Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quite potentially because Obi-wan is able to hold his own given Anakin's current lack of sanity, control and knowing Anakin's style backwards and forwards and winning in the end due to Anakin's arrogance in combination with the environment. Hardly a matter of what happened with Obi-wan and Dooku.
Again: Fights aren't perfectly linear. Anakin being capable of defeating Tyranus doesn't mean he's capable of defeating Obi-wan in a totally different scenario
This is really great, Lightsnake.
Anakin lacked sanity ? That would affect his force powers or lightsaber skill how exactly ? Irrelevant missdirection.
And the great thing is: Fights aren't perfectly linear ? Wow. So you are telling me that if only a slight change of the circumstances is present, the fight will went an entire different way ? Would that, thinking of Dooku VS Anakin, apply if this had been a fight in which Dooku would have been allowed to hurt or kill Anakin and in which Dooku would have utilized his entire force mastery against Anakin ? No shit, Lightsnake. Why are you even arguing here, if you seem to share my oppinion in general ?
Uh, no. Dooku is described as using all of his energy just trying to holding Anakin off and is still slaughtered like a sheep regardless. Anakin defeats a Dooku describes as using all of his power to fight for his life.
Yes. The novel says so. Evidence to the contrary would be the movie which shows how easily Dooku was capable of dealing with Obi-Wan and Anakin at once when he was allowed to hurt one of them (Obi-Wan). Again I might ask you: Does "using the Dark Side" equate to gaining strength which is above Obi-Wans complete power in addition to Anakin's resources when not going Dark Side ? Because this is, effectively, what you are stating here. But this again would have meant that Anakin should have destroyed Obi-Wan easily.
If Dooku had been aware of the extent of Anakin's power, he would've likely surrendered on the spot.
Urm. Yeah. Like he surrendered on the spot when confronting Yoda and Mace ? I was under the impression that he managed to escape Yoda twice.
The surprise fades pretty damn quickly considering more than a few Jedi go after Anakin with sheer intent to kill. Cin, Jocasta and Serra sure weren't holding back when they went after him. Anakin executing Jurokk in front of the Temple kind of confirmed that it was time to slash first, question later. You overlooked Anakin effortlessly defeating Cin Drallig, by the way.
And you overlooked that Dooku was better than 99,997 % of the PT Jedi Order (with Mace, Yoda and Anakin being the exceptions) so I really don't know what's so special there ? Anakin, fighting with one hand, defeated Cin and a Padawan simultaneously. Dooku owned Tholme and Sora Bulq, two Jedi Masters with one of them being a Vaapad practioner fighting them with one hand and completely demolishing them with his force mastery.
Aside of that you apparently overlooked my entire argument.
Hm, would Palpatine keeps Dooku around if Anakin were less powerful? Let me think abou- yes. He makes it clear to Dooku in Labyrinth of Evil if Anakin isn't strong enough, he's expendable, and that if he 'gets the upper hand', Palpatine will save Dooku.
I can only agree with Faunus: Did you miss the part where Dooku lost his head ? Aside of that: Sidious was completely aware of Anakin's strength since he new everything Anakin did in the last 13 years. Can you please tell me how he should have suggested that Anakin was not strong enough to become his next apprentice and would likely develop into a stronger force user than Dooku and even Sidious himself. Especially since he tells Yoda that this will be the case later ?
since when does age even enter into this? A Jedi of Dooku's power can live another ten-twenty years easily and Palpatine already had a lavish set up plan with Dooku.
You must have forgotten somehow, that Anakin's power had been tested by analyzing his midi-chlorian count which simlply exceeded the scale and even topped that of Yoda. Let me think a second: Would Palpatine sacrifice an 80 year old guy to take the 20 year old guy with the much higher force potential ? Urm. Hard to tell. Different question: Would you prefer a 80 year old witch for having sex because she is likely more experienced in the art of making love than a 20 year old sexy girl ? Hmm. I don't think so.
You're telling me he's going to throw away one of the most powerful Jedi the Order ever produced who got stronger under Palpatine, for an untested boy on an entire assumption ? Do you really think Palpatine would be willing to give up Dooku if Anakin wasn't an already worthy replacement in power and ability?
Palpatine knew already that Anakin would develop into a more powerful force user than Dooku before setting up that little fight. So what ? He didn't want to test Anakin's power but his will to give into his anger. Had Anakin not killed Dooku, Sidious could have switched back to the plan he told Dooku before.
Yes, Nai, considering I've seen the opinions based on what someone in G-canon says. Or is Palpatine aiming for a totally nefarious scheme that requires a lie to General Grievous? Considering there is absolutely no direct motive behind the lie, the context makes it pretty clear Palpatine isn't lying in either scenarios and we have numerous sources offhand saying that Anakin's power>Dooku, including one that was personally reviewed by Lucas, I'd say yeah, it's pretty open and shut, unless you suddenly want to claim they're all invalid in favor of an opinion which not one single piece of official work supports whatsoever.
I'm still asking myself what the F*CK it is that you refuse to get into your head. I'm not arguing actual power here, I'm talking about force mastery. Did Anakin have Dooku's force mastery ? Nope. Otherwise he would have owned Obi-Wan. Power ? Doesn't matter because power needs control to be applied effectively something that Anakin was clearly lacking. Want to argue that ? Take it up with Lucas or the damn movie instead of littering the place with irrelevant missdirections.
i'm sorry, I forget where a single Force Push-that hits Obi-wan harder than it does Anakin- is definitive proof of anything.
Different fights, different scenarios. Anakin is not in control. Obi-wan is. Both are hit and Anakin doesn't hit the ground as hard nor does he stay down as long
Wow, genious. After having argued with the entire time that Anakin lacks force control you come up with the excuse for him not being able to overpower Obi-Wan being his lack of force control ? Holy s...
Oh, right, it must mean there's an elaborate plan in place, not that Dooku isn't shocked that Palpatine is ordering his death. Nope, his loss must've been planned....couldn't possibly be that he's just surprised his master isn't saving him...
Lmao. This is so great. And why is Dooku shocked that Sidious is ordering his death ? Maybe because Sidious told him about his plan which basically said "Get captured by Anakin and I'll give you amnesty later" ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
This is really great, Lightsnake.
Anakin lacked sanity ? That would affect his force powers or lightsaber skill how exactly ? Irrelevant missdirection.
Hm, gee...how would not having your head about you affect your fighting skills or force ability? Hm, grasp on power and how to even fight, perhaps?
And the great thing is: Fights aren't perfectly linear ? Wow. So you are telling me that if only a slight change of the circumstances is present, the fight will went an entire different way ? Would that, thinking of Dooku VS Anakin, apply if this had been a fight in which Dooku would have been allowed to hurt or kill Anakin and in which Dooku would have utilized his entire force mastery against Anakin ? No shit, Lightsnake. Why are you even arguing here, if you seem to share my oppinion in general ?
Yes. The novel says so. Evidence to the contrary would be the movie which shows how easily Dooku was capable of dealing with Obi-Wan and Anakin at once when he was allowed to hurt one of them (Obi-Wan). Again I might ask you: Does "using the Dark Side" equate to gaining strength which is above Obi-Wans complete power in addition to Anakin's resources when not going Dark Side ? Because this is, effectively, what you are stating here. But this again would have meant that Anakin should have destroyed Obi-Wan easily.
And no, using the Dark side did not give Anakin enough strength to easily destroy Obi-wan
Urm. Yeah. Like he surrendered on the spot when confronting Yoda and Mace ? I was under the impression that he managed to escape Yoda twice.
And you overlooked that Dooku was better than 99,997 % of the PT Jedi Order (with Mace, Yoda and Anakin being the exceptions) so I really don't know what's so special there ? Anakin, fighting with one hand, defeated Cin and a Padawan simultaneously. Dooku owned Tholme and Sora Bulq, two Jedi Masters with one of them being a Vaapad practioner fighting them with one hand and completely demolishing them with his force mastery.
I can only agree with Faunus: Did you miss the part where Dooku lost his head ? Aside of that: Sidious was completely aware of Anakin's strength since he new everything Anakin did in the last 13 years. Can you please tell me how he should have suggested that Anakin was not strong enough to become his next apprentice and would likely develop into a stronger force user than Dooku and even Sidious himself. Especially since he tells Yoda that this will be the case later ?
You must have forgotten somehow, that Anakin's power had been tested by analyzing his midi-chlorian count which simlply exceeded the scale and even topped that of Yoda. Let me think a second: Would Palpatine sacrifice an 80 year old guy to take the 20 year old guy with the much higher force potential ? Urm. Hard to tell. Different question: Would you prefer a 80 year old witch for having sex because she is likely more experienced in the art of making love than a 20 year old sexy girl ? Hmm. I don't think so.
That Palpatine would toss aside one of the most powerful beings in the history of the SW galaxy in favor of someone who wasn't already more powerful seems a bit suspect
And congratulations on what might be the most bizarre analogy ever.
Palpatine knew already that Anakin would develop into a more powerful force user than Dooku [b]before setting up that little fight. So what ? He didn't want to test Anakin's power but his will to give into his anger. Had Anakin not killed Dooku, Sidious could have switched back to the plan he told Dooku before.
I'm still asking myself what the F*CK it is that you refuse to get into your head. I'm not arguing actual power here, I'm talking about force mastery. Did Anakin have Dooku's force mastery ? Nope. Otherwise he would have owned Obi-Wan. Power ? Doesn't matter because power needs control to be applied effectively something that Anakin was clearly lacking. Want to argue that ? Take it up with Lucas or the damn movie instead of littering the place with irrelevant missdirections.
Wow, genious. After having argued with the entire time that Anakin lacks force control you come up with the excuse for him not being able to overpower Obi-Wan being his lack of force control ? Holy s...
Lmao. This is so great. And why is Dooku shocked that Sidious is ordering his death ? Maybe because Sidious told him about his plan which basically said "Get captured by Anakin and I'll give you amnesty later" ? [/B]
No joke. From a force ability standpoint, I see no evidence that Dooku is above someone who can hurl Grievous about dozens of feet into the air with telekinesis with a simple hand movement while in the middle of a furious duel. From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.
Originally posted by nmensfinest
No joke. From a force ability standpoint, I see no evidence that Dooku is above someone who can hurl Grievous about dozens of feet into the air with telekinesis with a simple hand movement while in the middle of a furious duel. From what I've seen in this thread, Dooku's supposed superiority is based on him overpowering Obi-Wan with the force twice in their RotS duel. However, what people seem to have ignored is that Dooku was only able to overpower Obi-Wan while they were both saber dueling, and while Obi-Wan was concentrating on Dooku's blade. So really, where exactly is the defence there? How exactly is Obi-Wan supposed to anticipate Dooku attempting such a force manoeuvre when the darkside was preventing him from being able to see into the future? How could Obi-Wan have possible put up a proper defence, let alone one to perfect efficiency? If anything, all it speaks for is a superiority in dueling ability/tactics/concentration, not force strength/mastery.
Well lets see, Dooku has had 60 decades to hone his force abilities.. Dooku is also now a sith lord, meaning he has dark side abilities such as force lightning. He has mastery and control over the force that Obiwan does not possess.. It's obvious.
Well lets see, Dooku has had 60 decades to hone his force abilities..
Wow, great argument. I guess Yoda should have been able to own Palpatine with ease then... Oh wait, that's not what happened, they stalemated... Now just go and ignore factors such as force strength and talent, why don't you?
Dooku is also now a sith lord, meaning he has dark side abilities such as force lightning.
Wow, great argument. I guess Palpatine should have been able to own Yoda with ease then... Oh wait, that's not what happened, they stalemated... Now just go and ignore factors such as force power and control, why don't you?
He has mastery and control over the force that Obiwan does not possess.. It's obvious.
'Cause of his experience and the fact that he can use the darkside? Lol...
More like the opposite's obvious given that Obi-Wan's force displays rival those of Yoda, who's quite clearly on a whole different level to Dooku.
Originally posted by nmensfinest ]Wow, great argument. I guess Yoda should have been able to own Palpatine with ease then... Oh wait, that's not what happened, they stalemated... Now just go and ignore factors such as force strength and talent, why don't you?
'Cause of his experience and the fact that he can use the darkside? Lol...
More like the opposite's obvious given that Obi-Wan's force displays rival those of Yoda, who's quite clearly on a whole different level to Dooku. [/B]
Originally posted by nmensfinestWell for starters, he's often referred to as one of the mightiest Force-users of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the Order. Considering said Order produced people like Revan, Ulic, and Yoda himself, that's pretty damn impressive. Now, considering you haven't yet shown when Obi-Wan has completely dominated a Force-user with his power, I'll give you some more time before going deeper into this. Not that I should have to, but I guess I shouldn't be suprised.
Edit: BTW, what proof is there exactly for Obi-Wan's supposed inferiority to Dooku in the force?
Well for starters, he's often referred to as one of the mightiest Force-users of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the Order. Considering said Order produced people like Revan, Ulic, and Yoda himself, that's pretty damn impressive.
That's great. However clearly you've forgotten that Obi-Wan's displays of force telekinesis are arguably on par with Yoda's himself (for example when Yoda seemingly puts all his effort into preventing the fall of the giant pillar in AotC at the end of his duel with Obi-Wan; Obi-Wan's ability to hurl Grievous into the air is arguably greater, and required less effort), the guy who was in a whole different league to Count Dooku, and the guy who may possibly have possessed the greatest potential int he order before Anakin if we're going to base our knowledge on the Jedi order's archives and Obi-Wan's implications in TPM ("his midi-chlorian count is off the charts, even greater than Yoda's" [roughly]). So is it really that much of a stretch to assume those same things for Obi-Wan?
Now, considering you haven't yet shown when Obi-Wan has completely dominated a Force-user with his power, I'll give you some more time before going deeper into this. Not that I should have to, but I guess I shouldn't be suprised.
Since when is dominating force users the standard to beat? In case you didn't know, jedi aren't exactly instructed to use the force offensively (exception being telekinesis to my knowledge), and it's not exactly like force users can't get caught off guard by surprise force attacks. There were also far less darksiders that Obi-Wan could have used his powers against, whereas thousands of Jedi for Count Dooku. Either way I was asking for actual proof Of Dooku being above Obi-Wan in the force, so if you really wish to do so it's up to you to substantiate the power required to dominate a force user.
Originally posted by nmensfinestMore like the opposite's obvious given that Obi-Wan's force displays rival those of Yoda, who's quite clearly on a whole different level to Dooku.
Wow, never heard that one before talk about being a Kenobi fanboy. You think Kenobi and Dooku are close in the force? 😂 There not even close, you clearly don't much about Dooku if you think that. Now Yoda and Dooku are close, obviously, we have seen this, Yoda is stronger but it is a close match.
Originally posted by Faunus
Well for starters, he's often referred to as one of the mightiest Force-users of his era, and among the most powerful Jedi ever produced by the Order. Considering said Order produced people like Revan, Ulic, and Yoda himself, that's pretty damn impressive. Now, considering you haven't yet shown when Obi-Wan has completely dominated a Force-user with his power, I'll give you some more time before going deeper into this. Not that I should have to, but I guess I shouldn't be suprised.
revan and ullic were from a different order cause remember kotor 2 was all about haveing the exile start the order again
Originally posted by nmensfinestClearly you're out of your mind. Tossing a non-Force-sensitive - weighing 200 kg tops - is in no way comparable to supporting and levitating a falling, giant crane. Mind you, Yoda deflected a missile weighing several hundred kgs - and falling at tens of thousands of kilometers per hour - and knocked it almost completely off course. Love to see Kenobi try that one.
That's great. However clearly you've forgotten that Obi-Wan's displays of force telekinesis are arguably on par with Yoda's himself
(for example when Yoda seemingly puts all his effort into preventing the fall of the giant pillar in AotC at the end of his duel with Obi-Wan;
Obi-Wan's ability to hurl Grievous into the air is arguably greater, and required less effort),This is the second most ridiculous assertion I've seen this post. Congrats.
and the guy who may possibly have possessed the greatest potential int he order before AnakinAnd the guy you're comparing Obi-Wan's Force power to. Nice. And note that the guy who you're saying is in a "different league" in comparison to Dooku - bullshit, by the way - managed to go ahead and almost beat Sidious, while Obi-Wan was deemed too weak. The evidence just keeps rolling in. . .
So is it really that much of a stretch to assume those same things for Obi-Wan?Oh, God yes.
Since when is dominating force users the standard to beat?Since you started using Obi-Wan's pwnage of a non-sensitive as evidence for his superiority to Dooku, who in case you hadn't noticed, has utterly dominated numerous Force-users of renown with his power.
In case you didn't know, jedi aren't exactly instructed to use the force offensively (exception being telekinesis to my knowledge),Really? I hadn't noticed. I guess that whole thing about Obi-Wan tossing away Grievous like a toy - you know, the thing you're basing your argument on - isn't offensive use of telekinesis. Oh wait!
You should really read your posts before clicking "Submit"; putting down stuff in favor of my argument isn't going to get you very far.
and it's not exactly like force users can't get caught off guard by surprise force attacks.The "surprise" being when Obi-Wan stands there, looking straight at Dooku while he throws out his hand and puts him on his ass? Or when he charged him and ended up getting thrown across the room?
There were also far less darksiders that Obi-Wan could have used his powers against, whereas thousands of Jedi for Count Dooku.Damn. Stunning argument. I guess Dooku actually did personally fight more than six individual Jedi between the beginning and end of the Clone Wars. No, he must have fought off the entire Order, him being so easily accessible and all. And as for Obi-Wan, I guess you're ignoring all five or six of his encounters with Asajj Ventress - who, I'd like to add, starting literally crushing his ass with the Force in their first meeting - not to mention Dooku's entire cadre of Dark side acolytes. Not enough chances indeed. Obi-Wan had at least as much and probably many more opportunities to attack a Force-sensitive enemy.
Either way I was asking for actual proof Of Dooku being above Obi-Wan in the force, so if you really wish to do so it's up to you to substantiate the power required to dominate a force user.Obviously the power required to dominate a Force-sensitive varies from being-to-being. Unless you think Obi-Wan would be as hard to overpower as Yoda. Oh wait!
To be honest, I've already wasted far too much time, energy, and battery life on you and your "argument," which gets more and more pathetic by the sentence. So considering you're the one here trying to tell me that Obi-Wan is as powerful as Yoda (WTF?) and that the guy who got Force-spanked twice in thirty seconds is somehow more powerful than the man who did the spanking, I'd say you're an idiot, we're talking about a different saga, or you happen to be one of the most blatanty biased fanboys here.
And note that the guy who you're saying is in a "different league" in comparison to Dooku - bullshit, by the way - managed to go ahead and almost beat Sidious, while Obi-Wan was deemed too weak. The evidence just keeps rolling in.
Faunus, are you telling me that Yoda and Dooku are in the same league?