Anakin (ROTS) v. Sidious (ROTS)

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
and anomolly how can he be the best saber duelist when he LOST to obi-wan

Perhaps DE Sidious is better than Anakin in saber.

Yes, perhaps. Both DE Luke and DE Sidious would have a good chance of beating Anakin in saber combat. I said NJO though as by that time Luke is the clear better, with little argument.

come on anakin isn't as good a saber duelist as mace windu or yoda

and anomolly how can he be the best saber duelist when he LOST to obi-wan

And I see DE Luke and Sidious being above Anakin in saber combat.

come on anakin isn't as good a saber duelist as mace windu or yoda

If u ask me, Anakin was never thinking as clear as in EP 1...

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dude, first of all, Anakin > Kenobi, Nick Gilalrd says in saber combat Anakin is a level 9 and Kenobi is a level 8. Kenobi got lucky in that fight by getting the high ground, and Anakin wasn't thinking clearly in that fight, either. Lucas says that if the fight had continued without Kenobi getting the high ground that Anakin would have won.

And I see DE Luke and Sidious being above Anakin in saber combat.

Then are you suggesting that the reasn that Mace thinkins Anakin > Yoda is because Anakin has greater Force Powers? 😂

when it comes to the jedi talkin about other jedi they're modest. like mace windu says that shaak ti was better than him in LoE and he says that depa was better than he was too but niether of them were. so mace saying that anakin is better than yoda i don't belive.

and i think that mace was sayin that anakin was > yoda was because of what he could become.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
come on anakin isn't as good a saber duelist as mace windu or yoda

Yeah, in pure saber contest, Anakin is on par with Mace and Yoda, if not better than them.

DE Sidious>Anakin in saber.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Dude, first of all, Anakin > Kenobi, Nick Gilalrd says in saber combat Anakin is a level 9 and Kenobi is a level 8. Kenobi got lucky in that fight by getting the high ground, and Anakin wasn't thinking clearly in that fight, either.

Lucas says that if the fight had continued without Kenobi getting the high ground that Anakin would have won.

Then are you suggesting that the reasn that Mace thinkins Anakin > Yoda is because Anakin has greater Force Powers? 😂 [/B]

Well,as good as Sidious is with a lightsaber,I think that he is not in Anakin's league.Anakin is supposed to be one of,if not the best, saber duelist of the PT,while Sidious focus more in the force.We hardly ever saw him im action with a lightsaber,those two he killed while fighting mace were weaklings compared with the likes of Mace,Anakin,Yoda and Sidious himself.Now don't get me wrong,I know that they were both Jedi Masters,but they weren't on Sids league.Period.But in the all-out fight I see Sidious frying Anakin with Force Lightning,throwing him around like a bag of potatoes and them crushing him with pods before Anakin can even blink.Anakin is no match for Sidious in the force,and he wouldn't even get close with his saber.P. S.In the Revenge Of The Sith videogame Anakin only kills Sidious in the alternate ending with a cheap shot-Sids wasn't prepared for an attack.

Originally posted by kiddo44
pure saber, w/ the darkside hes better than both of them.

yet he still lost to obi-wan

On the point of "Anakin isn't better than Yoda/Sidious because Obi-Wan beat him":

Winning =/= Better. For some reason people have difficulty getting past this concept. The only time winning automatically makes someone a better duelist (Or whatever they happen to be doing) is in a sponsored match (Government, sports, whatever) in which the fighters are restricted by rules and regulations, and even then only if they follow those rules and regulations.

In a real fight, you don't have to be the best to win. A stronger opponent can still get arrogant and make stupid mistakes (Anakin, Sephiroth, Cell), a weaker opponent can overtake a stronger opponent through "cheap tricks" or "cheating" (I don't think "cheating" exists in a fight to the death, where the only real objective is winning), etc, etc. There are dozens of factors that can allow someone to lose while still being superior to their opponent.

In this particular instance, Anakin was completely enraged. Not to be confused with what he pulled against Dooku. When he fought Dooku, he did what a Sith is supposed to do. When he fought Obi-Wan, he did what the Sith aren't supposed to do. Sith aren't supposed to let their rage control them, because it just makes them do stupid things (Making a jump over someone with an ignited lightsaber from a bad tactical position because an opponent basically said "Hah! I win!"😉. Sith are supposed to gather that rage, control it, and focus it on a target. Anakin was highly unstable in various ways when dueling Obi-Wan, and as such went the path of the James Bond villain, and had a severe case of AIS (Arrogance Induced Stupidity).

That's not even including the part where he was dueling someone who was a master of an extremely defensive style that works particularly well against aggressive styles like Anakin's. Or the part where the man he was dueling had been training him for roughly ten to thirteen years at this point.

very good points. i agree he wasn't lvl headed at all fighting obi-wan but at the end of your post you said

That's not even including the part where he was dueling someone who was a master of an extremely defensive style that works particularly well against aggressive styles like Anakin's. Or the part where the man he was dueling had been training him for roughly ten to thirteen years at this point.

which helps reiterate that obi wan can beat him

When he fought Obi-Wan, he did what the Sith aren't supposed to do. Sith aren't supposed to let their rage control them, because it just makes them do stupid things (Making a jump over someone with an ignited lightsaber from a bad tactical position because an opponent basically said "Hah! I win!"😉.

I have to disagree with this one a certain level:

The Sith advocate using their hate to fuel their power and to crush the opposition. While Sith can be typically insidious in their plannings, in combat each uses rage to take the initiative. However, Lucas' entire point in making an issue over rage "controlling" the Sith is a poke at the idea itself- rage makes clear thinking impossible. Even Mace Windu, who walks the line (And no, he ain't Johnny Cash) knows he cannot give into rage in the slightest because it can blind him in combat.

Sith typically indulge in it. In this case, Anakin was simply giving himself into it and embracing the Dark Side, at the cost of his own humbleness and clearheadedness, both of which are Jedi traits. So Obi-Wan defeated Anakin less through sheer skill and more through a superior battle mentality. The Sith grow powerful through their rage, but they are blinded by it, and can never use that power edge to fully defeat a Jedi who abides by his own teachings.

Yeah, that's true. But the overall point still applies. Anakin is much more efficient when he controls that rage and focuses it on a target. From what I can tell, it's basically all of the perks without any of the drawbacks (The increase in speed, power, and so on, but without the loss of mentality and, in turn, efficiency).

which helps reiterate that obi wan can beat him

Yes. It helps the argument that Obi-Wan can beat him. Not that anyone else can. Mace doesn't have those particular advantages. Yoda doesn't have those particular advantages. Sidious doesn't have those particular advantages. It doesn't help your point of "Obi-Wan defeated Anakin so Sidious can as well" because those advantages only apply to Obi-Wan. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is a class above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan just has several distinct advantages because of his relationship with Anakin (Anakin tends to be a little more mentally/emotionally unstable when dealing with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is an extremely skilled master of a style that work's well against Anakins, and Obi-Wan has been personally training him for at least ten years).

When comparing Anakin to Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Revan, Exar Kun, etc, etc., the Obi-Wan fight doesn't hold as much weight because there were specific circumstances in that fight that probably wouldn't apply to a duel with the others (Much like the Luke/Vader fight, or the Ulic/Cay fight, in which it's likely that at least one party wasn't fighting at peak efficiency due to circumstance).

Originally posted by VinCon01
Yes. It helps the argument that [B]Obi-Wan can beat him. Not that anyone else can. Mace doesn't have those particular advantages. Yoda doesn't have those particular advantages. Sidious doesn't have those particular advantages. It doesn't help your point of "Obi-Wan defeated Anakin so Sidious can as well" because those advantages only apply to Obi-Wan. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is a class above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan just has several distinct advantages because of his relationship with Anakin (Anakin tends to be a little more mentally/emotionally unstable when dealing with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is an extremely skilled master of a style that work's well against Anakins, and Obi-Wan has been personally training him for at least ten years).

When comparing Anakin to Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Revan, Exar Kun, etc, etc., the Obi-Wan fight doesn't hold as much weight because there were specific circumstances in that fight that probably wouldn't apply to a duel with the others (Much like the Luke/Vader fight, or the Ulic/Cay fight, in which it's likely that at least one party wasn't fighting at peak efficiency due to circumstance). [/B]

point taken but mace is supposed to be the best in the order, mace could use his shatterpoinnt ability along with vapaad to beat anakin i dont see how you guys can't see this.

Originally posted by VinCon01
Yeah, that's true. But the overall point still applies. Anakin is much more efficient when he controls that rage and focuses it on a target. From what I can tell, it's basically all of the perks without any of the drawbacks (The increase in speed, power, and so on, but without the loss of mentality and, in turn, efficiency).

Can you please tell me where the idea comes from that Anakin didn't control that rage at that time and that he didn't focus it on Obi-Wan ? Right before the battle starts Anakin was pretty much accusing Obi-Wan of turning Padme against him. During the battle he doesn't look like somebody who did entirely lost his mind. He was clearly fighting rather efficiently instead of keep hacking on Obi-Wan's defences like a madman blinded by hatred.

Yes. It helps the argument that Obi-Wan can beat him. Not that anyone else can. Mace doesn't have those particular advantages. Yoda doesn't have those particular advantages. Sidious doesn't have those particular advantages. It doesn't help your point of "Obi-Wan defeated Anakin so Sidious can as well" because those advantages only apply to Obi-Wan. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is a class above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan just has several distinct advantages because of his relationship with Anakin (Anakin tends to be a little more mentally/emotionally unstable when dealing with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is an extremely skilled master of a style that work's well against Anakins, and Obi-Wan has been personally training him for at least ten years).

I don't know why we even have to argue the level of skill here.

a) Yoda pretty much says that Obi-Wan is not even close to being good enough to deal with Sidious. Because of that he sends him out to deal with Anakin. Since Obi-Wan is powerful enough to deal with Anakin (demonstrated during their fight), Sidious logically must be more powerful if we can trust Yoda's judgement.

b) Sidious himself in "RoDV" thinks that Anakin, as he was in RotS, would have been utterly destroyed by Yoda. This might be arrogance on Sidious part, but I don't know why he should develop thoughts like that, when he was always talking and thinking about how great the force potential and lightsaber skills of Anakin were before he was injured in his duel with Obi-Wan.

c) Since actual force mastery is strongly influencing the lightsaber skill of an individual (if we can thrust Kas'ims comments there) how can Anakin, who wasn't able to overpower Obi-Wan, be compareable to Yoda in that department ? And I also doubt that his raw lightsaber mastery exceeded that of a guy who had almost 900 years to train with that weapon (Yoda), or the guy who invented the "deadliest form of lightsaber combat" when he was below Anakin's own age (Mace) which both had considerable problems with taking Sidious down in personal confrontation.

d) Lucas himself said that only Mace and Yoda were able to deal with Sidious at this point in time. I mentioned it multiple times before: I don't see Anakin on that list and to be honest - imho nothing that Anakin displayed so far is enough to put him on one level with Yoda or Sidious.

When comparing Anakin to Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Revan, Exar Kun, etc, etc., the Obi-Wan fight doesn't hold as much weight because there were specific circumstances in that fight that probably wouldn't apply to a duel with the others (Much like the Luke/Vader fight, or the Ulic/Cay fight, in which it's likely that at least one party wasn't fighting at peak efficiency due to circumstance).

This is again assuming that Anakin wasn't doing the best he could against Obi-Wan. You might also take other fights. In the fight with Dooku, Anakin also didn't look to great when he - even together with Obi-Wan - wasn't able to deal with the Sith Lord to such an extend that Dooku was able to kick his ass through the place, while force choking Obi-Wan. Of course...Anakin entered "the zone" then, as it's commonly called here, but even then he was in need to utilize raw physical brutality and not duelling finesse or greater force abilities to deal with Dooku.

Sidious in his fight with Yoda did look much more impressive in the lightsaber and force power department than Anakin did look in the fights before. Of course this is a matter of interpretation. But I still don't see any reason why Anakin should be able to take Sidious out in direct confrontation, when almost everything we've seen of the two in RotS leads to the suggestion that Sidious would be able to take Anakin down - with superior force master, decent lightsaber skills (at the very least) and being, quite simply, the better tactician and manipulator who knows Anakin inside out.

Hey Nai, what was the quote in which Sidious said that Yoda would have destroyed Anakin..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hey Nai, what was the quote in which Sidious said that Yoda would have destroyed Anakin..

Vader: I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obi-Wan.
Sidious: No you weren't. So just imagine what Yoda might have done to you.

I think that's fairly self-explanatory.

When comparing Anakin to Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Revan, Exar Kun, etc, etc., the Obi-Wan fight doesn't hold as much weight because there were specific circumstances in that fight that probably wouldn't apply to a duel with the others (Much like the Luke/Vader fight, or the Ulic/Cay fight, in which it's likely that at least one party wasn't fighting at peak efficiency due to circumstance).