Anakin (ROTS) v. Sidious (ROTS)

LMAO, you bring the guy's little green sexy time partner into this and it's war! Anyway Faunus, I hardly care enough about this argument to reply to it quote by quote like everyone here seems so fond of doing, so I'm gonna break this down a little.

Your arguments for Dooku's supposed superiority over Obi-Wan in the force are:

1. That he 'force spanked' him twice in their duel.

From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.

Officially owned.

2. That he's able to force dominate force users.

Clearly you're quite new to the whole process of debating, and clearly you've never quite realised that when arguing a point, you need to 100% provide valid explanations for said point. You haven't done this, you need to substantiate exactly what force dominating force users requires, and prove that it's beyond what Obi-Wan can do. Until then, you have no argument. Also, might I add just how wonderfully elaborate this argument was; claiming that he's force dominated force users without saying whom he exactly dominated; truly wonderful, great way to gauge Dooku's ability in comparison to Obi-Wan.

Officially owned.

3. That he's been stated as one of the greatest force users of his time and in the entire jedi order.

Same as above; substantiate this, and prove that Obi-Wan wouldn't qualify. Simply saying that Dooku's one of the Jedi's greatest force users and one of the greatest force users of his time, and then claiming that that puts him above Obi-Wan without proving that Obi-Wan doesn't qualify is what you'd call an in-absolute argument.

Officially owned.

Try again.

If Obi-wan can rival Dooku in the force, then the force is clearly a useless tool since he was left in a crumpled heap on the two occasions they fought.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
LMAO, you bring the guy's little green sexy time partner into this and it's war! Anyway Faunus, I hardly care enough about this argument to reply to it quote by quote like everyone here seems so fond of doing, so I'm gonna break this down a little.

Your arguments for Dooku's supposed superiority over Obi-Wan in the force are:

1. That he 'force spanked' him twice in their duel.

From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.[/b]

Officially owned.

Clearly you're quite new to the whole process of debating, and clearly you've never quite realised that when arguing a point, you need to 100% provide valid explanations for said point. You haven't done this, you need to substantiate exactly what force dominating force users requires, and prove that it's beyond what Obi-Wan can do. Until then, you have no argument. Also, might I add just how wonderfully elaborate this argument was; claiming that he's force dominated force users without saying whom he exactly dominated; truly wonderful, great way to gauge Dooku's ability in comparison to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Anyway Faunus, I hardly care enough about this argument

to reply to it quote by quote like everyone here seems so fond of doing, so I'm gonna break this down a little.

Your arguments for Dooku's supposed superiority over Obi-Wan in the force are:

1. That he 'force spanked' him twice in their duel.

[quote]From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade.

So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future?

I guess you really never know what a fanboy might pull out of his ass.

How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.

Officially owned.

You know, I'd like to try something. For every time you've posted this, or some other bullshit statement implying that you've actually managed to get the better of me, I'll post one of the many, many things I actually "officially owned" you on.

In reponse to you claiming Obi-Wan is as powerful as Yoda.

Clearly you're out of your mind. Tossing a non-Force-sensitive - weighing 200 kg tops - is in no way comparable to supporting and levitating a falling, giant crane. Mind you, Yoda deflected a missile weighing several hundred kgs - and falling at tens of thousands of kilometers per hour - and knocked it almost completely off course. Love to see Kenobi try that one.

2. That he's able to force dominate force users.

Clearly you're quite new to the whole process of debating, and clearly you've never quite realised that when arguing a point, you need to 100% provide valid explanations for said point. You haven't done this, you need to substantiate exactly what force dominating force users requires, and prove that it's beyond what Obi-Wan can do.

Also, might I add just how wonderfully elaborate this argument was; claiming that he's force dominated force users without saying whom he exactly dominated; truly wonderful, great way to gauge Dooku's ability in comparison to Obi-Wan.

Sora Bulq: One-handed lightning while he fended off Tholme.
Tholme: Saber-pwns AotC Obi-Wan, then gets the ceiling dropped on his head.
Ventress: Completely fries her at least once for insulting. Note: She was on the verge of literally crushing Obi-Wan's body with the force, and he was helpess to resist.
Quinlan Vos: 1) Toys with him in a duel, then knocks him away with lightning. 2) Vos tries to kill him in his sleep, Dooku picks him up with Force, rips the lightsaber out of his hand, and fries him.

There are many more, including Dooku slaughtering an entire room of people with his power, but I'd need to look them up. Of course, that's hardly necessary since you have no case whatsoever.

Officially owned.

Damn. Stunning argument. I guess Dooku actually did personally fight more than six individual Jedi between the beginning and end of the Clone Wars. No, he must have fought off the entire Order, him being so easily accessible and all. And as for Obi-Wan, I guess you're ignoring all five or six of his encounters with Asajj Ventress - who, I'd like to add, starting literally crushing his ass with the Force in their first meeting - not to mention Dooku's entire cadre of Dark side acolytes. Not enough chances indeed. Obi-Wan had at least as much and probably many more opportunities to attack a Force-sensitive enemy.

3. That he's been stated as one of the greatest force users of his time and in the entire jedi order.

Same as above; substantiate this, and prove that Obi-Wan wouldn't qualify. Simply saying that Dooku's one of the Jedi's greatest force users and one of the greatest force users of his time, and then claiming that that puts him above Obi-Wan without proving that Obi-Wan doesn't qualify is what you'd call an in-absolute argument.

Officially owned.

Obviously the power required to dominate a Force-sensitive varies from being-to-being. Unless you think Obi-Wan would be as hard to overpower as Yoda. Oh wait!

Try again.

Let's sum up this argument shall we? You're "argument" for Obi-Wan being more powerful than Dooku is:

a) He Force-pushed Grievous, so he's as powerful as Yoda.
b) He was "surprised" - despite being held aloft for several seconds and therefore having the perfect chance to retaliate - by Dooku's attacks, so they count for nothing.
c) Oh, and let's not forget that I have to "quantify" the power needed to overwhelm a Jedi/Sith, when Obi-Wan's greatest feat was to topple a non-Force user.

Btw, how exactly would I go about that last one? Would I be measuring it in psi? Kcals? Newtons? I'm not Glentract, you know.

Which is, of course, why you're still here after getting your ass kicked.

Quoting out of context, logical fallacy. It's funny how you can commit fallacy after fallacy and then come back claiming that you kicked my ass (lol, like that's ever gonna happen) when the best you could do was label my points bullshit without providing an explanation as to why.

aka I don't think I can make a defense against the vast majority of points in your last post so I'm going to try and nitpick like an ignorant moron.

LMAO, I nitpick? Right, so rather than replying to your argument in whole but the few relevant points you brought up makes what I'm doing nitpicking? No, nitpicking is what you do when you break up my post into about 12 different quotes. I'd suggest learning how to read before using words you don't understand, Faunus.

I lol'd again.

I'd suggest calming down, we're only on the internet old chap, no need to get too excited, I know I'm interesting to talk to and everything but enough with the giggling like a schoolgirl, it's embarrassing.

Except, again, if Obi-Wan was worth two shits he wouldn't just be concentrating on the blade of one of the most powerful Force-users alive.

While I wouldn't exactly credit Obi-Wan with terrible concentration or a complete lack of the ability to multitask or anything, you need to consider that Dooku was only ever able to force attack Obi-Wan while he was either just out of a saber lock or running and ready to attack. Lots of people can get caught off guard, it doesn't exactly mean that they're not 'worth two shits', otherwise if that's the case, you'd have to consider your boyfriend Yoda or his equal Sidious as not being worth two shits either, seeing as they were both caught off guard by the other as well, and not fully ready for an attack despite being up against arguably the most powerful force user of the time. So yet again, you've failed to prove Dooku's supposed (I know how excited that word makes you, I put it in especially) superiority over Obi-Wan, so try again, and try harder.

. . .

I guess you really never know what a fanboy might pull out of his ass

I'd suggest paying more attention to the movies, the Jedi constantly state that the darkside was diminishing their ability to use the force (precognition specifically, it's why they were so easily taken out by clones).

Again, if he didn't, that's his complete failing as a combatant.

I guess Yoda and Sidious fail too, yes?

And again, the first time, Obi-Wan was just standing there at the edge of the screen, watching as Dooku started to push him.

After just breaking out of a saber lock, and likely expecting Dooku to continue their duel... In short, until you can prove that Obi-Wan would have been perfectly ready to defend a force attack, and was able to apply all of his concentration towards defending the attack, you have no argument.

The second, Obi-Wan charged him.

Exactly, why thank you oh so very much for agreeing here; Obi-Wan was charging Dooku, ready to engage him in saber combat - the perfect opportunity to get caught off guard.

He was also suspended in the air for a few seconds before getting tossed away like a ragdoll. And since he couldn't get out of that grip, he's weaker. Unless you think - and you probably do - that if Obi-Wan was stronger in the Force he'd just let Dooku choke him and smash him into a platform. You know, for fun!

LMAO! Great logic, I guess, in a world full of naked Yodas where humans are able to apply perfect concentration to something while being ferociously choked.

I'll reply to the rest of your bullshit tomorrow or so, because I, unlike you, actually have a life, however I'm sure you would have already replied by then given how much of an internet badass you are, so looking forward to more useless expansion of points, fallacy after fallacy and in short: a nice long essay to reply to, so until then, good day.

Omg, this has to be Noobaris. Nobody is this dumb. This is hilarious..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hm, gee...how would not having your head about you affect your fighting skills or force ability? Hm, grasp on power and how to even fight, perhaps?

I'm still waiting for proof that Anakin was confused, mad or in any other form mentally distorted during his fight with Kenobi in a way that would have made him a weaker enemy for Kenobi than he was for Dooku.

My opinion is that at his best, Anakin>Dooku. He's more powerful in the force and Dooku was unable to beat him.
Share that opinion"? Great. Quit being a condescending ass on par with IKC every post

No. He's obviously not "powerful" enough when we translate "powerful" to "force mastery" to take Dooku out since he himself admits in RoDV that he was "not powerful enough to beat Kenobi" and has Sidious immediatly agree to that statement.
My entire point is that in a open force power contest Dooku would own Anakin's sorry ass. Want to argue that ?

Oh, except the visual guide backs it up, giving evidence of the scene and your opinion that it didn't happen is kind of contradicted. Evidence would be given, then by two seperate sources and unless Obi-wan and Anakin started shouting out what forms they're using? There's not a contradiction

Do you enjoy arguing in circles, Lightsnake ? Because that clearly seems to be the case. Have a look at our discussion (short version) about this topic so far:

Me: "The novel is flawed because it is based on an earlier script than the movie !"
You: "But it's backed up by the visual dictionary !"
Me: "The VD is based on the novel and the very same earlier script. So it's also flawed."
You: "But it's backed up by the novel !!!"

If you want to keep playing the idiot here, you can do that without me.

And no, using the Dark side did not give Anakin enough strength to easily destroy Obi-wan

What ? But it gives him enought strength to easily destroy Dooku who is above Obi-Wan in both force mastery and lightsaber skill ? Interresting interpretation aside from the fact that it doesn't make any sense.

I was also on the impression he had an escape route open when he fought Yoda and ran away when he realized he was beaten.
He also believed himself capable of taking Yoda on both occasions.
Not a one of those would apply in facing a full on Anakin

Wow, Lightsnake. "A full on Anakin" ? What would that be ? Anakin who realized his full potential ? We already know that RotS Anakin / Vader was not powerful enough to take Kenobi and surely not powerful enough to deal with Yoda. Yet why should Dooku fear his power ?

What part of the first part of this statement is absent from my argument?
Why don't you stop making excuses and actual reduce this to simplest forms: Palpatine knew Anakin was more powerful. He says Anakin will eventual become more powerful than himself or Yoda....last I checked, Dooku is not as powerful as those two. When Palpatine talks to Grievous, he simply says the Apprentice he'll gain will be 'younger and more powerful'...not 'will become more powerful than Tyranus ever was.' Unless anakin undergoes a radical increase in power in such a short time...

Oh my. The point is that the term "powerful" doesn't imply the ability to use that power which Anakin clearly DID NOT have as he was in RotS. Hence I was talking about actual force mastery here: The ability to use the amount of power you have. And in this discipline, Dooku exceeds both Obi-Wan and Anakin which is apparent from the movie because he is completely tooling Obi-Wan who is on one level with Anakin in that department (impressive enough when talking about Anakin considering that Obi-Wan had 25 years more actual training compared to him). Yet none of them could have survived a direct force confrontation (and I'm talking about something like what Dooku and Yoda did in AotC before their lightsaber fight) with the Count.

Palpatine is putting the final stages of his plan into action and he's cultivated Anakin for 13 years. The entire point was to test Anakin to see how powerful he'd become. If it was simply that Anakin would later become more powerful, he could easily have had Dooku taken into custody.

Bullshit. Sidious already knew that Anakin would one day be more powerful than any other force user alive at this time. He had the midi-chlorian level (exceeding that of Yoda) and he knew what Anakin had done during the Clone Wars. The point was that he wanted to test if Anakin was ready to join the Dark Side. Therefore he had to see if Anakin was willing to put his own will / emotions over the Jedi Code which he did by killing Dooku.

That Palpatine would toss aside one of the most powerful beings in the history of the SW galaxy in favor of someone who wasn't already more powerful seems a bit suspect

No. It's logical because Palpatine already knew that Anakin would once become more powerful than Dooku and even himself. It's not as if he was only assuming that this would happen or that any speculation was involved on his side. What seems suspect is that Sidious would toss one of the most powerful beings in the history of the SW galaxy aside for testing something he already knew.

He knew from the start how powerful Anakin would become. The entire point of the fight was to prove it once and for all. He tells Anakin that it was a test of the Apprentices' power well enough later...

Lmao. No. Instead of finding out what he already knew, Sidious wanted to find out what he didn't knew: If Anakin would put his own emotions and feelings over the Jedi Code.

If Anakin didn't kill Dooku, Palpatine would've been well and surely in trouble, too.

How exactly ? Do you think anybody would have believed Dooku if he had claimed that Palpatine was a Sith Lord ? For Palpatine in his role as Chancellor it would have been logical to demand that Anakin killed the leader of the CIS who was equipped with Jedi powers and far worse abilities. There was no danger for Sidious there.

Where are you getting that it was simply to test Anakin's willingness to kill Dooku? Is Palpatine not figuring in the fight with his plans at all? Is he supposed to know that Anakin will have Dooku that helpless at swordpoint? That grievously wounded?

Since he commanded Dooku not to hurt Anakin and get capture by him it would have been logical that Anakin would have had Dooku at his mercy at some point. A situation enabling Anakin to kill the Count was part of Sidious' plan because it was the logical consequence of the commands he had given Dooku for that fight.

Perhaos you're confused: I'm not arguing Anakin's force mastery is inferior. I'm saying it won't help Dooku in the least with Anakin focused on him completely-Dooku even realizes nothing he can do makes a difference and expends all his energy just into fighting anakin with his saber.

So now it's harder to fight Anakin for 10 seconds than fighting Yoda for 30 seconds ? Because after doing the latter, Dooku still had enough energy to drop that metal thing on Obi-Wan and Anakin. I don't see why it should have been impossible for him to use the force when fighting Anakin while we see him doing the same thing while being in a saber lock with Yoda. Hardly believeable.

At that particular moment? yes. That Anakin demonstrated far greater ability in the Force than Obi-wan at other points? Undeniable

Dude. A "far greater" ability in the force than Obi-Wan ? He does certain things that Obi-Wan can't do, yes. But he didn't exhibit more force mastery than Obi-Wan in direct confrontation which is the point that matters here.

Or maybe "I'll help you if anything goes wrong."
Please try to give me a source that tells of this plan without defaulting on the EU, Nai, please do. Nowhere in the movie or from Lucas himself is a plan that extends to 'get captured by Anakin' hinted at...Just from watching the movie, you could make the assumption Dooku really meant to take Coruscant and establish a new Order from there and wasn't aware Palpatine had ulterior motives.

I didn't know that you're allowed to limit my perspective here, Lightsnake. As I said before: If you want to play the idiot here, do it without me. Of course the plan is only descriped in the novel - but in contrary to your beloved points it does neither contradict what is shown in the movie (in fact it explains what happens in the movie), nor is it incompatible with what is shown in the movie, nor is it completely illogical considering the rest of the facts we have.

Nai, since when does Obiwan have 25 years on Anakin? I thought they were about 15 years apart in age

Originally posted by Borbarad
I'm still waiting for proof that Anakin was confused, mad or in any other form mentally distorted during his fight with Kenobi in a way that would have made him a weaker enemy for Kenobi than he was for Dooku.

Oh my. The point is that the term "powerful" doesn't imply the ability to [b]use that power which Anakin clearly DID NOT have as he was in RotS. Hence I was talking about actual force mastery here: The ability to use the amount of power you have. And in this discipline, Dooku exceeds both Obi-Wan and Anakin which is apparent from the movie because he is completely tooling Obi-Wan who is on one level with Anakin in that department (impressive enough when talking about Anakin considering that Obi-Wan had 25 years more actual training compared to him). Yet none of them could have survived a direct force confrontation (and I'm talking about something like what Dooku and Yoda did in AotC before their lightsaber fight) with the Count.

Bullshit. Sidious already knew that Anakin would one day be more powerful than any other force user alive at this time. He had the midi-chlorian level (exceeding that of Yoda) and he knew what Anakin had done during the Clone Wars. The point was that he wanted to test if Anakin was ready to join the Dark Side. Therefore he had to see if Anakin was willing to put his own will / emotions over the Jedi Code which he did by killing Dooku.

No. It's logical because Palpatine already knew that Anakin would once become more powerful than Dooku and even himself. It's not as if he was only assuming that this would happen or that any speculation was involved on his side. What seems suspect is that Sidious would toss one of the most powerful beings in the history of the SW galaxy aside for testing something he already knew.

Lmao. No. Instead of finding out what he already knew, Sidious wanted to find out what he didn't knew: If Anakin would put his own emotions and feelings over the Jedi Code.

How exactly ? Do you think anybody would have believed Dooku if he had claimed that Palpatine was a Sith Lord ?

For Palpatine in his role as Chancellor it would have been logical to demand that Anakin killed the leader of the CIS who was equipped with Jedi powers and far worse abilities. There was no danger for Sidious there.

Since he commanded Dooku not to hurt Anakin and get capture by him it would have been logical that Anakin would have had Dooku at his mercy at some point. A situation enabling Anakin to kill the Count was part of Sidious' plan because it was the logical consequence of the commands he had given Dooku for that fight.

So now it's harder to fight Anakin for 10 seconds than fighting Yoda for 30 seconds ? Because after doing the latter, Dooku still had enough energy to drop that metal thing on Obi-Wan and Anakin. I don't see why it should have been impossible for him to use the force when fighting Anakin while we see him doing the same thing while being in a saber lock with Yoda. Hardly believeable.

Dude. A "far greater" ability in the force than Obi-Wan ? He does certain things that Obi-Wan can't do, yes. But he didn't exhibit more force mastery than Obi-Wan in direct confrontation which is the point that matters here.

I didn't know that you're allowed to limit my perspective here, Lightsnake. As I said before: If you want to play the idiot here, do it without me. Of course the plan is only descriped in the novel - but in contrary to your beloved points it does neither contradict what is shown in the movie (in fact it explains what happens in the movie), nor is it incompatible with what is shown in the movie, nor is it completely illogical considering the rest of the facts we have. [/B]

So, Nai, if you want to shun the novel? Go ahead, but at least be consistent, because there's not anything supporting a plan in the movie.
Canonically there is a plan, though, and that's not disputable.

I think there's some miscommunication here. Nai thinks Lightsnake is saying Anakin>Dooku in the force. What I think Lightsnake is saying is that yes, Dooku>Anakin in the force but that little fact didn't help him against Anakin in their fight.

I'll reply to the rest of your bullshit tomorrow or so, because I, unlike you, actually have a life, however I'm sure you would have already replied by then given how much of an internet badass you are, so looking forward to more useless expansion of points, fallacy after fallacy and in short: a nice long essay to reply to, so until then, good day.

Yeah, anyone with half a brain can see that I demolished the first half of your points with minimal difficulty, and it really wouldn't be too hard to do the same to the rest of your post. But whatever, clearly you're not going to reply either way (because we both know you won't be able to do so) and clearly I'm not going to bother making an argument that won't get replied to, so consider this your get out of jail free card; use it wisely!

Originally posted by nmensfinest
[B]Yeah, anyone with half a brain can see that I demolished the first half of your points with minimal difficulty, and it really wouldn't be too hard to do the same to the rest of your post. But whatever, clearly you're not going to reply either way (because we both know you won't be able to do so) and clearly I'm not going to bother making an argument that won't get replied to, so consider this your get out of jail free card; use it wisely!

Already been done. Based on our limited information of the characters, Kenobi has simply demonstrated far more power, that is hurling Grievous into the air a pretty considerable distance at a pretty considerable speed which is beyond anything Dooku is shown to do to my knowledge, so it's simply more logical to consider him the likely more powerful of the two, at least from my standpoint. I'd be perfectly willing to change my mind if you brought some proof to the table, but so far you simply haven't; your only attempts at replying to my points have been twisting the focus of my argument, a logical fallacy (such as highlighting the fact that Grievous is a non force sensitive, and making it out as if that was the focus of my argument, when it clearly wasn't), making unsubstantiated points for Dooku with which no comparison can be formed between the two combatants, and making a point about how Dooku was able to overpower Obi-Wan without giving an explanation as to how that displays force superiority, despite me making a perfectly good case for the contrary. Really dude, you have no argument. I will however apologise for some of the earlier insults (even though you started it lol) and try to keep this civil if you wish to continue.

Yea this is definitely Noobaris. Only he claims to win a debate when he's never won one.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post, because you have no case whatsoever. You throw around the word "fallacy" pretending you know what it actually means, you fail to address or otherwise drop every point you have no argument against, and then try to tell me that I don't respond with any relevance, and yet you still fail to put forth a single shred of proof to back up your argument. Hopefully, your parents can learn something from you, assuming they haven't asked you to run away yet; birth control is their friend.

This made me laugh my ass off. I am so putting this in my profile quotes.

Based on our limited information of the characters, Kenobi has simply demonstrated far more power, that is hurling Grievous into the air a pretty considerable distance at a pretty considerable speed which is beyond anything Dooku is shown to do to my knowledge, so it's simply more logical to consider him the likely more powerful of the two, at least from my standpoint.

This is sily. Throwing Grievious is not the greatest instance of Force using of all time. I appreciate that you preface your remark with "to my knowledge" because this may make things easier for you in life if you keep to that trend. But what it really boils down to is that Obi-Wan is nowhere near as talented nor as masterful of the Force as Dooku or half of the Jedi Council. I mean, if the crux of your argument is Force-pushing a quasi-droid, then Kit Fisto is the mightiest Jedi of all time. In fact, Yoda's mightier than anyone in the entire series because he can force push a Senatorial pod. zOMG!

So unless you can substantiate how Force-pushing Grievious is the following:

1. The hardest thing to do considering that he has no defense against it.

2. Unprecedented.

3. Better than Dooku owning trained Jedi and dark Jedi with the Force, ripping the ceiling apart to crush Yoda in AotC, dropping a crane on Obi-Wan and Anakin who lie helpless in the same movie, Force-spanking Obi-Wan all over the place in their duel without any effort whatsoever.

When you get that far, let us know.

I;m siding with Janus and Faunus completely on that issue, at least.

Obi-wan's good. He's probably the best defensive fighter in the entire Jedi Order, possibly the best Soresu master who ever lived. He's very decent in the Force and in terms of character, he's a total badass, well acted in every incarnation and is generally awesome.

However, in regards to the top tiers, Obi-wan comes up short...his force powers aren't up to the snuff of Palpatine, Dooku, Mace, Yoda, etc.

Agreed. Obi's the Uber Jedi, but not Uber in Force Skillz. In fact, I can safely say that because I know so much about his abilities.

This is sily. Throwing Grievious is not the greatest instance of Force using of all time. I appreciate that you preface your remark with "to my knowledge" because this may make things easier for you in life if you keep to that trend. But what it really boils down to is that Obi-Wan is nowhere near as talented nor as masterful of the Force as Dooku or half of the Jedi Council. I mean, if the crux of your argument is Force-pushing a quasi-droid, then Kit Fisto is the mightiest Jedi of all time. In fact, Yoda's mightier than anyone in the entire series because he can force push a Senatorial pod. zOMG!

It's not just that he force pushed a quasi-droid, it was the speed he hurled him into the air, the power with which he hit the ceiling, the distance he went up into the air, and when taking into account that the attack was performed in a furious combat situation, that the attack really didn't require too much effort, and the fact that gravity was working against him, it's quite clearly a tremendous display of the force, and what's 'sily' is people attempting to downplay it, by pointing out that grievous has no defence to TK. BTW I really don't see what point you're trying to prove with Yoda here given that when it comes to the movies, he pretty much is the man when it comes to the force. Also, could you people please quit the name dropping, I have no idea who the hell Kit Fisto or Assaj Ventress are, so if you have a point to make, try being more elaborate.

So unless you can substantiate how Force-pushing Grievious is the following:

No Janus, the burden of proof is not on me, I was never the one making the claims, I was just simply asking for proof for the claims that were being thrown around, so it's not up to me to substantiate jack.

1. The hardest thing to do considering that he has no defense against it.

2. Unprecedented

I find these comments especially ridiculous given that not only do I technically not have to substantiate jack, but how the hell is it anywhere near necessary to prove that bullsh1t when all that's being discussed is how Obi-Wan stacks up to Dooku in the force? Nobody's making a case for Obi-Wan being the most powerful force user ever here, come on now, pay attention.

3. Better than Dooku owning trained Jedi and dark Jedi with the Force,

Urm, the point I was making earlier that Faunus apparently didn't get was that Jedi -- while they have access to powers such as TK which can be used for many different functions, such as attack -- aren't trained to use the force offensively. This is made especially clear through Yoda's words to Luke in ESB:

YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

Which is why simply pointing out that Dooku has owned trained jedi with the force is not definite in proving that he's superior to Obi-Wan in the force. Try again.

ripping the ceiling apart to crush Yoda in AotC,

LMAO. So Dooku simply rips tiny chunks out of the ceiling, and throws them down at really not too great a speed. This compares... how?

dropping a crane on Obi-Wan and Anakin who lie helpless in the same movie,

Oh wow, so Dooku simply messed up the foundations of that crane, which in turn made the crane begin to fall over to the side. This compares... how?

Force-spanking Obi-Wan all over the place in their duel without any effort whatsoever.

I hear you're a fan of accusing your opposition of using feat wars, so how ironic is it that you're using the very same things yourself. Put these feats into context; how exactly does this feat prove superiority in the force department? Refute this and then get back to me:

From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.