Anakin (ROTS) v. Sidious (ROTS)

Started by Lightsnake10 pages
Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Which descripes an enterily different fighting scene meaning that it's totally useless.

I'm sorry, Nai. I thought we were referencing Star Wars canon. It totally slipped my mind that when we debate, it immediately takes upon the semblance of what you do and don't decide to be valid, it won't happen again.
Now, regarding your point, even if I referred to the novelization at the time, there's still the visual dictionary to consider-what's the excuse there, I have to wonder?


No. I'm pretty sure that Dooku didn't want to lose his hands there on the spot. And what novel did you read ? The plan that Sidious gave to Dooku was that Dooku should kill Obi-Wan and then let Anakin capture him. Sidious didn't want to step in and stop it, he said he would grant Dooku amnesty once the Count was captured and brought before the Supreme Court. That's what he told Dooku. So Dooku wasn't fighting for his life in that situation. He thought that his life wasn't in danger since he thought Anakin would act according to the Jedi Code (capture him instead of killing him).

Which is false as when Dooku provokes Anakin into his anger, Dooku realizes Anakin is far too powerful for him (ROTS visual dictionary being the source for that since we've decided the novelization can't be used here)


Oh this is great, Lightsnake. You're again referring to the RotS novel which descripes an entirely different scenario. Dooku in the novel decides to stop holding back when Obi-Wan and Anakin are coming close to kill or badly injure him multiple times.

I suppose we can also neglect that as pointed out above, I'm not referencing the ROTS novelization

And we know full well that Anakin > Dooku in ability in power ? Wow. Where ? Where did demonstrate Anakin force mastery on the level of Count Dooku ? When he was completely inable to force push Obi-Wan ? The guy Dooku completely manhandled using the force ? Impressive.

Exceptional how we compare one single instance as some sort of proof Anakin ranks below Dooku in power and ability, when about three sources state that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku.
I'll, in fact, use a direct quote after Dooku has provoked Anakin: "Dooku fought for his life."
Now, a question or two: At which point did Dooku collapse a building?
Was Dooku hallucinating when he realizes Anakin is more powerful than he is? Is Mace incorrect when he says Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi alive?

Oh, and some of Anakin's more impressive feats with the force: Forcing a homicidal, insane Gen'Dai to do what he wants.
Using the force, he hurls an escape pod into the sun.
I'm sure there are more but at th moment, I lack the inclination to start looking through my books


Saber ability ? Can you remind me where Anakin managed to survive duels with Mace Windu, Yoda or Jedi like Tholme + Sora Bulq / Obi-Wan + Anakin teaming up against him ? I must have missed that.

You must've missed where Anakin has fought precisely none of them and killed the man who did survive said duels. Though, I suppose we can also point out Anakin defeating Durge with a combination of saber and force abilities, Cin Drallig with several other opponents simultaneously...and made Dooku realize to quote the visual dictionary that "Anakin Skywalker is more powerful than he had imagined."

Whoops.

And notice Anakin wasn't fighting at his best when Obi-wan and he were fighting in conjunction. When Dooku provokes him, it's a different story.

And in the very movie Palpatine says Anakin is "Younger and more powerful."

Or is this just another reference to 'political power' that seems to saturate Star Wars lore when it comes to characters we don't want to admit are better than we think they are?

kiddo44 Senior Member

Originally posted by Janus Marius

b) He's a "LVL 9 JEDI FIGHTER", according to Nick Gillard, who has exactly nothing to do with SW canon at all. Nick Gillard does not write EU material, nor does he supercede GL's views in the characters lightsaber fighting capability. Considering that GL created these characters, his views are paramount when dealing with in-movie versus matches. GL said quite clearly that only Yoda and Mace could comfortably defeat Sidious on even grounds, and Anakin wasn't even mentioned.

This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.

And the other quote from Lucas your talking about, "You have to be Yoda and Mace to hang with Sidious, Anakin could have beat him."

And Nic Gillard is not Cannon, WTF?

Gideon Restricted
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Or is this just another reference to 'political power' that seems to saturate Star Wars lore when it comes to characters we don't want to admit are better than we think they are?

No.

That applies only to Sidious. No one feels the need to reference political power with Anakin. They just hate him. 😛

Darth Sexy Restricted

Originally posted by kiddo44
This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was [B]AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.

And the other quote from Lucas your talking about, "You have to be Yoda and Mace to hang with Sidious, Anakin could have beat him."

And Nic Gillard is not Cannon, WTF? [/B]

WTF are you talking about? Why would you go and bullshit about two quotes that we are ALL very familiar with.

kiddo44 Senior Member

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
WTF are you talking about? Why would you go and bullshit about two quotes that we are ALL very familiar with.

WTF are you talking about?? Did you even read what he said?

Faunus Boss

Originally posted by kiddo44
This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.
Please do so.

And the other quote from Lucas your talking about, "You have to be Yoda and Mace to hang with Sidious, Anakin could have beat him."
No, he didn't. Don't make stuff up and expect people to take you seriously.

And Nic Gillard is not Cannon, WTF?
No, Nick Gillard's word has no canonical value whatsoever. He choreographs the fights, he doesn't decide who's better than who.

Janus Marius Plo Koon Rulez!

kiddo, you're on crack. I'm going to ignore what you posted because I think you honestly don't know what you're talking about.

LS, I seem to recall this in particular from a certain Leland Chee, whom you used to hold high above esteemed sources since he DEFINES SW canon:

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."

Here the virtual Arca Jeth of the Sw canon world indicates that the movies are 100% paramount and everything else is basically a potentially marred or flawed representation of such. So when you cite the Visual Dictionary, or the RotS novel, or some random comic book action, you cite inherently flawed material. If you truly want to decide the motives, actions, abilities and such of the movie characters, you must first and foremost turn to the movies and use those sources exclusively. Additional EU material may be taken as just that- additional, but the material itself is suspect to have some embellishment, distorion, or artistic license. In that case and in the case of our debates, those sources become suspect and not grounds for final decisions. It's the same reason why we don't cite interpretation books on the Bible as being superior or more accurate than the Bible itself.

You should note that even in G-canon, the highest tier, so-to-speak, we have to learn to differentiate between what is the highest of those sources, because they include novelizations, plays, scripts, etc. Even the official RotS script I have a copy of reflects something we don't see in the movies:

And in the very movie Palpatine says Anakin is "Younger and more powerful."

Or is this just another reference to 'political power' that seems to saturate Star Wars lore when it comes to characters we don't want to admit are better than we think they are?

I'm sorry. Did I miss the part where you actually substantiated how Anakin is more powerful in overall combat ability in this instance, or am I to accept it as true because you asserted it? I suppose Sidious said Anakin would become "more powerful than either of us" to Yoda. zOMFG! He can defeat both of them simultaneously while having sex with Padme!

You don't expect that to actually convince Nai or myself, do you? No, that's for the benefit of others who are easily swayed.

Manslayer Restricted

Originally posted by kiddo44
This is all completly wrong. Geroge Lucas said flat out in Rolling Stone in 2005, Anakin of ROTS was [B]AS strong as Sidious in ROTS. I can give you the quote.

[/B]

Strong as palpatine? In what sense? I read that quote. It occurs to me that he could be referring to force potential which is precisely what anakin lost after getting burned

Lucas himself already stated to contend with sidious you have to be on the level as mace or yoda and IF lucas was referring to anakins strength in the force then he would be contradicting himself

Light_Sith Restricted

Anakin/Vader never looks anywhere near as strong as Sidious at any time.

He also manages to lose 5 limbs in the movies.

Sidious would win in less than 10 seconds.

Manslayer Restricted

I hope your not nebaris

Lightsnake Senior Member

Originally posted by Janus Marius
kiddo, you're on crack. I'm going to ignore what you posted because I think you honestly don't know what you're talking about.

LS, I seem to recall this in particular from a certain Leland Chee, whom you used to hold high above esteemed sources since he DEFINES SW canon:

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films. [b]Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."

Here the virtual Arca Jeth of the Sw canon world indicates that the movies are 100% paramount and everything else is basically a potentially marred or flawed representation of such.


Considering the novelizations haven't been used as a source here, Janus, I don't really see your point here.

So when you cite the Visual Dictionary, or the RotS novel, or some random comic book action, you cite inherently flawed material.

Mmm. Right. You'll have to start explaining how the visual dictionary is flawed when there are absolutely zero contradictions to the movie. In fact, it shows screenshots of the movie and elaborates. In fact, the only thing that seems to make it fallible in this case, is your opinion being contradictory to it.

If you truly want to decide the motives, actions, abilities and such of the movie characters, you must first and foremost turn to the movies and use those sources exclusively.
Additional EU material may be taken as just that- additional, but the material itself is suspect to have some embellishment, distorion, or artistic license. In that case and in the case of our debates, those sources become suspect and not grounds for final decisions. It's the same reason why we don't cite interpretation books on the Bible as being superior or more accurate than the Bible itself.

I'm wondering just where you're getting this from when Chee himself said that thoughts, narration and scenes that take place 'off screen' in the novelizations would be considered G-canon.


You should note that even in G-canon, the highest tier, so-to-speak, we have to learn to differentiate between what is the highest of those sources, because they include novelizations, plays, scripts, etc. Even the official RotS script I have a copy of reflects something we don't see in the movies:


Yes, we know. What happens in the movie, etc etc etc. However, according to Chee, there are things that can still be considered of G-canon from the script and novelization, among which being things that happen offscreen, narration and the aforementioned. Such as Mace's little pep talk to Obi-wan, for instance


I'm sorry. Did I miss the part where you actually substantiated how Anakin is more powerful in overall combat ability in this instance, or am I to accept it as true because you asserted it? I suppose Sidious said Anakin would become "more powerful than either of us" to Yoda. zOMFG! He can defeat both of them simultaneously while having sex with Padme!

Considering according to Lucas, Anakin would've been twice as powerful as Palpatine if he reached his potential, I wouldn't be surprised if he could.

However, "Will become." Meaning 'will' in the future. Meaning he's not more powerful. In ROTS, Palpatine gains Vader as an apprentice very shortly after Dooku's death. He says the Apprentice he gains 'soon' ill be younger and more powerful.

Oh, and that was in reference to Force powers and actual ability, as substantiated in a few other spots. While they may be taken with a grain of salt, they aren't suddenly invalid because your opinion contradicts them.


You don't expect that to actually convince Nai or myself, do you? No, that's for the benefit of others who are easily swayed. [/B]

By all means, let Nai keep posting. same for you.

Darth Sexy Restricted

I really don't understand the problem here. Sidious is testing Anakin using DOoku, which is why Dooku is goading Anakin to use the dark side. When Anakin starts using the dark side, Dooku is fighting for his life. And all of this without the canon argument. Everytime it seems that something is not canon or canon can be interpreted in many ways, etc. Yes, Anakin becomes superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat. I'd like to know why that's so hard to believe, especially after Anakin's powers DID double within 2-3 years.

Gideon Restricted

Some people here seem to be basing this on the conclusion that Darth Sidious was going to sacrifice Count Dooku anyway for Anakin, but that necessarily isn't so. That was what the test was there for: to test Anakin's own level of power and whether or not he could be turned.

I mean, in Rise of Darth Vader, Sidious makes it bluntly clear to Anakin when he tells him this: "If Tyranus had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

Palpatine just doesn't care about how strong Anakin will be. It's also how strong Anakin happened to be at the time.

Lightsnake Senior Member

I'm also rather uncertain why Palpatine would want to sacrifice a perfectly competent and powerful Apprentice for Anakin if Anakin wasn't already Tyranus's better

Gideon Restricted
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm also rather uncertain why Palpatine would want to sacrifice a perfectly competent and powerful Apprentice for Anakin if Anakin wasn't already Tyranus's better

Indeed. Especially when one takes into account that Tyranus had experience and knowledge (and not just pertaining to the Force) that Anakin didn't, and - unlike Anakin - Tyranus was completely within Sidious's thrall and was terrified of him.

kiddo44 Senior Member
Originally posted by Faunus
[B]Please do so.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" -- George Lucas, Rolling Stone 2005

Do you know what from then on means Janus?

No, he didn't. Don't make stuff up and expect people to take you seriously.
No thats excatly his quote, its in the Making of ROTS book, when Lucas is talking about the Sidious/Mace fight go look it up.

No, Nick Gillard's word has no canonical value whatsoever. He choreographs the fights, he doesn't decide who's better than who.
Gillard is of the movies, of course its canon, show me something where it says specifically that Gillard is not canon.

Darth Sexy Restricted

Originally posted by kiddo44
"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" -- George Lucas, Rolling Stone 2005

Do you know what from then on means Janus?

No thats excatly his quote, its in the Making of ROTS book, when Lucas is talking about the Sidious/Mace fight go look it up.

Gillard is of the movies, of course its canon, show me something where it says specifically that Gillard is not canon.

Except the quote in question(not really because you're an idiot) is talking about Luke and has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you mentioned initially.

Faunus Boss

Originally posted by kiddo44
"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up.From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor" -- George Lucas, Rolling Stone 2005

"somebody who would be more powerful than he was"

Do you know what "would be" means -insertrandomname-?

Do you know what from then on means Janus?
I'm Faunus. If you look at who and what you're replying to you might make a little more sense. Maybe.

No thats excatly his quote, its in the Making of ROTS book, when Lucas is talking about the Sidious/Mace fight go look it up.
For one, I've actually read said passage, so I know for a fact that I'm right, and that you're deliberately twisting information to give some strength to your argument. Second, the burden of proof is on you. You brought up the source, I disputed it, and now the onus is on you to back your original claim. If you can't, drop it and concede.

Gillard is of the movies, of course its canon,
WTF are you talking about? Just because he's involved in the movie doesn't mean his word has any weight. Following your logic, Ewan McGregor could say that Obi-Wan is the best duelist in the saga and it'd be "canon," because he's "of the movies."

show me something where it says specifically that Gillard is not canon.
Again burden of proof. And I never don't have to prove a negative. You brought the "source" up, so cut the crap and try to validate it, or concede the point.

Gideon Restricted

"somebody who would be more powerful than he was"

Do you know what "would be" means -insertrandomname-?

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor."

As much as I hate to argue this point, such is my loyalty to canon. This quote seems to indicate that Anakin is as strong as the Emperor, his equal. Not weaker. Not stronger. The Emperor wanted someone who could be stronger than he was.

There's a difference between being someone's equal and someone's superior.

That said, if this is the case, if he is as strong as Palpatine, then he is most decidedly Dooku's absolute superior.

Darth Sexy Restricted

People misunderstand that quote a lot. Him being as strong as the emperor doesn't mean that he could take him or even stalemate him at his peak(ROTS). It means that he has the raw abilities and potential to take be equal to Sidious, when he masters the force and saber combat, and at his peak, he would be twice as powerful as Sidious. It in NO way means he's actually equal to Sidious.