's what has some confused,

the 4321 Reality is just where Akhenaten is from, nothing more.

The End arc never diverged, it was always initiated in 616.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's impossible to say. you said something about doom visiting the past that i didn't quite get, but either way, that would have been the 4321 version of doom, visiting the 4321's past. to say anything else is complete speculation.

That's impossible.

If one visits the Past, they visit a separate Universe/Reality, the Original Reality does not exist anymore because it's situated in the Future of said Reality,

if one visits the Future, the same effect is applied.

Originally posted by leonidas
to me it's clear the heart existed in 4321. akhen existed in 4321.

Doesn't matter.

Like I said, the Celestial Order, who travelled with THOTI aboard their ship entered many different Timelines to find the worthy candidates for their representitive assembly.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't see how (leaving the editor-speak aside) the thing can be canon when the story (like ALL of the the other THE END series'😉 was set in an alternate universe.

Overwhelming evidence points to the contrary.

Originally posted by leonidas
about the editors -- there are a couple seperate issues in that regard:

(a) you simply don't believe it was them speaking (which makes no sense to me given marvel's oft-exhibited connection with cbr/newsrama)

Even if I did,

I'm not going to start counting on cbr.

to define what happens on panel that corresponds with several bios.

Originally posted by leonidas
(b) you believe both brevoort and schmidt DID denounce THE END as non-canon, but simply don't accept their word for it. (which makes even less sense to me as they are the ones who DETERMINE what is and isn't continuity for marvel) if (b) is the case, it would follow that if brevoort came over to your house and personally told you the story was non-can, you STILL wouldn't accept it as fact. which seems . . . odd, to me.

It's a conflict of interest.

Supposedly brevoort and schmidt said it was non canon.

Then you got On Panel follow ups to the End that wouldn't make sense if the END wasn't canon.

Marvunapp, doesn't restrict THOTI or the Celestial Order to 4321.

Bios of the LT-Eternity-Infinity and the Abstracts never once mention 4321, in fact, Thanos is credited with over coming the SAME Eternity Genis and Entropy killed, or is that non canon as well?

And Marvel.com itself, makes no mention of THOTI or the Celestail Order or the END arc being solely existing in this 4321 Reality, in fact, there's no mention of it.

Oh yes, and again, the End is reference, plus Eternity's bio mentions the events of the End, and how the SAME Eternity Genis killed is the one Thanos absorbed.

Is is a COINCIDENCE that the ONLY Bio that mentions the 4321 Reality is Akhenaten's?

no2

Of course not, that's where he and he alone is from.

Originally posted by leonidas
truthfully, i have no idea why this is hard for anyone to swallow. both of them in essence said the exact same thing that akhen's bio says. and marvel is not a democracy -- they don't NEED to do a story to prove or verify their decisions. if they decided to simply announce the last 10 issues of spiderman are to be removed from continuity, they would be removed, simple as. they might make a mess of continuity doing it, but the power is theirs.

to paraphrase a bit more from the brevoort discussion -- jim starlin doesn't determine continuity -- brevoort does.

As you wish. 🙂

I said I had On Panel proof didn't I?

Here it is.

Here Doom sees himself (from another Timeline/Universe) caught and trapped by Akhenaten:

It's another Timeline/Universe, cause the same Doom can't occupy two separate Realities.

"And I, apparently captured at some point in my own not-so-distant Future"

"Akhenaten's one fear and weakness ... His Past ...

(or Another Timeline/Universe) the Time before he gained the power"

Doom uses his Time Machine to reach the Timeline Aknehaten is from (4321)

"I depart the Present (616) and return to when Aknehaten was but a mere Mortal"

(in reality 4321 which is a Past Timeline of the 616 Reality)

Just like Reality 15104 from New X-Men #150-154 is a possible Future Timeline of the 616 Universe, that's the "universe" Jean had in her hands (Reality 15104) although it derived from 616.

continues in the next post....

Here Akhenaten guards his mortal form in Reality 4321 (a Past Timeline of 616)

"Did you believe I would leave my Past unguarded"

"And so History continued unchanged, under the watchful eye of it's dark guardian"

Here Akhenaten himself states that the Celestial Order ventured into different Realities/Timelines to find him and others:

"Through TIme and Space they searched for their chosen few"

If the Celestial Order was crossing Time & Space,

then they were visiting Timelines, which are Realities/Universes of their own.

continues in the next post....

Here Vishnu states that Aknehaten originated from the PAST of 616:

"Lord Horus arrives late to a meet concerning dire peril concerning Ancient Egypt"

"Ancient Egypt" is still in existence in some Timeline,

can anyone say the 4321 Timeline.

To further prove that the Past or Future of the 616 Reality are separate Universes,

Here we have Zeus summoning the rest of the Pantheons from other Timelines,

Like Horus:

"Tis also THIER Universe (like 4321) that be imperiled"

And Thanos says,

"meanwhile Doctor Doom was also having HIS Universe (616) badly shaken"

Originally posted by Mr Master
To further prove that the Past or Future of the 616 Reality are separate Universes,

Here we have Zeus summoning the rest of the Pantheons from other Timelines,

Like Horus:

"Tis also THIER Universe (like 4321) that be imperiled"

And Thanos says,

"meanwhile Doctor Doom was also having HIS Universe (616) badly shaken"

This also proves that the End dealt with more than just one Universe.

I can't believe I missed this for so long. 😎

So if the editors say that the end is out of continuity then that is it. Aren't they the one above all?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So if the editors say that the end is out of continuity then that is it. Aren't they the one above all?

When I read that at Marvel.com, or an Official Marvel source for Info,

I'll buy it.

Until then, forgetu

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So if the editors say that the end is out of continuity then that is it. Aren't they the one above all?

Originally posted by Mr Master
When I read that at Marvel.com, or an Official Marvel source for Info,

I'll buy it.

Until then, forgetu

Originally posted by King Kandy
I'd definatly call the Marvel Editors an official marvel source...

An "Editor" loungin around in a forum answering questions is not my idea of an Official source.

An Editor making a statement at Marvel.com or an officially sponsored site, like Marvunapp is.

Link me to a statement made by Marvel.com,

saying the End isn't canon and I'll concede.

Otherise, I'll stick with the overwhelming evidence that screams,

the End is Canon!!!

Bran flooded this thread with the reasons concerning continuity why the End HAS to be Canon.

I flooded this thread with On Panel and Bio references to the End, the Eternity in the End being the SAME one Genis killed.

I also now found how the End DID in fact deal with more than one Universe,

Originally posted by Mr Master

"Tis also THIER Universe (like 4321) that be imperiled"

And Thanos says,

"meanwhile Doctor Doom was also having HIS Universe (616) badly shaken"

like I always knew it did.

So your saying if an editor came to your house and said "The End isn't canon", you'd argue with him? That seems... Off.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So your saying if an editor came to your house and said "The End isn't canon", you'd argue with him? That seems... Off.

That's a silly speculative scenerio.

A screen name at cbr. hardly equates to an Editor coming to my crib.

So either get the info from Marvel.com, or we'll leave it at that.

IMO, the End is Canon based on a plethora of factual reasons.

You or anyone disagrees, that's cool.

Originally posted by King Kandy
So your saying if an editor came to your house and said "The End isn't canon", you'd argue with him? That seems... Off.

Originally posted by quanchi112
for marvel to reference it in thanos series makes it canon. people argue with it by saying this marvel editor says this and this one says that. referencing it in a comic makes it official. nuff said.

Not that I believe the end is non-canon, I'm just trying to poke holes in MM's reasoning. It's just what I do.

Originally posted by King Kandy
One word: Retcon.

Not that I believe the end is non-canon, I'm just trying to poke holes in MM's reasoning. It's just what I do.

Originally posted by Mr Master
IMO, the End is Canon based on a plethora of factual reasons.

You or anyone disagrees, that's cool.

👆

but, clear factual evidence is still lacking -- across universes doesn't mean 616 was ONE of those universes. there is no mention of 616 OR 4321 in the series so there is no way for you to prove in any way aside from speculation that those are the universes in question.

akhen's bio says the series started in 4321 and the heart was there. did it cross timelines? sure, i guess. but no clear evidence says it was ever in 616, only that it's powers crossed some realities. there are . . . a lot of realities out there.

like i said -- marvel's not a democracy, nor do they need to make a bold announcement about something as trivial as this subject would be to them. 😬

as for eternity's bio -- we both know that is a tricky one. there is no mention of a multi-eternity bio either, or no mention of him in eternity's bio. does that mean there is no such entity?

Originally posted by Mr Master
An "Editor" loungin around in a forum answering questions is not my idea of an Official source.

An Editor making a statement at Marvel.com or an officially sponsored site, like Marvunapp is.

Link me to a statement made by Marvel.com,

saying the End isn't canon and I'll concede.

Otherise, I'll stick with the overwhelming evidence that screams,

the End is Canon!!!

Bran flooded this thread with the reasons concerning continuity why the End HAS to be Canon.

I flooded this thread with On Panel and Bio references to the End, the Eternity in the End being the SAME one Genis killed.

I also now found how the End DID in fact deal with more than one Universe,

like I always knew it did.

Something being badly shaken isn't exactlywhat you implied. YOu said that Thanos absorbed the omniverse. Not even remotely what you said about multiple universes.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Something being badly shaken isn't exactlywhat you implied. YOu said that Thanos absorbed the omniverse. Not even remotely what you said about multiple universes.

Originally posted by King Kandy
He never said Thanos absorbed the Omniverse, he said he absorbed the Multiverse.

Even the multiverse is WRONG. The story said universe. And him saying something being shaken somehow turns into thanos absorbing the multiverse is stretching things a wee bit.