Nope. Dooku got two hits in - one in the very beginning on Yoda's abdomen and another on his shoulder. And Yoda only levitated the lady for a few seconds before lowering her to the ground. Of course, DR basically makes Yoda a Force God anyway, having him deflect a missile fired from orbit, but it's well deserved glory.
Didn't Yoda send Dooku packing while using the force to keep a fat women from falling out of a window?
Yoda sojourned to Vjun to confront Count Dooku, who had professed to the Jedi Council that he was going to abandon his Sith ways and return to the Jedi; the Council suspected that it was a trap, and so did Yoda -- yet he cared so much for Dooku that he willingly ventured into it. Vjun functioned as a CIS stronghold and -- more importantly -- it was steeped in the dark side of the Force, allowing Dooku to floor Asajj Ventress just by lifting a finger.
They had their confrontation, and putting Dooku and Yoda in an emotional struggle. Finally, Dooku squashed his conflict and tossed "the fat woman" out of a window -- and he attacked Yoda as Yoda attempted to rescue her. He caught her with the Force (while evading Dooku's attacks), and spilled her gently onto the cobblestones. Yoda then turned to Dooku and told him that "Wish to hurt you, I do not!", and Dooku confessed that he would "enjoy" killing Yoda.
They fight, and Yoda forces Dooku to retreat, and Dooku a missile from space, telling Yoda that "there was always a chance [Yoda]" could overpower him even with his advantages on Vjun.
So, what do we know from Dark Rendezvous? Yoda and Dooku aren't really that close in power. Ventress even tries to persuade Dooku to attack Darth Sidious from Vjun -- using dark side power and his CIS armies -- but Dooku was too afraid to (he also expressed the same fear in Labyrinth of Evil).
A Vjun-empowered Dooku still isn't on Yoda's level.
Dooku noted that he knew Ataru inside and out, as his master Yoda used it and his own apprentice used it to the highest degree. While I grant that Yoda would win more likely than not, he's not going to curbstomp him either.
I'm sorry Janus, but this is wrong. If we assume that Yoda goes into this fight with the intent to kill (like he did with Sidious), he will butcher Dooku.
I can't really understand how Yoda can flat out struggle with stopping the fall of a crane and pushing it to the side, and face major difficulty throwing Senate Pods and minor rubble that really don't move at too great a speed, yet do the stuff that he does in the EU (the thing that Faunus just mentioned, and I heard he's lifted entire mountains and ships the size of small cities). It sounds way too inconsistent with primary movie material, imo.
To be fair, Yoda did have to fight gravity on both occasions with the pods and the column. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting that he'd pwn Dooku in a Force fight, given the defensive nature of most Jedi techniques, whereas Dooku has access to Force powers designed to attack and kill.
Essentially, Yoda's have to Force push him into shit, hurl debris at him, or manage to deflect one of his own technique's onto him. He is stronger in the Force than Dooku, but his techniques alone wouldn't allow for a massive pwnage level.
Yoda, however, would defeat Dooku pretty comfortably in an all out fight. Mace wouldn't be able to defeat him either, since Vaapad's mystical properties don't have the same effect on him.
Only Sidious can go toe-to-toe with Yoda with a good chance of victory in the PT.
Originally posted by Longinus
Did Dooku and Mace have multiple encounters in the EU. Well...who won the majority of those battles?
The briefly duel on Boz Pity during the Clone Wars; it seems to be pretty even until Count Dooku has his Magnaguards blindside Mace while Dooku retreats with the CIS forces.
While I agree that Yoda's firmly stronger with the force than Dooku, Dooku does appear to be an incredible fighter, what with his incredible dueling ability that enables him to fight multiple skilled duelists at once and handle himself extremely well, and his incredible concentration that enables him to constantly pull off force attacks with the smallest gesture while simultaneously dueling (this is also largely due to the fact that he duels with one hand). Both qualities can be seen perfectly in his duel with the Ani-Obi duo in RotS, where he's able to deal with the two of them with ease, despite both of them attacking him from either side at one point, and whenever he chooses, he's able to dispose of either quite easily with the force. I personally don't see how Yoda would be able to defeat him with any ease whatsoever, but that's just me.
Oh, I don't deny Count Dooku's level of proficiency at all, nor did I intend to diminish his feats. Hell, a G-canon source confirmed that he was one of the very most powerful Jedi Masters in the Order's 25,000 year history -- he's also recognized as the greatest loss of the Order (moreso than any other of the Lost Twenty) and Yoda himself recognizes Dooku as the Temple's "most learned" student; if one considers it, he may have even been including Mace and himself in that area (that Dooku -- in 80 years -- manages to rival Yoda's own considerable knowledge acquired through 800 years of training is amazing).
But the bottom line is that whenever they've fought, Yoda has never attacked Count Dooku with the intent to kill him. Even in Attack of the Clones, Yoda instructs Mace that Count Dooku "must be captured!" Mace Windu himself was in a position to crush Dooku on Geonosis, and later reflects in Shatterpoint that he lacked the emotional resolve to slay the Count at that point. Even after their duel, Dooku takes advantage of Yoda's unwillingness to kill him by endangering Anakin and Obi-Wan -- knowing full well that Yoda would let him go. Yoda was in a position to kill Dooku. Mace himself was nearby (distracted by three Dark Jedi), and as we know, clonetroopers were on there way. The CIS took a crushing defeat at Geonosis, so the Jedi were in a position to kill Dooku, and if not end the war entirely, deal an undeniable first strike to the Separatist leadership.
And even despite that, Yoda was hellbent on "capturing" him. Some people believe that Yoda would have killed Dooku had he not endangered Anakin and Obi-Wan. Yet one of the Jedi principles involves sacrifice, and they're willing to endanger themselves for the "greater good". Obi-Wan later tells Yoda in the Revenge of the Sith novelization that "if ending the war a day sooner" required him to kill Yoda, he would do it. Yoda responds that "any Jedi" would and should, and Yoda would do the same for Obi-Wan.
The fact that he -- the Order's Grandmaster and leader -- would be willing to sacrifice himself (which would deal a collosal blow to morale) on the mere hope that Dooku could be turned speaks a lot about their relationship.
Yoda still cared for him. And, if he didn't, if he attacked Dooku like he attacked Darth Sidious, Dooku wouldn't have a prayer.
I'm sorry Janus, but this is wrong. If we assume that Yoda goes into this fight with the intent to kill (like he did with Sidious), he will butcher Dooku.
No, it's not. In the Episode III novelisation, Dooku notes that he knows each weakness of the form itself. Even though Yoda's amazing skill makes him head and shoulders above any other Ataru user, Dooku still recognizes the form. I'm not saying he's a better fighter than Yoda, but he's one of the few who could hope to contend with him.
You're also totally ignoring something about the same passage in Dark Rendezvous:
Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground[...]
Page 315.
This is a clear indicator of Dooku's level of fighting at this point. The narration describes only Mace Windu as a possible equal on neutral ground with no advantages either way. Yoda is obviously implied, since he's better than Mace, but I brought this point up because of your assertion that Dooku is somehow less than Mace.
You should also note too that Dooku had chances to kill Yoda twice before Yoda had even begun to fight, and yet he did not. Yoda himself notes it. Dooku fears Yoda because he knows he will never surpass him, and he loves him even though he has essentially betrayed him. But to assume that this fear would override common sense in a pitched Versus battle every single time would be like claiming that in every single fight Luke Skywalker's going to go apeshit and knock Vader around like a pinata.
Dooku is noted as a peer of Mace Windu, who is quite frankly a prodigy among Jedi Masters. I don't think either one of them could stomp Yoda unless they could make him work his wind out (Since Yoda does push his body more than anyone else using the Force. In all his major fights, he becomes exhausted quickly and breathes hard.) But the idea that Yoda stomps him with no effort is silly. It's important to note that during the first part of their duel on Vjun, Dooku is baiting Yoda, not trying to annihilate him. He did a similar thing with Skywalker.
So, what do we know from Dark Rendezvous? Yoda and Dooku aren't really that close in power. Ventress even tries to persuade Dooku to attack Darth Sidious from Vjun -- using dark side power and his CIS armies -- but Dooku was too afraid to (he also expressed the same fear in Labyrinth of Evil).
I seem to recall Dooku being uncertain of his chances for destroying Sidious who is firmly entrenched as the chancellor and has the loyalty of the Republic and its winning army. I don't blame him for not wanting to chance it, since he could stand to lose everything. Dooku never does anything without a contingency plan, in case we've learned nothing from his antics. In AotC, he has one. Dark Rendezvous. Even RotS (Though it wasn't his best, obviously).
Dooku being afraid he might lose doesn't strike me as clear that he would lose. Mace Windu certainly didn't have any major problems putting Sidious on his ass, and he's Dooku's peer by deed and by the words of the novel you cite. Yoda fought an uphill battle with Sidious who, to his credit, managed to keep the green guy at bay while on that tiny center pod. But even then Sidious was saved by a rail on a pod and not by superior saber mastery or Force usage, since Yoda WTFpwned his Sith Lightning and chucked his pod back at him like it was a toy.
I realize I'll probably be buried in a bunch of Sidious-stroking information gleaned from all sorts of sources but the movies themselves citing his uberness and how he's the best thing since Xendor to happen to the dark side, but I've made my point.
Originally posted by Janus MariusNo, most people here agree that Anakin would beat Dooku quickly in a saber duel. And Yoda can beat Dooku quite quickly as well if Yoda wants to.
This isn't correct.Dooku noted that he knew Ataru inside and out, as his master Yoda used it and his own apprentice used it to the highest degree. While I grant that Yoda would win more likely than not, he's not going to curbstomp him either.
As for Anakin, I'm of the opinion that he isn't on the same level of saber mastery as Dooku. Obviously he has more Force potential and physical strength, but I'm not going to boldly say he'll win every single time just because he won in the movie. And if the action gets switched up, Mace would beat Anakin down like the ***** he is.
Janus: Lucas confirmed only Mace and Yoda can contend with Palpatine....Dooku cannot. Also, Dooku was certainly still afraid to go after Palpatine when he was on board with Invisible Hand, I believe
Moreover, it was confirmed by both the visual guide and ROTs novelization that Yoda would have been killed by Palpatine if he continued the battle and elected to flee to be of later help to 'the new hope.'
I will grant besides butchering the three masters, Palpatine is not shown to be altogether proficient from the movies alone, but that's probably Lucas's fault more than anything.
Well I guess that means Windu is infact the best duelist in the order including Yoda. As he forced Sidious into submission and he would have likely killed him had not Anakin showed up and betrayed him (pisses me off that Anakin had not problems killing Dooku but not the man who controlled Dooku like a puppet, dumbass). With the words stating that Yoda would have died if his battle had continued supports this idea/theory of mine.
No, it's not.
Yes, it is.
In the Episode III novelisation, Dooku notes that he knows each weakness of the form itself.
I beg your pardon? Janus, tell me that you aren't quoting Count Dooku himself on the issue, and expect it to hold any water. Dooku -- legendary for hubris and arrogance -- and the exact quote was that he knew the weaknesses of "Ataru and it's ridiculous acrobatics". He obviously has no respect for the form -- despite the fact that it's user made him flee from battle twice; both on Separatist strongholds and one in a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force.
The possibility that Dooku "knew the weaknesses" of the entire form is absolutely irrelevant if he is unable to exploit them.
Even though Yoda's amazing skill makes him head and shoulders above any other Ataru user, Dooku still recognizes the form.
...Your point? General Grievous recognized all seven forms and managed to somewhat duplicate Vaapad (which is proven to be deadlier than Makashi itself). Does that mean he is suddenly able to outduel Mace or Dooku? I should think not, since Obi-Wan readily destroyed him in combat.
I'm not saying he's a better fighter than Yoda, but he's one of the few who could hope to contend with him.
No, Janus, he can't contend with him. We've already proven that Yoda has never fought Dooku on terms that he is looking to kill him or to take him out of the fight permenantly.
You're also totally ignoring something about the same passage in Dark Rendezvous:Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground[...]
Page 315.
Again, what's your point? That means of all the other Jedi, Mace is the only one who is considered his equal. I'm not denying Dooku's own level of proficiency, but Yoda could defeat them both.
This is a clear indicator of Dooku's level of fighting at this point. The narration describes only Mace Windu as a possible equal on neutral ground with no advantages either way.
In sheer bladework alone. And the quote refers to that Mace might be the only one as his equal, not that he is perhaps Mace's equal. Furthermore, Vaapad in and of itself is stated to be the "deadliest form" and given its nature against darksiders, it would be in Mace's favor.
Yoda is obviously implied, since he's better than Mace, but I brought this point up because of your assertion that Dooku is somehow less than Mace.
Dooku certainly isn't superior to Mace in bladework. If memory serves, the last time that they fought, when Dooku instructed his minions to "leave the Jedi to him!" he resolved to allow two Magnaguards to blindside Mace and keep him busy whilst he fled.
You should also note too that Dooku had chances to kill Yoda twice before Yoda had even begun to fight, and yet he did not. Yoda himself notes it.
Dooku was tempted by Yoda to return to the light side. I never denied that Dooku didn't reciprocate Yoda's feelings, but the bottom line is that when it came down to a fight, Dooku sought to kill Yoda, whereas Yoda didn't seek to do the same.
Dooku fears Yoda because he knows he will never surpass him, and he loves him even though he has essentially betrayed him. But to assume that this fear would override common sense in a pitched Versus battle every single time would be like claiming that in every single fight Luke Skywalker's going to go apeshit and knock Vader around like a pinata.
...Am I to assume then, that the disparity between Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos is likewise very slim? Even though no one wanted to screw with Ragnos on his death-bed, by all means, your logic still applies here. Dooku fears Yoda for a reason. It's an acknowledgement of superiority. The circumstances of the fight itself serve to show how far they are in power.
Dooku is noted as a peer of Mace Windu, who is quite frankly a prodigy among Jedi Masters.
Comparing Dooku to Windu is pointless, especially in terms of a fight. Whilst both are prodigies, Windu ultimately wields the deadlier form and -- along with his ability to detect weaknesses - Vaapad's special properties allow it to negate dark side advantages.
I don't think either one of them could stomp Yoda unless they could make him work his wind out (Since Yoda does push his body more than anyone else using the Force. In all his major fights, he becomes exhausted quickly and breathes hard.)
Yoda breathes hard only once (and it was likely a sigh, unless you have a source that confirms exhaustion, in which case I'll concede the point) during his fight with Dooku in AotC. I don't recall him ever doing so with Sidious.
But the idea that Yoda stomps him with no effort is silly.
Who said it was effortless? I said that Yoda would butcher him. Not take a shit on him. But the fact remains, they aren't near-equals like you try to portray.
It's important to note that during the first part of their duel on Vjun, Dooku is baiting Yoda, not trying to annihilate him.
Really, because I could have swore that Dooku professed he will enjoy killing Yoda.
I seem to recall Dooku being uncertain of his chances for destroying Sidious who is firmly entrenched as the chancellor and has the loyalty of the Republic and its winning army.
You would, wouldn't you? That particular topic almost annoys me as much as suggesting that Yoda and Dooku are close -- despite on hand evidence contradicting it. Janus, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. You need to accept it.
In Labyrinth of Evil, when Dooku discovers that the Jedi are hunting Sidious down, he has a moment where he realizes that this information could unearth the Sith Lord's identity and destroy him. He was the one who informed Sidious that the Jedi now had the means to expose him.
Yet for a second, he "imagines the power that could be his" if he didn't tell Sidious. Then he goes ahead and tells him anyway, because he's Sidious's *****.
And he's that way for a damn reason.
I don't blame him for not wanting to chance it, since he could stand to lose everything.
Dooku stood to lose everything before. He risked death on Geonosis. He risked death on Vjun. He risked death with Skywalker and Obi-Wan in Labyrinth of Evil (Anakin nearly crushes him by collapsing a ceiling onto him). Hell, Darth "treachery is the way of the Sith" Tyranus stood to lose everything by associating with Sidious in the first place.
Don't try to pass it off that he was willing to kill Sidious but didn't do so because he "might not" win. He didn't do it because he knew he couldn't.
Dooku never does anything without a contingency plan, in case we've learned nothing from his antics. In AotC, he has one. Dark Rendezvous. Even RotS (Though it wasn't his best, obviously).
And, curious, for some reason, Darth "Treachery is the way of the Sith" Tyranus never tries to betray his master, even when he is in a position to ruin his plans.
Dooku being afraid he might lose doesn't strike me as clear that he would lose.
Yes, but tell me why -- if Dooku fears Sidious -- Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Surely there must be a reason, Janus.
Mace Windu certainly didn't have any major problems putting Sidious on his ass, and he's Dooku's peer by deed and by the words of the novel you cite.
Janus... this is bullshit and you know it. Mace wields the "deadlier" form (confirmed in Shatterpoint). Mace's Vaapad negates dark side advantages (confirmed in the RotS novelization). Dooku fled from Mace and used Magnaguards to keep him distracted. I don't doubt that they're peers in terms of ability, but Vaapad will take whatever Sith-inspired advantage that Dooku has and completely destroy it.
Yoda fought an uphill battle with Sidious who, to his credit, managed to keep the green guy at bay while on that tiny center pod.
An uphill battle? This isn't the half-assed Yoda who battled Dooku, Janus. This is "Destroy-the-Sith-we-must!" Yoda who fought Sidious. The same Sidious who did more than hold him at bay. We can debate that if you like. Sidious is pushed from the central platform in the podium by Yoda, and as the pod ascends, manages to knock Yoda back and take the center again. They fight to an absolute standstill.
But even then Sidious was saved by a rail on a pod and not by superior saber mastery or Force usage,
And certainly not inferior, either.
since Yoda WTFpwned his Sith Lightning and chucked his pod back at him like it was a toy.
"WTFpwned his Sith lightning" and "chucked his pod at him like it was a toy"? Are you seriously debating this objectively? If you'd like to diminish character feats, I'm all game, Janus. The point is that I give Dooku more credit than you ever gave Sidious.
a.) Yoda's grimace of obvious pain contradicts your entire "WTFpwnage" assessment. The fact that Yoda was only able to push the blast directly in between them (he doesn't hit Sidious with it) doesn't speak of superior Force. He wasn't able to overpower Sidious with it, as it detonated right in between them, seemingly nearly equal distance apart.
b.) The pod stuff is also bullshit. Sidious tossed three pods into the air in direct defiance with gravity while laughing his ass off, whereas Yoda struggled to stop one. If you'd like to get absolutely technical, with the pod shit, Sidious came out ahead in the "wow!" department. And he was the only one hurling anything "like a toy".
I realize I'll probably be buried in a bunch of Sidious-stroking information gleaned from all sorts of sources but the movies themselves citing his uberness and how he's the best thing since Xendor to happen to the dark side, but I've made my point.
And we come back to my big question. I don't want to flame you, Janus, and I'm not going to. But, for once, can you argue ****ing objectively or do you still think Dooku is more powerful than Sidious?