Originally posted by jasofisc
you can not be this stupid no way. your just messing with him right. you can not be that big of a fanboy.wolverine in the movie was human level strength and his skin was just like human skin. phonix disinigrated everyone else at once but only disengrated a tiny bit of wolverine at a time so he wouldn't get really hurt. she was holding back like nothing else.
phoenix disingrated the black bird with as much strain as she did just normal people (which is none) what she was doing was taking them apart a a subatomic level. surfer would be vanrable to this. However surfer can do the same thing. I personaly thing surfer would get her before she could get him. oh also phoenix does have the option of puting up a tk sheild (which i do not think would be breached by surfers energy beam easly) however surfer showed that he can get beyound sheilds.
You seem to forget that the Surfer can heal himself as well, plus Surfer is not made of flesh and bone, he is made of a silvery cosmic material that is highly durable and nearly indestructable. What makes you think Jean can disintegrate a material she has never encountered before?
Here is an easy way the Surfer can take out Jean. He becomes intangible and flys his board through her body, see easy victory.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
What makes you think Jean can disintegrate a material she has never encountered before?
She manipulates matter sub-atomically, what the substance is or whether she knows what is before she uses tk on it is irrelevant, it's matter, she has mind over matter she can manipulate it.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
You seem to forget that the Surfer can heal himself as well, plus Surfer is not made of flesh and bone, he is made of a silvery cosmic material that is highly durable and nearly indestructable. What makes you think Jean can disintegrate a material she has never encountered before?
Here is an easy way the Surfer can take out Jean. He becomes intangible and flys his board through her body, see easy victory.
I already mentioned that way for a surfer victory just not using the board.
it wasn't any harder for her to disessemble the black bird then it was to disessemble people. the durriblity doesn't matter (by the way we have no way of know what his durribilty was but I do agree with you that it must have up there) she is taking stuff apart at a subatomic level surfer is still made up of matter (surfer does the same thing by the way). now i've already said that surfer wins and it's because he know how to use that power better.
Surfer....
He matter manipulated an entire lake by just flying over it.
He matter manipulated the desert into a snow storm just by flying over it.
He matter manipulated doom.
He absorbed a missile
He flew over the Atlantic in all of 3 seconds (when reed was tracking him)
he created coliseum size holes in the earth that look so deep they went straight to the center of the earth.
He made invisible womens forcefield a joke.
Not to mention......
He freaking destroyed a being that looked to be 5 times larger then the earth. Seriously, and survived (presumably).....
Surfer was brought down by tech from doom and reed (not a bad defeat I mean its doom and read)
Phoenix got stabbed......
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Surfer....He matter manipulated an entire lake by just flying over it.
He matter manipulated the desert into a snow storm just by flying over it.
He matter manipulated doom.
He absorbed a missile
He flew over the Atlantic in all of 3 seconds (when reed was tracking him)
he created coliseum size holes in the earth that look so deep they went straight to the center of the earth.
He made invisible womens forcefield a joke.
Not to mention......
He freaking destroyed a being that looked to be 5 times larger then the earth. Seriously, and survived (presumably).....
Surfer was brought down by tech from doom and reed (not a bad defeat I mean its doom and read)
Phoenix got stabbed......
Whatever. You know if Wolverine were in the Fantastic Four movie, he would have cut Galactus in half.
Totally can't believe how people think phoenix was TRYING to kill wolverine and couldn't. We all know even if she couldn't disintegrate him she could levitate him and just smash him into the ground or anything. Why didn't she? She's not an idiot. Can anyone give any reason why she woudln't do this except for the fact that she was holding back?
Apart from that we've seen cuts take like at least 1/2 a second to heal for movie wolverine. We see him cut, they close up to his face and watch him heal. Phoenix was disintegrating entire people and larger things in that time without even focusing on them. She'd at least disintegrate an arm in the time it takes wolv to heal a cut.
Wolv shoudln't be able to heal his adamantium either so even if wolv was resisting disintegration by healing jean could just destroy his skeleton.
Phoenix wasn't even trying and Jean was fighting for control (she came back for a second at the end telling wolv to save her [most probably kill her]). Only reason wolverine was able to get to her. Can't believe how people can think otherwise.
Ok, on to the actual discussion I would agree with it coming down to whoever can get a hit off first (which i think surfer would). It's possible his cosmic energy would bind his atomic and subatomic particles better so jean couldn't take him apart as easily but we can't really say. We're not sure about the nature of his intangibility either so we're not sure that would be protection from phoenix. Basically we dont know enough to be sure how effective either's attacks will be on each other (for phoenix whether she can put up a defense against his attacks since we know she's still got human durability). Seeing the extent of their powers, though, it'd be fair to say each can hurt each other. Surfer seems faster, has a POSSIBLE defense due to the power cosmic, and had better offensive feats than phoenix (which MAY indicate better defensive abilities). While these last 2 wouldn't even count as evidence in most threads, since we really dont know much about these characters, I'll include them as a 0.1% in favor of surfer in addition to his speed advantage.
Phoenix dusted things. So did Sailor Moon. That doesn't mean either had separated things at a subatomic level.
She never showed the ability to generate a forcefield as far as I'm aware so I've no idea where that came from.
She had human durability. She gets knocked the **** out as a side effect of Surfer just flying past her.
She had the ability to wrap her body in a telekinetic cocoon that protected her from the pressure of the lake crashing down on her sounds like a shield to me, she also used a shield in X2 to block Cykes optic blast, and the way she stopped the cure needles, they were all suspended in in a tk field, she didn't have to turn around which is reminiscent of her tk sensitivity(which is the ability that allows her to manipulate sub-atomic structures) this ability was also alluded to when she lifted every car in her neighborhood, she trapped everyone in the house to get at Xaiver and when she was apparently only killing humans and brotherhood mutants at the end without even facing the direction of the facility, the Xmen were there but not one of them was harmed, had they left in the deleted scene with magneto it would have shown her manipulating a metal cup breaking it down sub-atomically and transforming it into energy. Nothing in the FF movies suggest that Surfer is immune to mental attacks or detection so his speed ain't jack if she can sense his presence and intent. Xaiver said her powers were unlimited, Magneto said she could do anything, so it is safe to assume manipulating sub-atomic particles and such are not beyond her, if it was stated in the movie her power had no limits I don't understand why everybody here is trying to put limits on them.
Originally posted by LordKaos
She manipulates matter sub-atomically, what the substance is or whether she knows what is before she uses tk on it is irrelevant, it's matter, she has mind over matter she can manipulate it.
Still, the surfer is more masterful when it comes to manipulating matter. He could heal himself from any damage Jean would inflict on him.
Originally posted by LordKaos
She had the ability to wrap her body in a telekinetic cocoon that protected her from the pressure of the lake crashing down on her sounds like a shield to me, she also used a shield in X2 to block Cykes optic blast, and the way she stopped the cure needles, they were all suspended in in a tk field, she didn't have to turn around which is reminiscent of her tk sensitivity(which is the ability that allows her to manipulate sub-atomic structures) this ability was also alluded to when she lifted every car in her neighborhood, she trapped everyone in the house to get at Xaiver and when she was apparently only killing humans and brotherhood mutants at the end without even facing the direction of the facility, the Xmen were there but not one of them was harmed, had they left in the deleted scene with magneto it would have shown her manipulating a metal cup breaking it down sub-atomically and transforming it into energy. Nothing in the FF movies suggest that Surfer is immune to mental attacks or detection so his speed ain't jack if she can sense his presence and intent. Xaiver said her powers were unlimited, Magneto said she could do anything, so it is safe to assume manipulating sub-atomic particles and such are not beyond her, if it was stated in the movie her power had no limits I don't understand why everybody here is trying to put limits on them.
Originally posted by Estacado
Too bad that Surfer can become intagnible.
Being in an immaterial state is not a problem for psychic powers, he's still made of matter when he's intangible just not solid matter, if his intangibility was based on shifting part of himself dimensionally ok, but it's not, he's just messing with his molecules. She is also telepathic, strong enough to battle Xavier in the astral plane and not break a sweat, and block his probes when he was searching for her, they are both powerful and neither is gonna just get beat down especially if the deciding factor is intangibility.
Originally posted by What If...
Phoenix never really did anything impressive...She disintegrated people.
Whoopie. clappingand it took her about 5 minutes to do it, too.
IIRC, she didn't have control over matter at a subatomic level, and even if they stated she did - she never really showed it.
Sufer wins via speed and versatility.
when she was "disintegrating" people their was no ash or anything left. It was stated that she had control of matter on a subatomic level and when she "disintegrated" people what she was actualy does was taken them apart on a subatomic level (which is way their was noting not even ash left). Surfer can do the same thing and it sounds like the concences view is that surfer wins because of his expirence with this kind of power.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Still, the surfer is more masterful when it comes to manipulating matter. He could heal himself from any damage Jean would inflict on him.
I agree with you that he is more masterfull on that level however him healing himself is not going to work if jean is successful in taking him apart on a subatomic level (how ever it's still up for debate wheither or not surfer could block this I think he can)