I'm sorry I posted a shipping comment in the plotholes thread..but hey I created the thread...soo.....just kidding. It's hard to pinpoint one particular plot hole, because for me the entire movie was one big plot hole that got swallowed up in the callypso whirlpool at the end of the movie......
I don't think j/e was an abusive relationship..that's a bit of a stretch...it's only a movie...and a fantasy movie at that......but If LIz is such a nasty, abusive person...why should she be with Will, for that matter.
but if you put it that way surreal, then you right....thank goodness, Jack wised up and stayed as far away from Elizabeth as possible....I just hope Will is watching his back....afterall, she is such a charming murderess........
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I'm sorry I posted a shipping comment in the plotholes thread..but hey I created the thread...soo.....just kidding. It's hard to pinpoint one particular plot hole, because for me the entire movie was one big plot hole that got swallowed up in the callypso whirlpool at the end of the movie......I don't think j/e was an abusive relationship..that's a bit of a stretch...it's only a movie...and a fantasy movie at that......but If LIz is such a nasty, abusive person...why should she be with Will, for that matter.
but if you put it that way surreal, then you right....thank goodness, Jack wised up and stayed as far away from Elizabeth as possible....I just hope Will is watching his back....afterall, she is such a charming murderess........
hahaha have i told you lately that i luv you??! hahaha you are great. i sort of agree, after awe, i stopped thinking jack could be with liz. liz changed too much. nice whirlpool comment.
Willo, I think the dress Liz wears at the end of cotbp has red hints to it, well, not bright red, but some color. and the neckline is different. but the overall schema is pretty similar. i like the end dress better than the one she almost drowns in. it's interesting that her wedding dress looks exactly like the dress that nearly kills her in film 1.
"oops, that 's right...Will's already dead.....a man with no heart...ironic that in the original script Will tells Jack that he can't let Elizabeth give her heart to a man who has no heart....."------lovethemtigers
Ouch. Was that really going to be in there? That's so horrible. So I guess they "fight" over her, or were supposed to? I'm kind of glad that didn't happen. That's just such a mean thing for Will to say. He's hard on Jack, always has been, but wow.
(Jack runs off to his cabin and plays "Theme from Ice Castles" on his mp3 player. He lays on his bed and cuddles his stuffed squid.)
Jack: No one understands me, Mr. Jones Jr! Least of all Will. I thought he was my friend!
(Gibbs comes in)
Gibbs: Aw. Don't listen to Will. It's gonna be okay. (pats him)
Jack: Will (sniff) you (sniff) bring me some (sniff) rum? (optimistic smile)
Originally posted by willofthewisp
"oops, that 's right...Will's already dead.....a man with no heart...ironic that in the original script Will tells Jack that he can't let Elizabeth give her heart to a man who has no heart....."------lovethemtigersOuch. Was that really going to be in there? That's so horrible. So I guess they "fight" over her, or were supposed to? I'm kind of glad that didn't happen. That's just such a mean thing for Will to say. He's hard on Jack, always has been, but wow.
(Jack runs off to his cabin and plays "Theme from Ice Castles" on his mp3 player. He lays on his bed and cuddles his stuffed squid.)
Jack: No one understands me, Mr. Jones Jr! Least of all Will. I thought he was my friend!
(Gibbs comes in)
Gibbs: Aw. Don't listen to Will. It's gonna be okay. (pats him)
Jack: Will (sniff) you (sniff) bring me some (sniff) rum? (optimistic smile)
yes, poor misunderstood Jack...all Elizabeth and will ever did was take advantage of his good side.....Yes, the original script had that line in there, there was suppose to be another sword fight between Jack and Will..it was suppose to take place after Will escapes from the brig.....instead we got the conversation where Jack tells Will that he will stab the heart and Will can be with his charming murderess.....
Surreal, you are right...Will and Elizabeth do deserve each other...they are both spoiled rotten brats, who have no care to others feelings....
All they ever did was screw Jack over! Jack's better off without them..that is for sure....if there is a POTC4....let there be no Will and Liz.....I was watching Jessica Alba last night on David Letterman...now she would be a hot pirate mistress for Jack to hook up with......another younger woman..but hot just the same.......she was hooked up romantically with that older guy in Fantastic Four...so why not Johnny..who is like a thousand times, hotter, sexier, better looking than that dude in Fantastic Four....
You know, kate, I go back and forth....times like these I realize Jack is better off without Elizabeth..the one we saw in AWE.....but the Sparrabether in me can't help but remember the jack and liz from COTBP and DMC........
but, ultimately, if you consider everything that happened......then as Johnny said, "it's just better for his health, I reckon"..that Jack stay as far away from Elizabeth and Will as possible...
So, Kate, lovethemtigers, maybe I'm missing something huge, but how is AWE Liz worse than how she was in COTBP or DMC? She seems unsympathetic at times, mainly because of Norrington, but I don't understand how she's fine in DMC and horrible in AWE. A lot of horrible things happen to her in AWE-- she loses her father, is close to losing her relationship with Will, is close to losing her friendship with Jack, loses James, and loses Will briefly only to find out that he's alive but can't be with her for 10 years. So I think she's excused if she's a little harsher than what she was. But she really comes into her own in AWE, imo. She becomes a captain and the pirate king. And before you say so, she only traded Jack because she picked up on the fact that he and Will had planned something out. That's the trio working beautifully together. Unfortunately, I think had the movie been the same except that she does choose Jack, I think that would have made her look really unsympathetic.
I think this is what it comes down to for me. She doesn't have really strong moments of connection with any characters. It's like she's shut down from everyone throughout the film, and she's lost those moments of cheekiness and vulnerability that dot her perfermance in cotbp and dmc, making it more balanced. it AWE, she is harsh, shut down, pissed off, or screaming. It's not Keira's fault--- it's the way the character was written for AWE mostly i think that bothered me.
She never reconciles with Jack... never has any moment of understanding there. They are fighting, they hate each other, they are trading each other, and then after her husband almost dies and Jack weirdly saves him, they are all cool. wtf? makes no sense.
same with Will. She won't talk to him, won't look at him, is fighting with him, then suddenly marries him. there's a major gap in the journey. like you said, they gave us 2 and expected us to make 4 with it.
and the worst part of her character in film 3, for me, was choosing to be single mom with kid in frumpy dress. she's pirate king for about 10 minutes, then marries herself off, tries to be funny by wearing Will's boot, and then she's done. standing on a beach, pregnant, alone, etc. spends ten years raising a kid, etc. I'm not bothered that she didn't end up with Jack, because I didn't really like Jack in AWE either, but personally it's essentially a question of "wild, impulsive adventurer with your life ahead of you" or "married but single mom now raising kid by self with a price still over your head"... I always really identified with Liz's character but since the latter is what her character clearly wanted most, i found i no longer identified with her or even understood her.
i really tried hard to like the film. i went into it with a positive attitude, even though i had been informed it was a willabeth ending. and i hated it. i hated the message it gave, i hated that it tried to hero-ify the pirates, i hated that it didn't make sense, and i hated where it took ALL the characters. i saw it again to try and like it, and had to walk out of the theatre it bothered me so much. the character of jack sparrow lost his charm for me, the swashbuckling fun i had been hoping for turned into a nightmare. but some people loved it, so that's just me.
I wasn't criticizing. I just wanted to know. I think AWE just affected us both a little differently. It's my least favorite of the series. COTBP by far had the best story and DMC added a few things to the characters without changing completely like other series have been guilty of doing (cough, The Mummy, cough).
While I am all for women having careers and part of me is a huge feminist (you are talking to a military member here), I saw nothing wrong with her deciding to be a wife and mother. As far as I understood, she was still the pirate king. I figured she had taken time out of her adventures the day she knew Will was expected to come back to wait at the place he left off. It never crossed my mind that she would just give up all other aspects of her personality.
Now do I think that was achieved through the editing? Hell no. That's AWE's problem is its editing. And I am in complete agreement with you about her relationship with both Jack and Will in this one. She's much more withdrawn and I don't know...there is always something suspicious to me when one member of a couple spontaneously suggests marriage like that. What, she didn't think they would make it out alive? How many times between their last attempt at a wedding and this moment have they almost died? Why now? I was very willing to have a willabeth ending, but that required a little more growth in their relationship for me. True, they don't have that fairy tale romance anymore, but there growth was making up after a fight. They had misunderstood each other and had been secretive. And then they made up. That's not growth or maturation imo. That's what couples do. If Will and Liz had never had a fight until then, that's pretty strange to me. The sex....meh. I was much more disturbed with how Liz actually got there than the act itself. (Hello, non-virgin club as all the older men wink)
Jack. I LOVED that we were getting in his head. He was sort of the mystery man in COTBP and we got to know him a little better in DMC, but here we were in his mind, seeing his own personal hell. I thought it was intriguing and loved it immensely. And then...the multiple Jacks stayed throughout and became a sort of running joke. Um, okay, I can deal with that. Ah, he's mad at Liz. Rightly so. He's afraid of death because of her. Wait, now they're talking? Wait, now he's voting her the pirate king? I guess he must be okay with her. Whow, they're talking about if it would or would not have worked out between them? What the hell? I liked that he sort of "rekindled" (slashy word, but I don't mean it that way) his relationship with Will, but I didn't like his sudden obsession with the Fountain of Youth. I never liked that premise. I guess he's always wanted immortality, but they turned it up and that just didn't click with me. But I had a new appreciation for him. We saw his tormented side, his warrior side, and his "oh my God, my friend is dying" side.
So yeah, AWE was the poorest of the three, but I for the most part enjoyed it. It's an interesting discussion, how the characters change and how much change is too much to be believable.
I agree with Kate...it's not Keira's fault...it's the writing....
I too, just thought Liz was harsh and cold..yes, I know, alot of things happened to her that was bad..but that's the entire problem with AWE.....COTBP and DMC were fun movies filled with comedy...and mystery....AWE was just filled with misery!
I just wanted to have one moment between Jack and Elizabeth...because there is a connection between them that goes beyond friendship..but we got nothing........
I just wanted a moment between jack and will..where Will tells jack thank you and admits to jack what a good man he truly is......
I have not explanations for my feelings...except for the fact that I simply just did not enjoy AWE...and I think the reason I'm so upset about it is because never before have i so anticipated a movie..or anything and be so disappointed.......
Hopefully you are reading the surrealkatewillomina project. I consider it how AWE should have been. I'm a little torn and I feel like I'm playing both sides, but even though I liked AWE, I have huge problems with it, a few being what you mentioned. Hence why I'm on this thread so much. Yes, I would have liked closure with a few relationships, besides Jack and Elizabeth's. I would have liked James to stay alive and actually contribute to the plot as significantly as he did in DMC. I would have liked more explanation of the curse so we would be 100% on the same page as the writers when the movie ended. I would have liked the whole peanut thing to have stopped.
Amen, I say!
I agree...I was so disappointed in what became of the lovely James Norrington...I had such better visions for him than what we got...
I didn't want Gov. Swann to die...I mean, not like he was a big contributor to the plots or anything...I just though his death was useless....
I did not like the peanut thing....I didn't like the goat thing....I mean the multiple Jacks would have been fine...but it went a little overboard.....I understand it was to show us the madness going on inside Jack's head in Davy's Locker...but I don't think the goat and such was necessary to do that.
and Soa Feng......I found my tape today that I taped "Dancing with the Stars" just so I could see the trailer premiere......and it was amazing...the trailer was so much better than the movie....and it seemed like Soa Feng was going to be such a great/big part in the movie, and I'm still sitting here trying to figure that one out......
speaking of the trailer and dancing with the stars...remember how excited we all were...I couldn't even sleep that night for wanting to read everyone's comments...here and at KTTC......gosh, that seems like another life, another time. Pre-AWE when things were still happy and optomistic..the air was filled with electricity those days and weeks following the premiere of the trailer...and everything came crashing down on May 19 when the movie was shown in it's entirety at the World Premier at Disneyland..and we started getting the reports about how the movie all panned out. Even If I was a Willabether...I can't imagine being happy with how things turned out for Liz and Will......there's no satisfaction in that.
And I can't even discuss the curse, cuz it never has, never will make any sense...it's too contradictory.....
Yeah, Sao Feng was such a bad-ass. He really was a pirate in the true sense of the word. And even though he really had no redeeming qualities I wanted him to live. I wanted him to have a big part, but it seemed that Chow Yun Fat (or is it Yun Fat Chow?) was wasted. He had a cool bathhouse scene and his scene with Keira is disturbingly evil and full of tension, but then all of a sudden that was it. It seemed like his only purpose was to provide a way for Will to doublecross (seemingly doublecross) everyone else. The betrayals were a little too much, imo and the critics dissed the movie because they had a hard time keeping track of the betrayals.
So as far as I understand it as far as plot goes.
Will, Liz, Gibbs, and crew led by Barbossa have been at sea for a while now, probably having learned from Tia Dalma (whom they foolishly take with them) that Sao Feng has charts that will get them into the Locker to save Jack. Naturally they have to sneak into Sao's hangout. From what I gathered, Will had already gone there and had been made a prisoner. Liz and Barbossa were going to go next and confront Sao openly while Pintel, Ragetti, Marty, and Gibbs, and Cotton stayed in the shadows should a confrontation arise. Sao is an arrogant jerk we love to hate that has Will pop out of a hot tub. So they all fight and get the charts.
Betrayal #1: Will makes a deal with Sao that he will turn the crew over to him. I don't really get this because does he trade the crew in exchange for the charts? I know Will wants the Pearl, but Sao doesn't have it, so this is a kind of gray area to me.
Betrayal #2: Sao plans to doublcross Will, keep the ships for himself, and turn Jack over to Beckett once he's rescued in order to stay in the EITC's good graces and be left alone. We don't know that yet, though.
So everyone has the charts and goes over the waterfall to get into the Locker. They meet up with Jack, tension rises, and they get back without much of a sweat besides the fact they learn Liz's dad was killed. More touches of The Odyssey for you literature fans out there.
Betrayal #3: Once Will's betrayal is made public, Jack is turned over to Beckett, Liz goes with Sao Feng, and Will...I kind of lost track of where Will was at exactly this point in time. Only seen it once, remember. Jack has decided by now that he never wants to die again and is going to stab the heart. He makes a deal with Beckett that he will lead him to Shipwreck Cove and turn the pirates over to him. In exchange, Jack, the Pearl, and his crew will go free.
Betrayal #4: This is an extension of a huge betrayal that happened in DMC. Sao Feng is dead and Liz is made captain of his ship. She runs into Norrington and Bootstrap and annoys Norrington about his betrayal. Norrington frees her, gives her the best kiss ever, and dies. So Betrayal 4 is compensated.
Somewhere in all of this, Jack gets back to the ship and throws Will into the brig for his treachery. Will gets out and they decide that Jack will stab the heart, thereby freeing Bootstrap and leaving Will free to stay with Liz. Will goes overboard and discusses his feelings for Jack. "How I hate him."
Betrayal #5: Will winds up with Beckett and Davy and really brings the betrayals to a whole new level. He tells them Barbossa and the pirates have Calypso and he can get her to them.
At the Brethren Court, the rest of our heroes are reunited and Liz is made pirate king. Cool beans. Parlay is really cool and I don't consider this a betrayal because the trio has planned this out. Jack is exchanged for Will and put in the brig of the Flying Dutchman. Will and Liz leave to plan and execute a battle.
Betrayal #6: Somehow, Davy and Calypso have a reunion and she says she will get revenge on the pirates for imprisoning her in her human body. However, once she is getting released, she decides to turn her wrath on Davy himself and starts the storm and whirlpool. Hey, she's a sea goddess, so she can do whatever she wants.
The big battle ensues and life sucks for just about everyone except for Will and Liz who decide to get married in the midst of a battle. Jack, meanwhile, is busy fighting Davy for the chest. Our trio wind up on the Dutchman and just as Jack finally has the heart, Davy ups the ante and stabs Will...hard....a lot. As Will is about to die, Jack makes him stab the heart and pulls Liz to safety. Will is made captain of the Flying Dutchman, gets a new bandana, and his dad cuts his heart out for him. Don't know why the heart has to be out of the person for him/her to be captain, but hey.
So...Liz is egged on by the rest of the pirates to go and lose her virginity and Will says he won't hold her to any promises, meaning if she wants to go fool around, he'll understand. She decides to be faithful to him, however, and goes and does whatever for 10 years, coming back with Junior to meet Will upon his return.
Jack meets up with his whores and may or may not have slept with them before deciding they can have a ride on the Pearl. Lo and behold, the Pearl is gone with Gibbs getting frisky with his bear. Gibbs and Jack part ways and Jack gets in a dingy with a chunk of Barbossa's map to beat him to the Fountain of Youth...which I'm hoping doesn't exist so he can go and have adventures with Will and Liz again.
So, do I have the plot right? Have I left out anything? It's really confusing and I know there are parts I've probably left out.