AWE Plot Holes - A Place to Vent your Frustrations

sorry, Surreal...but the W/e plothole have not been explained and cleared-up....maybe for you but not for me/us....
no argueing though....

and yes, we could nick-pick this movie to death..I've always wondered how Jack was able to survive that fall on Cannibal Island..that's why at times I wonder if he is a God trapped in a human body, after all...so why would he need the fountain of youth????

and I mainly posted that "plot holes" from tasty pirate to make Kate laugh..no real insult to Will intended..and yes, no doubt about it, Will is destiny boy!!!! boy being the operative word...j/k...

HEHE! That made me smile Tigers...I know u didn't mean it as an insult. Just for the sake of the fun!

I know this isn't a plot hole but...isn't it freaky how they send Elizabeth off like they're mourning? Like something bad is gonna happen to her?

I mean yes! They're sad that they won't see her but not a 'pat on the back' or 'good job leading us in battle' or even 'have fun *wink wink*' or anything.

I half expected Pintel to throw himself on her and cry out 'don't do it popet! don't do it!'...his expression was like he was sending her off to her death.

But that's just me and my inability to appreciate the manner in which Elizabeth left or...left at all.

^^^^^I agree Tee...the biggest plot hole throughout the trilogy is that final goodbye sceen on the Pearl...it is as if they are sending her off to her death.....and why would you walk away from Captain Jack, shoot, seeing him standing there leaning against that rail, you just want to walk up, put your hands on his face and start kissing him all over.....

ummm....YEAH!!! That's why she leaned in to kiss him, she couldn't resist. WHY DID HE HAVE TO STOP HER?????????

I think it would have been nice if they added just one more line to the conversation.
Liz: It would never have worked between us.
Jack: Keep telling yourself that darling.
Liz leans in but Jack holds out his hands
Jack😮nce was quite enough
Liz: Keep telling yourself that.

If they'd just added that one last line I think I would feel A LOT better. That's all I asked for AWE...I'd given up on the JE ending. I just wanted some nice Sparrabeth moments

Lol, that look he gives her as she leaves tells me he hasn't quite gotten his fix. He'll be back.

^^^yeah, something's up....he just smiles at her....as if to say "go have your one day with Will, and then I'll find you and show you what one day times ten years could be like! " LOL

Ha ha, it does seem that way, lovethemtigers. I think that's what a lot of willabethers and norribethers forget sometimes. Sparrabeth didn't win, but we sure weren't wrong. We knew there was something going on and that there was a chance.

Well, more than once in the trilogy, Liz looked like she would end up with James, Will or Jack.

she should have ended up with james. on the hotness factor of kisses in film 3, (not counting film 2 obviously) James wins by a longshot. action-movie shrap for why James should be her choice.

I think the trilogy makes plenty of subtle hints that going with James would have been the smartest choice all along.

✅ ✅ Exactly! I mean she didn't love him as a husband so it wouldn't be right but it would definitely be the smart choice. I really love James! I vote their kiss the most beautiful in AWE...minus the fact that it's more of a goodbye kiss between parting friends and she doesn't feel the same. If we get past that part...it was so sweet!

There's a part in the first draft of COTBP where Elizabeth arrives at Isla De mUerte after the battle is over and cries out "thank god you're all right!" and there's a confused moment where the three men look at each other wondering which of them she means. Jack because...well she did kiss him on the cheek in that version and also there were some other moments. James because in all honesty she's engaged to him and says he's a 'fine man' and Will...do I really even have to explain this one?

So yeah in the first version it was implied (only a little) that she may end up with either of the three by the end of COTBP.

Yeah. I forgot about those first drafts. Interesting, weren't they? The deleted scenes give Liz and James much more bonding time and she seems to at least understand him, since we all know she's never loved him.

Then in DMC, something really interesting happens. Our 3 guys are suddenly fighting for a heart. LovelyOne was onto something here, but I'm pretty sure the commentary too mentions that you can look at this as 3 guys fighting for the heart of the only other one there not participating. They've had their moments with Liz and now they're all reunited and there's tension. They all come close, but we know at the end James is the one to walk away with it. So that could be a clue to the audience: hey, we all know you ship this way, but this guy here's not so bad.

In DMC when I first saw it, I actually thought he was over her. He didn't seem that lovestruck with her like he was in COTBP, but he was very bitter and zinged her with "latest fiance," implying she toyed with men. He also makes a face and looks away when Will and Liz kiss and is very easily talked into turning on Will by Jack (ah the power of negotiation). So by AWE, correct me if I'm wrong, but he is the only one to throw him arms around her and have one of those "thank goodness you're all right" moments with her that she had with Will in the second movie. And their kiss is out of this world.

So I wonder if the writers wanted us to know that even though there were no feelings there on Liz's part, that she would have been happiest in the long run with James?

i vote she would have. happier than playing single mom in a frumpy frock. James proved he could be both pirate and good man, and was never ashamed of admitting his mistakes. He could have provided her the stability and comfort she needed after losing her father (the main male influence in her life) whilst still providing her with adventure (hot kisses during dramatic escapes, anyone?)

Ultimately, though I shipped Sparrabeth (and I sort of abandoned that ship after AWE, because Elizabeth's character changed, in my opinion, for the worst and she no longer fit Jack) I think James got shafted losing out to Will. If you are trying to make one guy the obvious choice for the girl, why on earth would you make him compete with johnny depp AND jack davenport????

Originally posted by katelovespirate
[BIf you are trying to make one guy the obvious choice for the girl, why on earth would you make him compete with johnny depp AND jack davenport???? [/B]

Amen to that kate....I agree wholeheartedly.....

I mean, I'm still a Sparrabether...because I still think Elizabeth and Jack had a connection that no one else did....sure Will and Liz had a connection, but it, to me, was still not as powerful and capturing as Jack and LIz.....because with Jack and Liz it was agreeing and disagreeing, challenging, understanding..etc.....

Anyways, would I ship Elizabeth and James....yep, anything..anything but Liz and Will.....I just don't get it.....if they wanted her to be with Will..then they should have searched harder for someone to play Will because I just don't think Orlando was right for the part...and I guess that's just me.....

Go ahead and bash me Willabethers.....i've no worries...

Not bashing, but disagreeing gently. Will was perfectly played by Orlando. Will as a character is quite interesting, considering how much he changes, grows, and the situations he's had to face.

I like Will, I empathize with him in a way I haven't been able to connect to the other characters.

The biggest plot hole to me, of course, is not a plot hole, but the idea that many of you formed that after being killed, Jack would possibly want Elizabeth in any capacity, and why in the world you would think that it would be healthy for him to WANT to be with Elizabeth.

You would never try to convince a woman to go back to an abusive boyfriend, right? Even if he hit her because he secretly really loved her but he felt he had to punish her because she was too tempting for him to deal with, or too tempting for other men to be around, you would be horrified of a woman going back to that man.

So why is it different for Jack and Elizabeth? Elizabeth abused Jack, killed him, and you want her to be with him? That's just weird to me.

Of course, my own life experiences have probably played a role in why I despise Sparrabeth so much, so don't mind me. I'm not trying to be insulting, but I just want to know why killing someone is a GOOD thing.

Any takers on my question? 😄

Ah, who managed to take the ponderings of a norribeth ending, turn it into sparrabeth, and then start another shipping war? This is about plotholes, people. Get on the willabeth thread if you hate sparrabeth and get on the sparrabeth one if you hate willabeth.

Surreal, I understand your point about it being an abusive relationship and I do understand your point of view, I really do. Now, keeping that in mind, if all the characters broke off contact with the characters that managed to screw them over at some point, there wouldn't be any dialogue at all. Tia and Davy's relationship is full of psychological abuse, yet they were put back together. Hell, Barbossa mutinied against Jack and left him on an island to face the hot sun without any food or water and now they're all of a sudden friendly rivals? Gibbs was pretty pissed off that Will betrayed the crew to Sao Feng, the only one probably angrier than him was Elizabeth herself, yet they seemed to be on good terms when the movie was over. Will and Bootstrap, why on earth would anyone fight so hard for the dad that left him when he was a child when they have a gorgeous pirate girl that is crazy about him? The whole series is about how people treat each other so poorly and yet never really mean to do so. Elizabeth killing Jack is a huge betrayal, huge. It ruined any potential for the two of them to get together, and there was potential. It was in the works. But she messed it up doing what she thought would be for the greater good. Why does Jack treat this betrayal different than how he treated Barbossa's? I really don't know. The only answer I can come up with that makes him out to be the sane character I know he is is that he knows why she did it. She didn't do it for greed or to just be mean. She did it for Will because she loves him and if he was in her position, Jack would have done the same thing. The film was sloppy about his feelings regarding his resurrection back into the real world and even sloppier about how he went from very bitter towards her to maintaining that strong friendship they always had.

Now, had she left him there to die to "teach him a lesson" or because he looked at a girl lustily or something, yeah, that's abusive. No question. But Jack admired the decision because he would have done the same thing. He didn't like dying and will never forget that she did that to him, but he didn't decide to hunt her down and kill her like he chose to do with Barbossa. Talk about an abusive relationship.

I'm not going to go on too much more of a rant because we've had all the shipping debates before, but I know you ship a very interesting relationship (and I'm not talking about Willabeth) that is in its own way disturbing because one character has tried to kill the other, imprison the other, while the other has no grief at all making the other guy's life a living hell. Yep, the sparrington relationship.

I won't say something stupid like "well, willabeth can be considered an abusive relationship" because, well, that's a stupid thing to say. But please don't imply that sparrabethers need professional help or are attracted to abusive people. I manage to stay quite sane.

hmmm... interesting discussion here. i dont need to go into the details of my own life to assure you, Surreal, that I understand abusive relationships and am very aware of what that entails and the psychological problems that go with it. I dont think Sparrabeth comes anywhere near fitting the bill for an abusive relationship, though your analogy is clever. Unfortunately, if that is going to comprise an abusive relationship, then a whole bunch of disney movies (and great disney romances) are going to have to go out with the bathwater, too. It's fairly T and T, as well as Disney, to have that kind of betrayal, which some might refer to as tough love, some might refer to as romantic tension, and some might refer to as "difficult choices for the greater good." in any case, i think willo handled that topic nicely. personal trauma/baggage i think play a huge role in relationship-preferences, but my own certainly hasn't doused my love of sparrabeth.

on that note, Willo, I'm sorry if it appears I am dragging shipping wars back into your thread, because it isn't what I intend, however, almost all my plot-hole problems with AWE revolve around relationships, and as you put it, the sloppiness thereof. after discussing the annoyances of magically appearing lingerie, continuously discussed but never revealed "marks", the failure to go into detail about certain character's histories, and the complete surrender of beckett's fleet after his one ship is destroyed, etc, i naturally revert back to the relationship aspect of the story, since those are the ones that puzzled me the most.

Yes. I don't know what could have been edited out, but things could have been edited out to make sense of a few things, such as the mark. I really really wish they had gone into that along with Jack and Beckett's history. There's a really good story there we didn't get to hear. Lol, you're obsessed with Liz's lingerie. My guess is that maybe it's not so much lingerie so much as just what's under her armor. That's my assessment of that. But I wondered at first where it came from, too. They needed to spell out a few things. I know the best rule of film-making is give the audience 2 and 2 and let them make 4, but they gave us 2 and wanted us to make 4 with it. Hence all the different opinions about what certain things mean. And I'm not trying to ship anything here, but what is Beckett's fascination with sparrabeth? Is he trying to start stuff to be able to use later, does he suspect it, does he just like f*cking with people's heads? Is he jealous of one of them? Just like the series hints that Norrington was the best choice for Liz in the long run, there are plenty of hints to suggest that Beckett is in fact gay and is crushing big time on Jack...in his own unhealthy way, of course in the sense that if Jack just doesn't pounce on him right then and there, Beckett is just fine with killing him.

I didn't mean to explode on the abusive relationships thing. I just think a much more abusive one that is just as intriguing is Tia and Davy's and the only reason I think those two should stay together is so no one else gets caught up in it. Talk about a plot hole.

Calypso: I got over you a long time ago, but now I want you again.

Davy: But I'm going to talk in vague terms about what being captain of the Flying Dutchman means, and express my angst.

Calypso: That's all right. I'm going to shift in loyalties from you to the pirates, back to you, back to the pirates, etc.

Davy: Dear God, you really screwed me up and I cut out my heart, but I think I'm falling in love with you all over again.

Calypso: It's the whimsical, manipulative, ungrateful side of me, isn't it?

Davy: Actually it's the teeth that's doing it for me, but sure, I'll go with everything you just mentioned.

well, all of Liz's outfits seemed a bit weird to me in awe. i used to work as a costume designer and seamstress so i'm a bit of a nerd about that sort of thing, sorry... when something is anachronistic, or doesn't seem to be something the character would aptly wear, or comes out of nowhere, i tend to notice and freak out. plus, Elizabeth went from wearing literally one outfit throughout dmc (which was ugly but in a way, very realistic and quite refreshing for a female lead) to having all these bizarre changes happening all the time in AWE... not that i dont love a good kimono, but throughout the film i was getting more and more amused by the "queen amidala" looks that by the end of the film, with the way the honeymoon sequence worked out, i just couldn't help myself and had to laugh at the little black dress with nice slits up the side. obviously it can be explained, but the costumes in cotbp and dmc seemed so carefully researched, and then in awe, like the film, they took quite a lurch into another realm, so to speak.

Aw, I liked her costume in DMC, especially her coat. That coat is pretty cool. I think in the first two movies, the costume designers kept her costumes simple. Even her expensive London fru-fru dress is fairly simple in its design and pattern. In AWE, they obviously had more freedom since it's in another region. But she had too many costumes and I think simpler is better.

COTBP costumes:
1. Nightgown: simple, accurate, white looks good on her. This is her "white" movie.
2. Expensive gown that ends up water-logged: Yellowy, kind of her high society color, but overal very pretty
3. Back in the nightgown
4. Barbossa's wench dress. It doesn't look good on her imo, but it's simple and it seems most of Liz's captors like her to be dressed according to their fantasy
5. Her underwear, white, yet risque for its time
6. Her soldier costume, which is cool.
7. Back in a fru-fru dress. I really can't tell the difference between this one and the one at the bottom of the harbor. Maybe someone fished it out.

DMC

1. Soaked wedding dress the color of baby poop. Everything bad that happens to Liz happens when she's in yellow. The dress gets worse the longer she has it.
2. Her boy disguise. Practical, charming in a way
3. The vest/shirt combination that looks similar to Jack's costume. I think it looks good on her. She's one of the boys, her coat and hat are cool, it lets her fight and the shirt looks like it lets her breathe.

AWE: The nightmare begins
1. Her blue outfit that is a little too short. Practical for where she is. I like her shoes.
2. Her covered up "let's rescue Jack" costume. It looks like a cross between something in Braveheart and Mad Max. I can't really describe it becuse it looks complicated.
3. Her Geisha outfit, or as Kate calls it the Queen Amidala outfit. She's in this for so little time that it wasn't needed, but like Barbossa, Sao likes his captive girls to dress in a way that suits his fantasy before he goes on his wild raping spree. This costume gets better the more beat up it gets (see the norribeth kiss).
4. Her Samurai outfit. Okay, I understand she's the captain of a Singaporean ship, and wearing the cultural garb is not only practical, but good human relations with her crew. That said, she has this weird sash and her hat looks like a vagina from the top view. Since all the guys are taller than her, I'm sure they had a good laugh about it.
5. The black underwear. Uh, a little too modern for my taste. I would have preferred her in a more "bridal" piece, maybe similar to her COTBP underwear, only showing more skin, like maybe having the skirt come to mid-thigh and it have straps instead of sleeves. The black underwear makes her look like Elvira Goes to the Beach
6. Pseudo-DMC/Mom costume at the end: I don't get to see it that much to make a call about it, but I'm neutral for this one. It's hard to age a 22 year old to a 32 year old, so the frumpiness may be a way of enhancing the illusion that Keira has had a kid.