Anakin (ROTS) v. Sidious (ROTS)

Originally posted by Janus Marius
So Obi-Wan defeated Anakin less through sheer skill and more through a superior battle mentality. The Sith grow powerful through their rage, but they are blinded by it, and can never use that power edge to fully defeat a Jedi who abides by his own teachings. [/B]

originally posted by Vincon01
Yes. It helps the argument that Obi-Wan can beat him. Not that anyone else can. Mace doesn't have those particular advantages. Yoda doesn't have those particular advantages. Sidious doesn't have those particular advantages. It doesn't help your point of "Obi-Wan defeated Anakin so Sidious can as well" because those advantages only apply to Obi-Wan. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is a class above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan just has several distinct advantages because of his relationship with Anakin (Anakin tends to be a little more mentally/emotionally unstable when dealing with Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is an extremely skilled master of a style that work's well against Anakins, and Obi-Wan has been personally training him for at least ten years).

Also another reason why Obiwan beat Anakin was because he trained Anakin and knew him very well.

Originally posted by kiddo44
That fight on Mustafar was a special one its not about Sith in general. Kenobi no matter how much better of battle mentality he had could never defeat Count Dooku, who was less than Anakin. Anakin lost that fight b/c of his lack of focus and his emotions of fighting Kenobi.

that anakin lost a duell doesnt mean he is weaker. he was confused about everything that happened. and they only way that obi wan could win was with giving ground, and in the end it was only his luck that made him win.

and u cant know what would happened in a fight whit anakin and sidious, cause anakin wasnt pro yet. and after al he is the chosen one, so if he would be ready he would kick everyones butt

in fact, i think that anakin and maybe windu, but never luke could have killed the emperor. anakin at least has the most talent to get the job done

Originally posted by skywalker12
in fact, i think that anakin and maybe windu, but never luke could have killed the emperor. anakin at least has the most talent to get the job done

Well...Sidious...of course.

Force contest- Sidious easily, the strongest Sith Lord ever, mops the floor with Anakin, who hasn't got control over his Force mastery and even if he did, at this point its not as good as Sidious, not even close.

Lightsaber duel- If this was a saber march with no talking allowed, Anakin would win comfortably at worst.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

This is from ROTS novel and look what Dooku did to him, yes he(Anakin) regained latter and won.

Now imagine Sidious, who is much better then Dooku at this and unlike Dooku he knows all of Anakins secrets, all of his weaknesses, he knows him better then he knows himself. He can easily destroy Anakins control over his emotions, thinking...

I really don't see how Anakin could win in any regular fight, taunts aside. Sidious was able to abide Yoda on a small platform in RotS quite well. Seeing as the only people who could reasonably hold up to Sidious in a saber fight would include Yoda and Mace in deed (Anyone else is pure conjecture) I don't get how people think Anakin is amazing.

I bet it has a lot to do with:

a) Force potential. You know, like that one guy had in KotOR that was coming out of his ears. Before he got thrown into a reactor shaft by a space pirate.

b) He's a "LVL 9 JEDI FIGHTER", according to Nick Gillard, who has exactly nothing to do with SW canon at all. Nick Gillard does not write EU material, nor does he supercede GL's views in the characters lightsaber fighting capability. Considering that GL created these characters, his views are paramount when dealing with in-movie versus matches. GL said quite clearly that only Yoda and Mace could comfortably defeat Sidious on even grounds, and Anakin wasn't even mentioned.

And really, what is with the "lightsabers only" matches? Can you ever use lightsabers without drawing on the Force? Wouldn't that be like having a "lightsabers without focusing crystals" battle scenario? We should always include Force mastery in fights because quite frankly, it's impossible to divorce someone's capability when they're always using the Force.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I really don't see how Anakin could win in any regular fight, taunts aside. Sidious was able to abide Yoda on a small platform in RotS quite well. Seeing as the only people who could reasonably hold up to Sidious in a saber fight would include Yoda and Mace in deed (Anyone else is pure conjecture) I don't get how people think Anakin is amazing.

I bet it has a lot to do with:

a) Force potential. You know, like that one guy had in KotOR that was coming out of his ears. Before he got thrown into a reactor shaft by a space pirate.

b) He's a "LVL 9 JEDI FIGHTER", according to Nick Gillard, who has exactly nothing to do with SW canon at all. Nick Gillard does not write EU material, nor does he supercede GL's views in the characters lightsaber fighting capability. Considering that GL created these characters, his views are paramount when dealing with in-movie versus matches. GL said quite clearly that only Yoda and Mace could comfortably defeat Sidious on even grounds, and Anakin wasn't even mentioned.

And really, what is with the "lightsabers only" matches? Can you ever use lightsabers without drawing on the Force? Wouldn't that be like having a "lightsabers without focusing crystals" battle scenario? We should always include Force mastery in fights because quite frankly, it's impossible to divorce someone's capability when they're always using the Force.

i agree completely. everyone seems to think that anakin is just amazing when he really isnt nearly as good as they say he is.

for example anakin in no way would be able to kill seasee kit and agen in about 30 to 40 seconds. he just isnt as good as sidious in lightsaber combat or with the force. i dont understand how people cant or refuse to see this

Anakin is amazing for the simple fact that he wtfpwned one of the greatest jedi in the 25,000 year old history. Dooku was no slouch.. He would be able to give Sidious a good lightsaber battle. However, he is not on Sidious' level in saber combat, nor force mastery.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Anakin is amazing for the simple fact that he wtfpwned one of the greatest jedi in the 25,000 year old history. Dooku was no slouch.. He would be able to give Sidious a good lightsaber battle. However, he is not on Sidious' level in saber combat, nor force mastery.

Where did you see him "wtfpwning" Dooku ?

Holy shit. I still can't believe that people are seriously ignorant enough to watch RotS and still come up with the notion that Anakin "destroyed" or "owned" or "demolished" Dooku.

Dooku completely dominated the fight. He completely tooled Anakin and Obi-Wan when they were fighting together. I mean...really...force choking Obi-Wan and, while doing so, flooring Anakin with a backward kick when Anakin was trying to attack him from behind ? Parrying an attack coming from both simultaneously with one hand ? How much more superiority can somebody show ?

And yes. Anakin defeated him. Again I may point out that Dooku was commanded by Sidious to take Obi-Wan out and get capture by Anakin. This is, despite of claims to the contrary, not overwritten by Lucas statement in the commentary. Sidious was testing Anakin there, yes. But he didn't want to test if Anakin would be able to defeat Dooku in actual confrontation because he knew how powerful Anakin was. Instead he wanted to see if Anakin would go so far to kill an already disarmed opponent. He wanted to know if Anakin was ready to put his personal emotions over the rules of the Jedi. And Anakin did so by killing Dooku.

So we have two factors in this particular fight:
a) Anakin utilizing the Dark Side to make him stronger
b) Dooku definetly holding back when dealing with Anakin alone

I've said this often enough but I'll say it once more. We know that Dooku is capable of using force lightning with one hand even in the middle of a fight. Why didn't he use force lightning against Anakin once he had dealed with Obi-Wan during their fencing action ? Because he couldn't ? Hardly. Because he was commanded not to hurt Anakin ? Probably yes.

So I still don't get what's so impressive about this fight. We saw that Anakin wasn't able to take Kenobi out. Fact. I don't know why we have to construct some nonsense like "Oh. Anakin in that fight was temporarily confused, you know..." when it's pretty obvious that the guy was simply overestimating his own abilities.

1. What I got was from the ROTS novel.
2. If you're going the "he let him beat him" route, save it. I believe Sidious told Dooku that if by some chance Anakin overpowered him, he'd step in and stop it, so Dooku was fighting for his life, accordig to the ROTS novel.

Yeah, you could make the argument for Dooku holding back...until other factors state Dooku stops holding back when he realizes the absolute danger he's in. We know full well Anakin>Dooku in ability and power.

That said, Palpatine would slaughter Anakin. OH, and Janus? Lucas said nothing about 'cleanly defeating' on even ground. He said Yoda and Mace were the only two people who could compete with Palpatine, that's it.

i dont agree with this but it is a possibility since you guys want to go off the "at first he wasnt trying to kill anakin but then he decided to" ,ok so

dooku starts fighting his hardest after getting into a position that he cant recover from, from when he was just testing anakin.

if that doesnt make sense this will. if you have dooku fighting his hardest against anakin fighting his hardest fro,m the very beginning dooku would beat anakin for the reasons that bobarad said

Anakin is actually underestimated. Thier was a old thread were people were saying Depa Billaba would pwn Anakin and tool him. He's Top 3 in the Jedi order . Would have been the youngest master ever. His power would have soon passe everyones in the order. Anakin is sold short alot. Yes Sidious would beat him but it would not be a curbstomp. He would be a decent fight at worst.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. What I got was from the ROTS novel.

Which descripes an enterily different fighting scene meaning that it's totally useless.

2. If you're going the "he let him beat him" route, save it. I believe Sidious told Dooku that if by some chance Anakin overpowered him, he'd step in and stop it, so Dooku was fighting for his life, accordig to the ROTS novel.

No. I'm pretty sure that Dooku didn't want to lose his hands there on the spot. And what novel did you read ? The plan that Sidious gave to Dooku was that Dooku should kill Obi-Wan and then let Anakin capture him. Sidious didn't want to step in and stop it, he said he would grant Dooku amnesty once the Count was captured and brought before the Supreme Court. That's what he told Dooku. So Dooku wasn't fighting for his life in that situation. He thought that his life wasn't in danger since he thought Anakin would act according to the Jedi Code (capture him instead of killing him).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, you could make the argument for Dooku holding back...until other factors state Dooku stops holding back when he realizes the absolute danger he's in. We know full well Anakin>Dooku in ability and power.

Oh this is great, Lightsnake. You're again referring to the RotS novel which descripes an entirely different scenario. Dooku in the novel decides to stop holding back when Obi-Wan and Anakin are coming close to kill or badly injure him multiple times. Where did that happen in the movie ? In fact, Dooku looked much better against Kenobi and Anakin combined, than against Anakin alone.
And we know full well that Anakin > Dooku in ability in power ? Wow. Where ? Where did demonstrate Anakin force mastery on the level of Count Dooku ? When he was completely inable to force push Obi-Wan ? The guy Dooku completely manhandled using the force ? Impressive.
Saber ability ? Can you remind me where Anakin managed to survive duels with Mace Windu, Yoda or Jedi like Tholme + Sora Bulq / Obi-Wan + Anakin teaming up against him ? I must have missed that.

That said, Palpatine would slaughter Anakin.

Finally something I can agree with.

Except for the fact that Anakin "in the zone" Skywalker became superior to Dooku in saber combat once he touched the dark side. He was better, stronger, faster. Should I give you a description of the fight from the novel, which basically describes what Dooku is thinking when Anakin is attacking him?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except for the fact that Anakin "in the zone" Skywalker became superior to Dooku in saber combat once he touched the dark side. He was better, stronger, faster. Should I give you a description of the fight from the novel, which basically describes what Dooku is thinking when Anakin is attacking him?

Oh. You mean that description which has Dooku thinking his wrist will soon brake because of Anakin's brutal Djem So onslaught, when the movie shows him easily parrying Anakin's swings one-handed ?

Does that kick-ass fighting description also offer an explanation while Count "I used to fry people with force lightning while dueling them" Dooku didn't just f*ck up Anakin with his superior force mastery ? Does it offer an explanation why he was even taunting Anakin to use the Dark Side (his "full power"😉 instead of dealing with an - without the Dark Side - inferior opponent ? Does it answer the question why Dooku, instead of kicking Anakin around while force choking Obi-Wan, didn't simply move his lightsaber backwards in a stabbing motion right into Anakin who, obviously, didn't expect any defense from the Sith Lord ? Wait...I actually did read that novel and it doesn't answer the questions.

Because it doesn't make any sense, unless you want to tell me that Anakin in his "zone" suddenly gains additional power which alone trumps that of Kenobi because, as we saw, even together they weren't able to overpower Dooku. Which wouldn't make sense because Anakin should have totally owned Kenobi if that was the case.

Sidious said Anakin "was far younger and more powerful". thier is your explanation.